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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Those pesky anti-Sicilians (Read 15058 times)
Uberdecker
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #33 - 03/25/06 at 13:54:17
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I must say, this is really a sterile debate. Self-Slayer creates confusion with his inaccuracies ("2. ...g6 against everything" instead of "...g6 against everything" is another example) and then barks at us for not understanding him.
Quite apart from that, I give him several arguments that refute his statements, and he pretends not to have read them.
I agree with Alumbrado. Let's just drop it.

                                                                           
« Last Edit: 03/25/06 at 17:21:58 by Uberdecker »  
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alumbrado
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #32 - 03/24/06 at 15:56:45
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I'm not having a competition with you, dude, I just wanted some clarification.  I had no idea you meant to write Rossolimo.  My original post was actually directed at MNb's attempt to clarify your post (where he quoted you but did not include your comments about 3.c4).  You have created the confusion by getting it wrong, so don't get uptight with me, buddy.

How about we drop it?
  

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Dragonslayer
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #31 - 03/24/06 at 15:44:55
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Dragonslayer wrote on 03/20/06 at 14:45:55:
The little trick 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 assures that Black decides whether to play the Dragon or accelerated Dragon (4...Nc6) having avoided the Maroczy (SHOULD READ ROSSOLIMO). White can try 3.c4 Bg7 4.d4 when 4...cxd4 gives White what he wants. 4...d6 is slightly problematic for Black. 4...Qb6 5.dxc5 Qxc5 again gives the Maroczy structure. This leaves 4...Qa5. Anyone knows if this is any good?...


Ok, so I accidentally wrote Maroczy instead of the intended Rossolimo.
With 2...g6 Black avoids the Rossolimo (Bb5). If you want to aovid the Maroczy one way is the modern defence 1...g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.Nf3 cxd4, but here White can play 3.Nf3 intending 3...c5 4.dxc5. Or, I guess, 3.c4 still hoping for the Maroczy  Wink´

The point is this: Some players like to annoy Black with Bb5(+). 2...g6 avoids this. Now, certain players having been robbed of one chance to avoid complications will go for a Maroczy position with 3.c4. Others will just play 3.d4. In case of this last move I wrote that Black chooses whether to go for a Dragon proper or an accelerated Dragon, which does allow the Marozcy.
Remember, I pointed 3.c4 out, not you Alumbrado.

To Alumbrado: The last part of the quote above from: "White can try 3.c4 Bg7 4.d4" etc. contains every move you wrote in your reply. Why do you insist on debating this? My name-confusion has no bearing whatsoever on this. Why do you insist on obfuscating ths issue by mixing these two seperate things? If you wanted to reply to my post you really should offer something beyond 4...Qa5+. Like 5.Bd2 Qb6 6.Bc3 cxd4 7.Bxd4 Bxd4 8.Qxd4 Qxd4 9.Nxd4 with an even position that White wins because Black will be bored to death.

To Uberdeker: But the point I was making is exactly what you now repeat: With ...g6 Black need not distuinguish between the Alapin and Morra. 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 and 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 comes to the same thing. As does 2.Nf3 g6 3.c3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 or 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.c3 Bg7 etc. Normally after 2.Nf3 Black has to reconcile his choice of third move with what he plays agains the Morra (deferred, i.e. 3.d4 and 4.c3) or Alapin (deferred, i.e. 3.c3). With 2...g6 this all clicks since Black needs only one line against everything.

After 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.e5 Nc6 6.Qa4 Nd5 7.Qe4 Nc7 8.Nc3 Bg7 Black has a solid position.
Regarding the Miles example that makes some sense.

P.S. The habit of calling other people names is normally considered a trait of kids 5-12 years old. It is a bit lamentable if you're an adult.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #30 - 03/24/06 at 08:13:44
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Dragonslayer wrote on 03/23/06 at 16:15:57:
Just to clarify another misreading: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 transposes to a Dragon proper. 4...Nc6 is the accelerated Dragon. I am well aware of the shortcomings of the Semi-accelerated Dragon with 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6?! 6.Nxc6.

