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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!? (Read 4217 times)
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #14 - 04/04/06 at 07:48:13
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To answer my own question Wink:
He DOES recommend 4.g3 AND THEN 5.d4... (see TOC at https://www.schachversand.de)
which I guess is still according to his own general recommendation...
  
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #13 - 04/02/06 at 20:58:20
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alumbrado wrote on 03/23/06 at 14:22:12:
With White comitted to 3.g3, Black does better to avoid ...Nc6 and apply immediate pressure to c4 with an early ...Qc7.  Khalifman devotes some time to showing that black can get away with this, and hence recommends d2-d4 only in positions where Black cannot play like this.

Thus after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5, he recommends 3.Nc3, whereas after 1...c5 2.c4 Nc6, he gives 3.d4


Does that mean that he recommends 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nc3 Nc6 4.d4
...or 4.g3!? (as I think was Kramnik's actual choice)
  
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #12 - 03/30/06 at 03:09:23
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iggystiv wrote on 03/26/06 at 06:03:48:
Take a look.

[Event "Amber Rapid"]
[Site "Monte Carlo MNC"]
[Date "2006.03.25"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Gelfand,B"]
[Black "Van Wely,L"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2723"]
[BlackElo "2647"]
[EventDate "2006.03.18"]
[ECO "E20"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. g3 Qc7 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Bg2 Qxc4
8. O-O Nc6 9. Ndb5 O-O 10. Bf4 Bxc3 11. Nd6 Qc5 12. Rc1 Nd5 13. Bxd5 Qxd5
14. Qxd5 exd5 15. Rxc3 b6 16. Rd1 d4 17. Ra3 a5 18. Nxc8 Rfxc8 19. Rb3 Ra6
20. Rb5 f6 21. h4 h6 22. h5 a4 23. g4 Re8 24. Kf1 Re4 25. e3 dxe3 26. fxe3
Re7 27. Kf2 Kf7 28. Bd6 Re4 29. Kf3 Rc4 30. Bf4 Ke6 31. Rbd5 Ra7 32. Rb5
Rb7 33. Rd6+ Ke7 34. Rd2 Ke8 35. Bd6 Kf7 36. Bf4 Rc5 37. Rd5 Rxd5 38. Rxd5
b5 39. Rc5 Ke6 40. Ke4 Nb4 41. a3 Nc6 42. Rd5 Na5 43. Rd6+ Kf7 44. Rd2 Nc4
45. Rc2 Ke6 46. Kd4 d6 47. e4 Rc7 48. Bd2 Rc6 49. Bf4 Ne5 50. Rxc6 Nxc6+
51. Kc3 d5 52. exd5+ Kxd5 53. b3 axb3 54. Kxb3 Ne5 55. Kb4 Nd3+ 56. Kxb5
Nxf4 57. a4 Kd6 58. Kb6 f5 59. gxf5 Nxh5 60. a5 Nf6 61. a6 Nd5+ 0-1


Actually, it looks to me like White was doing rather well as far as 22. h5.  But White has other moves, notably 6. Nd2.

Concerning the other line I posted about here, 5...Qb6 6. Bg2 Bc5  7. e3 Nc6, White's most enterprising is the gambit 8. O-O!? with very interesting play.
  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #11 - 03/27/06 at 14:20:57
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iggystiv wrote on 03/26/06 at 06:03:48:
Take a look.

[Event "Amber Rapid"]
[Site "Monte Carlo MNC"]
[Date "2006.03.25"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Gelfand,B"]
[Black "Van Wely,L"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2723"]
[BlackElo "2647"]
[EventDate "2006.03.18"]
[ECO "E20"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. g3 Qc7 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Bg2 Qxc4
8. O-O Nc6 9. Ndb5 O-O 10. Bf4 Bxc3 11. Nd6 Qc5 12. Rc1 Nd5 13. Bxd5 Qxd5
14. Qxd5 exd5 15. Rxc3 b6 16. Rd1 d4 17. Ra3 a5 18. Nxc8 Rfxc8 19. Rb3 Ra6
20. Rb5 f6 21. h4 h6 22. h5 a4 23. g4 Re8 24. Kf1 Re4 25. e3 dxe3 26. fxe3
Re7 27. Kf2 Kf7 28. Bd6 Re4 29. Kf3 Rc4 30. Bf4 Ke6 31. Rbd5 Ra7 32. Rb5
Rb7 33. Rd6+ Ke7 34. Rd2 Ke8 35. Bd6 Kf7 36. Bf4 Rc5 37. Rd5 Rxd5 38. Rxd5
b5 39. Rc5 Ke6 40. Ke4 Nb4 41. a3 Nc6 42. Rd5 Na5 43. Rd6+ Kf7 44. Rd2 Nc4
45. Rc2 Ke6 46. Kd4 d6 47. e4 Rc7 48. Bd2 Rc6 49. Bf4 Ne5 50. Rxc6 Nxc6+
51. Kc3 d5 52. exd5+ Kxd5 53. b3 axb3 54. Kxb3 Ne5 55. Kb4 Nd3+ 56. Kxb5
Nxf4 57. a4 Kd6 58. Kb6 f5 59. gxf5 Nxh5 60. a5 Nf6 61. a6 Nd5+ 0-1



