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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) A new look at the London System (Read 9562 times)
BladezII
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #23 - 01/24/06 at 16:27:08
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Tafl,

I am glad you had a look at that line.  I had been working on that line and in the early morning on Saturday, before I left to my indoor soccer game, I was inspired to do the maneuver with the Queen (Qe8...) and decided to work the plan or to see if it was workable.  I have looked at many branches and Black looks good.

GM Prie,
Have you had a look at the line Tafl and I are discussing?  I think this is a rather unique idea for Black against the variation posted by Tafle vs ....Nh5.

Any ideas would be truly welcome.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #22 - 01/24/06 at 09:18:35
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His 3...Nc6 recommendation is interesting. There is however something strange after 4.Nc3 cxd4 5.exd5 dxc3 6.dxc6 Qxd1+ 7.Rxd1 when he says that 7...dxc6, which is illegal, is equal. I assume he means the natural 7...bxc6, but then a word or two about Johnsen/Kovacevic' 8.Bc7!? would have been helpful.


I had intended to reply to you Tafl to say that the answer was already planned in the original 3.Nc3 Zichichi's game of December's update but the whole Forum diseappered then!
Hope it satisfied your expectations...

Next february's update will finish with the subject including an exhaustive review of the book. Do not miss it!
It is absolutely essential for the Londoner ( against 1...d5!) to hear both sides of the story!
  
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #21 - 12/08/05 at 02:45:22
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Yes, I am still interested.

But I have two dead-lines approaching that will take most of my time until Monday. So I need some time to conclude my analysis. So far I can only say this:

1) I am still looking at 14.Qf3, but 14...Qe8 is a surprisingly strong move. If Black can coordinate his forces before White's kingside pawns become too strong and can do so without exchanging too many pieces, he will normally have the better chances. Not so much because of the material situation but because White has trouble finding a safe place for his king.

2) I may have to backtrack and look at other 14th moves or even go back to the position after 9...g6, and try the safe 10.Ndf3. But I will do so reluctantly as that would to some extent admit that 9...g6 is a valid try.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #20 - 12/07/05 at 22:25:31
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Tafl, are you still interested in this ?
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #19 - 12/06/05 at 22:36:22
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The problem with 14.Qf3 is 14... Qe8, when Black will place his Queen on g6 and it takes a commanding position.  If White decides to place his king on the Q side with 0-0-0 Black has a ready attack with ...Bd7 ....b5-b4 ....Rc8  and the Qg6 takes a fantastic diagonal to White's King, and the Nc6 can play Nb4 or Na5. 

So what do you suggest will save White or, if you still think White is better than this, what do you suggest is a good way for white to proceed?  I am eager to know.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #18 - 12/06/05 at 01:57:56
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@BladezII

I must quote Bent Larsen: Long analysis - wrong analysis (no offense intended)

After 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 e6 4.Nf3 c5 5.c3 Nc6 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.Bg3 0-0 8.Bd3 Nh5 9.Ne5 g6 10.f4 f6 11.Bxg6 hxg6 12.Nxg6 Ng7 13.Nxf8 Bxf8, I agree that White's correct plan should be to push his h-pawn. But I would like to develop a little first, so I prefer 14.Qf3.

Then, of course, Black has many options. But natural attempts to develop and break the centre open seem to fail, e.g. 14...cxd4 15.exd4 Qb6 16.Rb1 Bd7 (16...Nf5!?) 17.h4 Re8 18.h5 e5 19.fxe5 fxe5 20.0-0 Bf5 (20...Be6 21.h6 Nf5 22.Qh5+-) 21.h6+-.

This obviously is only a sample line. At some point you simply have to break it off and evaluate instead of calculating further. But I am eager to see your improvement after 14.Qf3.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #17 - 12/05/05 at 22:07:22
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@ Tafl

I have looked at option C) for some time--

Here is what I have and it was nice to see that we coincided in one of the lines and I will post it.  I have explored other options for White as well which are not as risky as the one you took, but which still tries to push for an edge.