That is exactly what I was still wondering about. I play Maroczy against the accelerated (and dont mind a dragon at all), so I would be very interested to know how you bypass it, especially since at my club we have one accelerated dragon player, who has now tried about every move-order against me to avoid the Maroczy.
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 and now 5 c4 is the Maroczy, while the other line with 4 .. Nf6 transposes to a dragon or the line you refer to as semi-accelerated.

PS I agree about the 2 a3 g6 line.
  

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alumbrado
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #29 - 03/23/06 at 22:25:44
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Dragonslayer wrote on 03/23/06 at 16:15:57:
To Alumbrado: I suggest you reread my post. It contains everything in your post. I do not claim that 2...g6 guarantees Black a standard Dragon, just as little as 2...d6 does.



Well, what you said, as Willempie pointed out, was that "The little trick 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 assures that Black decides whether to play the Dragon or accelerated Dragon (4...Nc6) having avoided the Maroczy."

I repeat, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4 Black does not get to make that choice - he cannot play a standard Dragon - he can only play the Maroczy Accelerated Dragon (which you claim to have avoided) or something else entirely.  So, rather than me re-read your post, I suggest you re-write it.
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #28 - 03/23/06 at 21:40:18
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Dear Self-Slayer,

Such aggressiveness!
I was merely drawing your attention to the fact that 2. ...g6 ("!") is not as you claim "the real test" of 2.a3. That would be moves such as 2. ...e6 and 2. ...Ktc6 which control the -b4 square and if White does not push his -b pawn (obviously his intended plan), then indeed 2. a3 will look somewhat like a beginner's move (although note that in several Open Sicilian variations, a3 can be played to prevent ...Bb4 or ...b5-b4. Here White has shown his hand rather early, so Black may steer the game into lines that are good for him, should White follow up with d4).

You may find some interest in the following quote of Tony Miles' (one of the first and greatest exponents of your beloved Dragon) with reference to the postion after 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. Ktf3 g6 ; 4. a3 (!? Tony Miles) :
"Of course a3 followed by b4 is quite a natural positional method of attacking a 'Sicilian centre'. I had considered it myself. the problem is that White cannot exert enough influence over -b4 itself to get the advance in. [u]But with the black bishop committed to -g7 it becomes possible[/u]"
The exact opposite of your reasoning!

Apparently I  didn't understand which line you employ against the Morra, and I still don't. Is it 2. d4 g6 giving White the possiblity of 3. d5, transposing to a promising line of the Schmidt Benoni instead of losing a pawn?
Or is it the more reasonable 2. ...cd ; 3. c3 g6, transposing to the 2. ...g6 Alapin?
In this case, you needn't have mentioned the Morra, which we all know has no (or very little) independant significance, since Black has the option of transposing to most variations against the Alapin.

As for 2. Ktf3 g6 ; 3. d4 cd I maintain that 4. Qxd4 ( 4. ...Ktf6 ; 5. e5) is the critical test of Black's [i]move-order[/i], but not necessarily stronger than the main lines of the Yugoslav Attack or Maroczy Bind. It is because of 4. Qxd4 that many players prefer 3. ...Bg7.

Hope this has clarified a few things for you.

                                                                                  Regards,
                                                                                        UD
« Last Edit: 03/24/06 at 11:11:50 by Uberdecker »  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #27 - 03/23/06 at 16:15:57
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Oh Dear, oh dear!

So I critisize the idea of writing a whole book on a line like 1.e4 c5 2.a3 and people fall all over me like I had said something bad about the Prophet. I case you (Uberdecker) want to refute my argument, then I suggest you refute MY argument, and not your own. My argument is that after 2...g6 there really arent's a lot of lines where 2.a3 is useful. NOT that it prevents b2-b4 (that is YOUR argument, not MINE). This is one of the oldest tricks in the book. A certain TN on these pages is very good at such arguments.

Apparently critizising 2.a3 also leads to people (deliberately or not) misreading the other part of my post. Where did I day that I wanted to ACCEPT the Smith-Morra gambit? If you read what I wrote you will see that it says that "...g6 is a handy reply to the Morra gambit". E.g.: 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 g6 4.cxd4 (or 4.Nf3 Bg7) 4...d5! transposing to 2.c3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.cxd4.