Interesting, thanks.  Actually, notwithstanding the outcome of this game, I find it rather encouraging that White's side of this is taken up by likes of Boris Gelfand.
  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #10 - 03/27/06 at 14:18:02
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Markovich wrote on 03/23/06 at 14:07:00:
ErictheRed wrote on 11/21/05 at 14:32:39:
Hi guys, I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I was wondering if there's much info on the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?.  I ask this because I like to play the Catalan as White against QGD and Nimzo players, but against the Benoni I don't like to fianchetto my king bishop.

Besides other options, I know that Black can try 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3 cd 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5!, i.e. 7.Nc2 d4, which scores very well for Black in practice.  I was wondering if I could turn 4. Nf3 into a genuine anti-Benoni weapon (instead of playing 4.d5) and was curious as to the state of theory after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?.  Thanks!


I share your interest in this line.  After 4...cxd4  5. Nxd4, the theory is unfortunately split up between the "Catalan" 5...d5  6. Bg2 e5  7. Nf3 and the "English" everything else.  Also it is quite irksome that the Catalan theory books, for the most part, completely ignore this and assume 3...d5.  One thing worth observing is that 4...cxd4  5. Nxd4 Nc6  6. Nc3 reaches a position considered in great depth in "White According to Krammnik" (sorry, I forget which volume).   

In a recent CC game I faced (after 5. Nxd4) 5...Qb6  6. Bg2 Bc5  7. e3 Nc6 8. Nb3 Bb4+ and I could not find enough play for the win.  Thus cornstalk-martijn, corr, net-chess 2005 continued  9. Bd2 Ne5  10. Qc2 d5  11. cxd5 Nxd5  12. Nc3 Nxc3  13. Bxc3 Bd7  14. 0-0 Rc8  15. Qe4 Bxc3  16. bxc3 Qc7 17. Qxb7 Qxb7  18. Bxb7 Rd7  19. Bg2 (my original idea had been 19. Ba6 "+=", but 19...Nf3+ 20. Kg2 Bc6 defends completely) 19... Ke7  20. Rfd1 1/2-1/2.   I would be very happy if someone could suggest an improvement on my play in this game.  Assuming that White wants the full point, I think that this line is perhaps the most challenging to 4. Nf3.


It's remains a game, of course, but I think that 12. O-O Bd7  13. Qe4 was a better attempt to preserve White's += birthright.  For example, 13...Bd6  14. Nc3 Nxc3  15. Bxc3 Bc6  16. Qd4 Bxg2  17. Kxg2 with a position where White has some pull.
  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #9 - 03/26/06 at 06:03:48
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Take a look.

[Event "Amber Rapid"]
[Site "Monte Carlo MNC"]
[Date "2006.03.25"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Gelfand,B"]
[Black "Van Wely,L"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2723"]
[BlackElo "2647"]
[EventDate "2006.03.18"]
[ECO "E20"]