1. d4 d5
2. Nf3 e6
3. Bf4 c5
4. c3 Nc6
5. e3 Bd6
6. Bg3  Nf6
7. Nbd2 O-O
8. Bd3 Nh5
9. Ne5 g6
10. f4 f6
11. Bxg6

(11. Nxg6 hxg6 12. Bxg6 Ng7 13. Bf2 e5 {Black exposes White's King by opening up the center.})

11... hxg6
12. Nxg6 Ng7
13. Nxf8 Bxf8
14. h4

(14. Qe2 cxd4 15. exd4 Qe8 16. h4 Qh5 17. Qxh5 Nxh5 18.Bh2 Bd6 19. Rf1 f5 20. Ke2 b6 21. Ke3 Ba6)

14... Qb6
15. h5 Qxb2
16. Rc1 Kh7
17. Bf2 e5
18. dxe5 fxe5
19. Rc2 Qb5
20. g4 Qd3
21. Rg1 exf4
22. Nf3 Qxd1+
23.Kxd1 fxe3
24. Bxe3 Be7
25. Rh2 Be6
26. g5 Bd6
27. g6+ Kg8
28. Rhh1

(28. h6 Bxh2 29. Nxh2 d4)

28... Nf5
29. Bg5 Kg7
30. h6+ Kxg6
31. Be7+ Kf7
32. Bxd6 Nxd6
33.h7 Rh8
34. Ng5+ Ke7
35. Re1 Ne4
36. Nxe4 dxe4
37. Rxe4 Kd7

Black looks good with ideas of ...Bf5, Ne5 and also push his pawns on the Q side up.  White may draw, but ...  I think the onus in this line is on White, not Black.

Improvements or changes for White here? or Black?
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #16 - 12/05/05 at 07:49:21
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I note with pleasure that Prie takes a look at the 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e4 gambit in the d-pawn special update.

I would have loved to see a comment on 5...a6 6.a4!? but I assume we must wait for practical OTB tests (and 6.Qe2 seems to be doing fine).

His 3...Nc6 recommendation is interesting. There is however something strange after 4.Nc3 cxd4 5.exd5 dxc3 6.dxc6 Qxd1+ 7.Rxd1 when he says that 7...dxc6, which is illegal, is equal. I assume he means the natural 7...bxc6, but then a word or two about Johnsen/Kovacevic' 8.Bc7!? would have been helpful.

  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #15 - 12/05/05 at 06:50:41
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Quote:
7...   O-O 
8. Bd3 Nh5 

Black seems to get a good game game here but none of this is mentioned anywhere.  I have my own material on this, some of it goes past move 30.  White has wasted time with his dark bishop so this time taken by Black is compensated or paid back by White.  Any champions for White here? 


I posted a reply to this just before the server crashed. I try to repeat it before doing any new analysis.

MY PRE-CRASH REPLY
In contrast to your previous suggestions (among them 8...Qe7), 8...Nh5 looks distinctly suspicious. So I spent some time looking for an outright refutation. I didn't find a very clearcut one, but after 9.Ne5, Black at least has practical problems. Unless Black plays 9...Nf6, he has the following options:
a) 9...Nxg3?? 10.Bxh7+ Kh8 11.hxg3+-
b) 9...Bxe5? 10.Bxh7+ Kxh7 11.Qxh5+ Kg8 12.dxe5 +/-
c) 9...g6 looks weakening. After 10.f4 cxd4 (10...f6?! 11.Bxg6 should come to the same) 11.exd4 f6?! (Black probably should try 11...Qb6 or 11...Qc7) 12.Bxg6 fxe5 13.Qxh5 hxg6 14.Qxg6+ Kh8 15.Qh6+ White seems to have a clear advantage. 

If you find one of these lines playable for Black, I will be happy to look deeper into it.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #14 - 12/05/05 at 00:13:54
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1. d4 d5
2. Nf3 e6
3. Bf4 c5
4. c3 Nc6
5. e3 Bd6
6. Bg3

{In general, this is  quite a reasonable idea. The bishop withdraws and to enforce a trade, Black will have to open the h-file for White's rook.}

6....   Nf6
7. Nbd2

(7. Bd3 O-O 8. Nbd2  Qe7 9. Ne5 transposes to another line discussed before the server went blank.  This is OK with Black.)

7...   O-O
8. Bd3 Nh5

Black seems to get a good game game here but none of this is mentioned anywhere.  I have my own material on this, some of it goes past move 30.  White has wasted time with his dark bishop so this time taken by Black is compensated or paid back by White.  Any champions for White here?

I am ready/prepared to discuss this thouroughly.