Btw: If you read carefully in Silman and Donaldson's book on the accelerated Dragons you will see that Burgess (as editor) there contradicts his own book on the Morra and gives two lines against the Morra with ...g6 that are =+. Incidentally I do not agree with those lines, and I rather like White's chances against the ...g6 defences in the Morra ACCEPTED.

Just to clarify another misreading: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 d6 transposes to a Dragon proper. 4...Nc6 is the accelerated Dragon. I am well aware of the shortcomings of the Semi-accelerated Dragon with 4...Nf6 5.Nc3 Nc6?! 6.Nxc6.

So I "should get my main lines straightened out"? You know, thrashing other people's opinions, usually by references to some authority, ancient theory or some book, is getting tiring. Why should 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 be more critical than the standard Dragon? Where is this written? I certainly wasn't there when this was passed as law.
FYI In eXperts vs. the Sicilian John Shaw agrees that 2...g6 is a perfectly ok way to reach either variety of Dragon.
You may be scared of 2...g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.e5 or 5.Nc3 or maybe 5.Bb5? (Telling us which one would constitute an argument, instead of just rhetorics), but I am certainly not.

Really what Black must chose between is whether to allow the 3.Bb5(+) ,line (in case of 2...d6 or 2...Nc6) or give White the chance to play Qxd4. I prefer the latter.

To Alumbrado: I suggest you reread my post. It contains everything in your post. I do not claim that 2...g6 guarantees Black a standard Dragon, just as little as 2...d6 does.
  
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Uberdeker(Guest)
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #26 - 03/22/06 at 10:39:24
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Dear MNb,

Re-read the quote. It is quite complete. You have criticized my bias against White's chances, but failed to come up with anything remotely resembling compensation. I maintain that 4. ...g6 gives White a fair sporting chance, which, in my opinion, is more than he deserves.

                                               Regards,
                                                     Hubert
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #25 - 03/22/06 at 09:24:00
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MNb wrote on 03/22/06 at 02:12:05:
If I understand Dragonslayer well, he means that Black avoids either the Maroczy or the Standard Dragon. 5.Nc3 d6 avoids the first.



All well and good but what if White plays 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.c4!? ?  There are some tricky lines after 3...Bg7 4.d4 which avoid transposition to the Accelerated Dragon/Maroczy bind (4...Qa5† springs to mind) but Black is certainly not getting a standard Dragon.
  

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MNb
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #24 - 03/22/06 at 02:12:05
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If I understand Dragonslayer well, he means that Black avoids either the Maroczy or the Standard Dragon. 5.Nc3 d6 avoids the first.

@Uberdeker
In the same thread I have criticized your bias against White's chances. Moreover your quote is incomplete: it should have been "White's compensation is not that clear." This means, that Black has serious chances to survive White's initiative with a material plus. So 4...g6 is about as good as the defences you mentioned. In all these defences White must work hard to prove, that his compensation is sufficient.
  

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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #23 - 03/21/06 at 11:59:31
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Dragonslayer wrote on 03/20/06 at 14:45:55:
The little trick 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 assures that Black decides whether to play the Dragon or accelerated Dragon (4...Nc6) having avoided the Maroczy.

How exactly are you going to avoid returning to a standard dragon after 5 Nc3?
-5 .. Nc6 6 Nxc6 doesnt look very comfy
-5 .. Bg7 6 e5 also doesnt look very nice to me.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Uberdeker(Guest)
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #22 - 03/21/06 at 11:36:25
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[quote author=MNb link=1132197040/15#21 date=1142904757In some lines White's compensation is not that clear.
4...g6 is as good as many other defences against the Morra Gambit. [/quote]

Everything is relative. In the Smith-Morra, "not that clear" and is not what I consider to be satisfactory for Black. He has at his disposal several very strong lines such as 4. ...Ktc6 ;
5. Ktf3 d6 ; 6. Bc4 a6 ; 7. 0-0 Ktf6 (which has been discussed elsewhere in this section) and even in the "Old Main Line" 6. ...e6 ; 7. 0-0 Ktf6 ; 8. Qe2 a6 ; 9. Rfd1 Qc7 ; 10. Bf4 Black has 10. ...Ktd7!? ; 11. Rac1 Be7 ; 12. Bb3 Qb8 when he should manage to unravel while retaining his extra pawn.