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 e6 5. g3 Qc7 6. Nc3 Bb4 7. Bg2 Qxc4
8. O-O Nc6 9. Ndb5 O-O 10. Bf4 Bxc3 11. Nd6 Qc5 12. Rc1 Nd5 13. Bxd5 Qxd5
14. Qxd5 exd5 15. Rxc3 b6 16. Rd1 d4 17. Ra3 a5 18. Nxc8 Rfxc8 19. Rb3 Ra6
20. Rb5 f6 21. h4 h6 22. h5 a4 23. g4 Re8 24. Kf1 Re4 25. e3 dxe3 26. fxe3
Re7 27. Kf2 Kf7 28. Bd6 Re4 29. Kf3 Rc4 30. Bf4 Ke6 31. Rbd5 Ra7 32. Rb5
Rb7 33. Rd6+ Ke7 34. Rd2 Ke8 35. Bd6 Kf7 36. Bf4 Rc5 37. Rd5 Rxd5 38. Rxd5
b5 39. Rc5 Ke6 40. Ke4 Nb4 41. a3 Nc6 42. Rd5 Na5 43. Rd6+ Kf7 44. Rd2 Nc4
45. Rc2 Ke6 46. Kd4 d6 47. e4 Rc7 48. Bd2 Rc6 49. Bf4 Ne5 50. Rxc6 Nxc6+
51. Kc3 d5 52. exd5+ Kxd5 53. b3 axb3 54. Kxb3 Ne5 55. Kb4 Nd3+ 56. Kxb5
Nxf4 57. a4 Kd6 58. Kb6 f5 59. gxf5 Nxh5 60. a5 Nf6 61. a6 Nd5+ 0-1
  
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #8 - 03/24/06 at 18:47:04
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alumbrado wrote on 03/24/06 at 16:03:58:
I actually think of it as a fairly mainstream idea (and common sense) to play for e2-e4 against the Stonewall.  I do quite like the Queen's Indian and Hedgehog lines he gives as well, although I don't think White has anything more than a pull (not even really +=, just slightly more comfortable for W).

Incidentally, the 'true' OfWAtK approach would be 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 (since Khalif does not wish to permit 3.g3 d5! and a Réti or Catalan). 


Interesting, thanks.
  

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alumbrado
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #7 - 03/24/06 at 16:03:58
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I actually think of it as a fairly mainstream idea (and common sense) to play for e2-e4 against the Stonewall.  I do quite like the Queen's Indian and Hedgehog lines he gives as well, although I don't think White has anything more than a pull (not even really +=, just slightly more comfortable for W).

Incidentally, the 'true' OfWAtK approach would be 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 (since Khalif does not wish to permit 3.g3 d5! and a Réti or Catalan).  
  

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Markovich
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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #6 - 03/24/06 at 13:29:48
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alumbrado wrote on 03/23/06 at 22:40:49:
Markovich wrote on 03/23/06 at 16:41:44:
 

Since, however, you've said here that you're a Catalan player, what do you do about 1...Nf6, 2...e6?  Allow the Queen's Indian?   The tricky part about having the Catalan in your repertoire is that you can't play 3. Nc3 against the Nimzo. 

Part of the appeal of playing 3. g3 c5  4. Nc3 is that you can also play the "anti-Benoni"  1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 c5  3. Nf3 and pretty well expect transpositions into your pet variations.


Well, I play 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 and get to the Catalan that way, if at all.  I'm happy to play the Queen's Indian and Hedgehog lines with White after 3...b6 or 3...c5.  The Catalan is, as you say, *part* of my repertoire - I don't aim to get to it at all costs.



Since that appears to be a page straight from Khalifman's book, may I ask, do you have any confidence in his recommendations against the Queen's Indian and Dutch Stonewall systems?  As you will be aware, in each case he withholds d2-d4 and plays for e2-e4.  I would appreciate hearing your opinion of these particular ideas, since they smell a little bit funny to me.  I don't think they look like bad chess, exactly, it's just that they are so unusual.
  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #5 - 03/23/06 at 22:40:49
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Markovich wrote on 03/23/06 at 16:41:44:
 

Since, however, you've said here that you're a Catalan player, what do you do about 1...Nf6, 2...e6?  Allow the Queen's Indian?   The tricky part about having the Catalan in your repertoire is that you can't play 3. Nc3 against the Nimzo. 

Part of the appeal of playing 3. g3 c5  4. Nc3 is that you can also play the "anti-Benoni"  1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 c5  3. Nf3 and pretty well expect transpositions into your pet variations.


Well, I play 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 and get to the Catalan that way, if at all.  I'm happy to play the Queen's Indian and Hedgehog lines with White after 3...b6 or 3...c5.  The Catalan is, as you say, *part* of my repertoire - I don't aim to get to it at all costs.
  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #4 - 03/23/06 at 16:41:44
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alumbrado wrote on 03/23/06 at 14:22:12:
With White comitted to 3.g3, Black does better to avoid ...Nc6 and apply immediate pressure to c4 with an early ...Qc7.  Khalifman devotes some time to showing that black can get away with this, and hence recommends d2-d4 only in positions where Black cannot play like this.