  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #13 - 12/04/05 at 14:40:33
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Quote:
[Event "ICC 3 0"]
[WhiteElo "2543"]
[BlackElo "2584"]


1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bf4 Bg4 4. Ne5 Bf5 5. e3 e6 6. g4 Be4 7. f3 Bg6 8. h4 h6
9. Nxg6 fxg6 10. Bd3 Kf7 11. Nd2 Bd6 12. Qe2 Bxf4 13. exf4 Qd6.... 1-0

I always play like this (Ne5+g4) why is this so bad? I keep winning them all Smiley


Looks like a good reason not to play 3. ...Bg4. After reading the review on Silman's site and looking at the variations offered I'm tempted to pick up this book. I've never opened 1.d4 in my life!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #12 - 12/04/05 at 12:43:46
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[Event "ICC 3 0"]
[WhiteElo "2543"]
[BlackElo "2584"]


1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bf4 Bg4 4. Ne5 Bf5 5. e3 e6 6. g4 Be4 7. f3 Bg6 8. h4 h6
9. Nxg6 fxg6 10. Bd3 Kf7 11. Nd2 Bd6 12. Qe2 Bxf4 13. exf4 Qd6.... 1-0

I always play like this (Ne5+g4) why is this so bad? I keep winning them all Smiley
  
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #11 - 12/03/05 at 05:33:33
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #10 - 12/02/05 at 05:57:33
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Many thanks for this, tafl. I understand what you mean about crashing the server!

Yes, I'd love a copy of the posts as a Word file, just if you got time! -- many thanks! The address to send it to is: michael.ayton@voro.fsnet.co.uk
  
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #9 - 12/02/05 at 05:25:13
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Quote:
Would you be able, in time, to repost the whole thread again on the Forum, tafl?


It wouldn't be that much work if I could post it as a Word-file or as pure text. But I would hate to crash the server, ao I will wait for advice from a more experienced user on how to do this properly.

However, if somebody wants to message me with their epost, and specify whether they like a txt-file (270Kb but hard to read) or a formatted Word-file (3.3Mb looking pretty much like the Forum), I will be happy to send a file.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #8 - 12/02/05 at 04:19:37
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[quote]Fortunately I took a back-up of the main London thread (The Controversial London System) just before (or even during) the crash.  [/quote]

Would you be able, in time, to repost the whole thread again on the Forum, tafl? I know this would take time, but you wouldn't have to do it all in one go. The material was invaluable.
  
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #7 - 12/02/05 at 02:17:37
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I am sad to see that the lost posts will not be restored. But it seems that for the future there will be better routines.

Fortunately I took a back-up of the main London thread (The Controversial London System) just before (or even during) the crash.

@ John Cox:
I would hate to break my cover, so I will restrict my reply to this: I am pleased to meet you! (if only via the net)

@Taljechin:
This is becoming slightly off-topic. But one of the more honest chessbook titles I recall must be "An Unbeatable White Repertoire After 1.e4 e5": http://chessbaseusastore.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=2679. With the Four Knights Opening as their main line they delivered mostly what they promised.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #6 - 11/30/05 at 12:18:44
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Quote:
I swore not to post here again until some information about the disappearing posts were provided. But I will break my vow.


Nice to see I'm not the only one feeling this way!

Quote:
@Taljechin:
"Winning with the London System" actually recommends  an early c4 against early ...Bf5 lines and quite a few early ...c6 lines.


Thanks, actually the book arrived today, as I was hoping it would have some info on such lines. And perhaps some lines with a reversed Baltic Defence? Which can be tricky enough after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5!?

Though I will probably not use it against the Indian defences. Anyway, I thought it could be a nice change instead of facing the Sicilian all the time.

Quote:
Book titles are what the publisher thinks will sell the book.  But "Win with . . . " may be a stretch.  The London is not something that will give White the strongest advantage from having the first move.  Of course, if you play better than your opponent, you're home free.  What it will give you, at least should give you, is a middle game where you are playing on familiar turf.  This is no small thing if the time you can spend studying chess is limited by, well, life.  So, the subtitle, "Dynamic new approaches to make your opponents crumble !" was probably something dreamed up in the Gambit sales department by someone who doesn't even play chess.


Agreed. Honestly, I don't see why the publishers refrained from more honest titles like 'Bore Your Opponents To Tears!', 'Not Losing with The London System' or simply 'The Solid London'. 

Lines with a 'boring' reputation are often quite annoying to face, e.g. 1.e4 c5 2.c3 or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6/Nc6 3.Bb5(+) are two examples of how concealed winning ambitions and a frustrated opponent can work very well together.

So why do the publishers try to deceive prospective readers with a title few take seriously, when the truth may actually be a better sales pitch?! ???
  
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #5 - 11/30/05 at 09:37:40
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That makes sense. Thanks. I am trying hard not to buy a copy of this book, as I change my repertoire too often and wouldn't like to have a further temptation on the shelves....