  
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MNb
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #21 - 03/21/06 at 01:32:37
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"But 4. ...g6 against the Smith-Morra is just about the only line that is NOT satisfactory for Black."
1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Nxc3 g6 (more precise than Nc6 5.Nf3 g6 6.h4!?) 5.Nf3 Bg7 6.Bc4 Nc6 7.e5 and now Nh6, Nxe5 and Qa5 are risky, but playable. In some lines White's compensation is not that clear. Three samples:

a)7...Nh6 8.Bf4 o-o 9.o-o Kh8 10.Re1 a6 (Nf5!?) 11.Qd2 Ng8 12.Ng5 Nh6 13.Re3 (13.Nf3 Ng8 draw) b5 14.Bd5 f6!?
b)7...Nxe5 8.Nxe5 Bxe5 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.Qd5+ Kg7 11.Qxe5+ Nf6 12.Qe3 Rf8 13.h4 d5 Moore-Swaime, 1986.
c)7...Qa5 8.o-o Nxe5 9.Nxe5 Bxe5 (Qxe5 10.Nd5 Kf8!? 11.Re1 Qd4 Corbin-Mera Cedeno,1999 is also unclear) 10.Nd5 (10.Re1 d6 11.Bb5+ Kf8!?) e6 11.Re1 d6 12.Bb5+ Kf8 13.Rxe5 and after both dxe5 and Qxb5 White's compensation is convincing.
4...g6 is as good as many other defences against the Morra Gambit.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Uberdeker(Guest)
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #20 - 03/20/06 at 16:17:32
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Dear Self-Slayer,

Actually 2. a3 is a definite improvement over the Wing-Gambit 2. b4 (admitedly this isn't saying much). I don't share your view that 2. ...g6 is THE answer to White's conception.
It doesn't prevent 3. b4 (3. ...Bg7 ; 4. Ktc3) and in fact a much sterner test is to keep the bishop on the f8-a3 diagonal, as pushing the -b pawn then involves a gambit (although the positions that arise still offer more compensation than 2. b4).
I find your fondness of 2. ...g6 against anything rather touching, but you must keep in mind that the strongest Sicilian repertoire is a flexible one. For example I, who never play the main lines of the Dragon as Black, occasionaly revert to 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. Ktge2 g6 in an attempt to punish White for his annoying move-order (another interesting line is 3. ...d6 and if 4. g3 only now 4. ...g6 ; 5. d4 cd etc. / 4. d4 can be met by 4. ...cd ; 5. Ktxd4 e5!?). Here I agree with you, the 5. Ktc3 Accelerated Dragon should give Black good play.
But 4. ...g6 against the Smith-Morra is just about the only line that is NOT satisfactory for Black.
Also, you might want to get your main-lines straightend out. The critical reply to both
2. Ktf3 g6 and 2. Ktc3 g6 is 3. d4 cd ; 4. Qxd4

                                                           Regards,
                                                             Hubert
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Those pesky anti-Sicilians
Reply #19 - 03/20/06 at 14:45:55
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I have Rogozenkos book and it almost useless to me since I play 2...g6. I guess if I want a book about that I would have to write it myself. Anyway:

2.a3 g6! makes White's second look like a beginner's move. I never ceases to amaze me that people write books, where they spend 200 pages thrashing inferior defences and then they give the real test 2-3 pages. There is no need for a book on 2.a3 because 2...g6 is at least equal for Black and if everyone knows this why bother with all the other reponses? A pamphlet of 5 pages would suffice.

2...g6 is quite handy against the Morra-gambit, the c3-Sicilian, King's Indian attack and Closed Sicilian. Even 2.Nc3 g6 is playable.

The little trick 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 assures that Black decides whether to play the Dragon or accelerated Dragon (4...Nc6) having avoided the Maroczy. White can try 3.c4 Bg7 4.d4 when 4...cxd4 gives White what he wants. 4...d6 is slightly problematic for Black. 4...Qb6 5.dxc5 Qxc5 again gives the Maroczy structure. This leaves 4...Qa5. Anyone knows if this is any good? (Does this question belong in the Open Sicilian?)
  
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