Thus after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5, he recommends 3.Nc3, whereas after 1...c5 2.c4 Nc6, he gives 3.d4


Yes indeed, and I read that argument of Khalifman's with some interest.  However, I think that White does have interesting play in those ...Qc7 lines.  For one thing, just gambiting the c4 pawn is dangerous.  For another, just lumbering ahead with Nbd2 is not all that bad, I opine. 

Since, however, you've said here that you're a Catalan player, what do you do about 1...Nf6, 2...e6?  Allow the Queen's Indian?   The tricky part about having the Catalan in your repertoire is that you can't play 3. Nc3 against the Nimzo. 

Part of the appeal of playing 3. g3 c5  4. Nc3 is that you can also play the "anti-Benoni"  1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 c5  3. Nf3 and pretty well expect transpositions into your pet variations.
  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #3 - 03/23/06 at 14:22:12
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With White comitted to 3.g3, Black does better to avoid ...Nc6 and apply immediate pressure to c4 with an early ...Qc7.  Khalifman devotes some time to showing that black can get away with this, and hence recommends d2-d4 only in positions where Black cannot play like this.

Thus after 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 c5, he recommends 3.Nc3, whereas after 1...c5 2.c4 Nc6, he gives 3.d4
  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #2 - 03/23/06 at 14:07:00
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ErictheRed wrote on 11/21/05 at 14:32:39:
Hi guys, I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I was wondering if there's much info on the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?.  I ask this because I like to play the Catalan as White against QGD and Nimzo players, but against the Benoni I don't like to fianchetto my king bishop.

Besides other options, I know that Black can try 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3 cd 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5!, i.e. 7.Nc2 d4, which scores very well for Black in practice.  I was wondering if I could turn 4. Nf3 into a genuine anti-Benoni weapon (instead of playing 4.d5) and was curious as to the state of theory after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?.  Thanks!


I share your interest in this line.  After 4...cxd4  5. Nxd4, the theory is unfortunately split up between the "Catalan" 5...d5  6. Bg2 e5  7. Nf3 and the "English" everything else.  Also it is quite irksome that the Catalan theory books, for the most part, completely ignore this and assume 3...d5.  One thing worth observing is that 4...cxd4  5. Nxd4 Nc6  6. Nc3 reaches a position considered in great depth in "White According to Krammnik" (sorry, I forget which volume).   

In a recent CC game I faced (after 5. Nxd4) 5...Qb6  6. Bg2 Bc5  7. e3 Nc6 8. Nb3 Bb4+ and I could not find enough play for the win.  Thus cornstalk-martijn, corr, net-chess 2005 continued  9. Bd2 Ne5  10. Qc2 d5  11. cxd5 Nxd5  12. Nc3 Nxc3  13. Bxc3 Bd7  14. 0-0 Rc8  15. Qe4 Bxc3  16. bxc3 Qc7 17. Qxb7 Qxb7  18. Bxb7 Rd7  19. Bg2 (my original idea had been 19. Ba6 "+=", but 19...Nf3+ 20. Kg2 Bc6 defends completely) 19... Ke7  20. Rfd1 1/2-1/2.   I would be very happy if someone could suggest an improvement on my play in this game.  Assuming that White wants the full point, I think that this line is perhaps the most challenging to 4. Nf3.
« Last Edit: 03/24/06 at 03:16:29 by Markovich »  

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Re: 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
Reply #1 - 11/22/05 at 08:44:58
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The Anti-Benoni-lines of the Symmetrical English, by transposition....
  
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?
11/21/05 at 14:32:39
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Hi guys, I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this, but I was wondering if there's much info on the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?.  I ask this because I like to play the Catalan as White against QGD and Nimzo players, but against the Benoni I don't like to fianchetto my king bishop.

Besides other options, I know that Black can try 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3 cd 5.Nxd4 d5 6.Bg2 e5!, i.e. 7.Nc2 d4, which scores very well for Black in practice.  I was wondering if I could turn 4. Nf3 into a genuine anti-Benoni weapon (instead of playing 4.d5) and was curious as to the state of theory after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 c5 4.Nf3!?.  Thanks!
  
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