If by any chance you ere in fact the co-author, then I think we met once when I used to play at Gausdal in the early 1980's, and if so nice to see you again. Unless that was someone completely different, of course. Round about the time V Kovacevic slaughtered me with the Colle system...
  
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #4 - 11/30/05 at 08:56:09
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I swore not to post here again until some information about the disappearing posts were provided. But I will break my vow.

@Taljechin:
"Winning with the London System" actually recommends  an early c4 against early ...Bf5 lines and quite a few early ...c6 lines.

@ MNb
The book covers 1...d5, 1...Nf6 and 1...e6 in full. 1...f5 get some detail too while other 1st moves are treated more briefly.

@John Cox:
The main point of delaying h3 against ...g6 lines is to wait for ...d6, as White doesn't have time for h3 against the ...g6 + ...d5 (Gruenfeld) lines. The point being that in these lines White must play very accurately to get an edge against ...c5, ...Nc6 and ...Nfd7, planning ...e5.
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #3 - 11/30/05 at 08:26:44
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On a casual look in the shop, looked excellent. Does cover 1...Nf6 as well, yes. Quite a few 'with an interesting position where the player more used to this sort of position will triumph's, which is code in this kind of work for 'Black has equalised'. But fair's fair, proving an advantage in all lines with White is tricky enough even when you don't have to go 2 Bf4.

I have a technical question: I noticed some move orders against the KID designed to avoid the need for h3 early by meeting ...Nh5 with Bg5 h6; Bh4; g5 and now some move attacking the h5 knight (Nf3-d2 for example). It wasn't clear to me if any concrete gain was involved - White can't play without h3 for ever, I think, and does avoiding it early in fact allow him to avoid any particular Black plan? Anyone with a copy of the book like to explain to me?

  
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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #2 - 11/30/05 at 05:57:04
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Does the book also treat other Black first moves but 1...d5 ?
  

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Re: A new look at the London System
Reply #1 - 11/30/05 at 04:43:10
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Just seeing the book's mentioning of the move order 2.Bf4 inspired me to try it (as it made me remember some old Keres game where he played 1.d4 like an open game) but without the intent to play a London. In blitz it has worked quite well using a mirrored KGD set-up, 3.e3 4.Nf3 and 5.c4, it's especially effective against the Slav since often the Qb3 Qb6 stand off can be solved with c4-c5 Qxb3 axb3 and then b4-b5 is hard to meet for black thanks to the pinned a-pawn.
So far, the only snag I've noticed is 2...Nf6 3.e3 Bf5 4.Nf3 e6 when 5.c4? runs into Bxb1 and Bb4+. But white could play 4.c4 in that move order, I suppose.

I know, this comment should perhaps be in the QG section, but I found it funny that an unread book on the London could inspire me to try the QG again! Wink
  
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A new look at the London System
11/29/05 at 23:58:28
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Well, before everything went klablooie here . . .

I'm waiting to see if any others are as impressed with "Win with the London System" (Gambit) by Sverre Johnsen and Vlatko Kovacevic as I have been.

Just a solid effort with the ingredients I think a good repertoire book should have.

Book titles are what the publisher thinks will sell the book.  But "Win with . . . " may be a stretch.  The London is not something that will give White the strongest advantage from having the first move.  Of course, if you play better than your opponent, you're home free.  What it will give you, at least should give you, is a middle game where you are playing on familiar turf.  This is no small thing if the time you can spend studying chess is limited by, well, life.  So, the subtitle, "Dynamic new approaches to make your opponents crumble !" was probably something dreamed up in the Gambit sales department by someone who doesn't even play chess.  I can only wish.  The authors recommend the second move 2. Bf4 rather than 2. Nf3.  I have had the opportunity to try this in two OTB games.  The sampling is so small as to be statistically insignificant, but so far, my opponents haven't crumbled.  Actually, I lost both games, but in both cases the opening was not at fault.  Swiss system pairings where I was the underdog by several hundred rating points (and making dumb middle game moves) was the culprit.

And "London System . . ."  Actually, the London isn't really a "system" where you can roll out the same opening moves no matter what.  It is really, as the authors of the book point out, a "conglomerate of related lines . . ."  So, you still have to do the work.

Now that I have criticized the cover material -- which doesn't really bother me a bit -- let me say that what is inside the cover is great.

I'd suggest that if you play the London system this book is must have material.  But if you're looking for something to play against the London, all you need is your own pet line, probably an adaptation of what you play against 1. d4 anyway.  (In my case, the Slav.)  Don't worry, White's "dynamic play" won't really make you "crumble"  -- if you play well.  Just buckle your seat belt for a fun middle game.

  
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