Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 14
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense (Read 126361 times)
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #204 - 03/19/11 at 03:45:18
Post Tools
O.K., that's it, Lev, the last word shall be yours. Pease do bear in mind that these pages are devoted mostly to the discussion of theory.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1396
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #203 - 03/19/11 at 02:33:52
Post Tools
SWJediknight wrote on 03/19/11 at 01:58:38:
I could give a detailed response to the above, but I'd basically just end up re-iterating what Markovich said a few posts ago, as I agree with what he says on the matter and if anything the above post reinforces my agreement with him.

I don't deny White's practical chances but I think as well as 9...Nc6, 9...c5 is also -/+ while, failing those, 9...c6 and 9...h6 are =+.


I thought 9...c6 was looked at earlier. A number of both correspondence and tournament games went that way. White managed to win most of them. With regard to 9...c5, White won the majority of games I saw, provided he followed my analyses. Bonsai played against 9...c5 and lost because he played the wrong 10th move. As far as 9...h6 is concerned, it is mostly a transposition into other lines.  UON #27 covers that, under Chapter 7. There is 6 pages of analyses and games.

I am hearing, in effect, a lot of complaining that UON #27 is not out yet. The answers to a lot of your questions are in there. However, I can only tell you that UON #27 will come out once Gary Gifford, the editor-in-chief, gets to it. I will send him an email, asking when it will be ready.

Meanwhile, to answer your question about 9...h6:

10 Bd2 Nxf3 11 Qxf3 e5 12 Qh4 Nd5 14 Qh5 Nf6 drawn, Zilbermints - Kopiecki, telephone game, 11/24/2001. I played this game blindfold!

Ronald Fischer - Gerhart Mertes, correspondence 2001:

1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1 h6 10 Bf4 Nxf3 11 Qxf3 c6 12 Rad1 Qb6 13 Qg3 Nh5 14 Qg4 g6?? 15 Bxg6! Nf6 16 Bxf7+! Kxf7 17 Be5 Rg8 18 Qh5+ Rg6 19 Ne4 Kg7 20 Nf6 Bf6 21 Rf6 Rf6 22 Qh4, 1-0. A fine, brilliant combination!


  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 916
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #202 - 03/19/11 at 01:58:38
Post Tools
I could give a detailed response to the above, but I'd basically just end up re-iterating what Markovich said a few posts ago, as I agree with what he says on the matter and if anything the above post reinforces my agreement with him.

I don't deny White's practical chances but I think as well as 9...Nc6, 9...c5 is also -/+ while, failing those, 9...c6 and 9...h6 are =+.
« Last Edit: 03/19/11 at 03:06:05 by SWJediknight »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1396
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #201 - 03/19/11 at 00:44:00
Post Tools
Wrong on all points! Let me refute the baloney inaccuracies that has been posted in the last three posts.

First, White wins! You say in SD/5 you would know the right moves, right? Ah, but you yourself admit to reading this site. However, millions of other chess players do not. Besides, I usually play in over-the-board-tournaments, where you cannot use this site, but only your own head!  Grin

I would probably beat you on time in SD/5 minutes blitz, since I move quickly.  Grin

Second, you can shout "Theory!" till you are blue in the face and the cows come home. I don't much care for theory to begin with, more for wild and unorthodox positions. Oh sure, I can sit here, drinking tea, thinking of making love to my girlfriend, while theoretically solving the intricacies of the Danish Gambit Accepted.  Grin  So what? When you play in OTB tournaments, you never know who you will play.
After all, there are many people out there. It is not a given that you will know precisely which one of them will play the Zilbermints Gambit.

So, my point is that theoretical arguments, minus an actual chessgame, solve nothing. You admitted as much. Isn't it a contradiction to say that I have practical chances in play while in theory the gambit is allegedly refuted? Yes, it is. But that is what you guys are saying.

Third, I posted some stuff about the so-called refutations. You can look the games up here. If you have patience, you can wait until UON #27 comes out. The second part of the article is in there. However, the publication date is entirely the affair of Gary Gifford, the editor-in-chief. I am just the contributor.

Finally, let me point out to you that I base the analyses and practice on the games in my files. Since I spent years gathering these games from various sources, I think that I am more of an expert on this opening than you are. I know from looking into the 300+ games --- postal, blitz, over-the-board -- what lines have been played and what have not. 

This is not to say that your contributions have gone unnoticed. On the contrary, they have been noticed and argued about back and forth. However, it must be pointed out that even by your admission, the lines suggested are never played! Why? As MNb once wrote here, he has no idea. Maybe you should read the losing players' minds?

So we have the paradox where analysts say certain lines are good for Black, but practice shows something else altogether. Either these lines are practically never played or instead, other lines are played. Go figure.

White has practical chances in all variations, especially in OTB tournament play and blitz, where a computer is not of much help. So sorry, but computers are banned from the tournament room. As we all know, anyone using a computer to help play an OTB, not an Internet Chess Club,  game is a cheat. 

Theoretical merit? I don't much care for theory, more for practice. That is my position and it will not change.
Action, not words, is the important thing.

Oh, and something else. How many players will analyse 17-20 moves deep in an unfamiliar position in the Zilbermints Gambit, with a clock ticking at their side? Plenty of chances to go wrong, as you guys admitted.

Grin
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
TN
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 3420
Joined: 11/07/08
Gender: Male
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #200 - 03/18/11 at 23:40:38
Post Tools
CraigEvans wrote on 03/18/11 at 22:40:51:
As co-moderator, I agree entirely with this stance. I have posted suitable refutations for five years, and no responses have come forward. I think the theoretical debate is entirely solved. Lev, your contributions are appreciated, even if its solely so I know there are free points waiting for me somewhere in the world! But since you want to argue a different argument to everyone else on this theory forum, it seems pointless continuing. Good luck with your articles in the future - since you are unwilling to objectively look at any positions, they hold no interest to me, but I have no doubt that in practice you will continue to score points with this line.

9...Nc6 -/+: the final word.   Cheesy


Actually, the final word is that Black wins.  Grin
  

All our dreams come true if we have the courage to pursue them.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #199 - 03/18/11 at 22:40:51
Post Tools
As co-moderator, I agree entirely with this stance. I have posted suitable refutations for five years, and no responses have come forward. I think the theoretical debate is entirely solved. Lev, your contributions are appreciated, even if its solely so I know there are free points waiting for me somewhere in the world! But since you want to argue a different argument to everyone else on this theory forum, it seems pointless continuing. Good luck with your articles in the future - since you are unwilling to objectively look at any positions, they hold no interest to me, but I have no doubt that in practice you will continue to score points with this line.

9...Nc6 -/+: the final word.   Cheesy
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #198 - 03/18/11 at 20:16:26
Post Tools
Gambit wrote on 03/18/11 at 19:35:11:
Sure. But there is one important point that many of you have missed. It is that the gambit offers good practical chances in over-the-board tournaments, where you do not have enough time to analyze all the intricacies. Here you do not have a clock ticking at your side, an opponent sitting across you, spectators watching... In the quiet of your cabinet, you can analyze ad infinitum and make loud pronouncements.
But out there on the field of battle, in tournament play, it is a whole different kettle of fish.


Yeah, that's right Lev, and everyone here understands it.  No one has missed it.  Do you understand the difference between practical chances and theoretical merit?  You would do everyone here a favor if you would recognize it.  Everyone else does.

But also, I can guarantee that even with the clock ticking at SD-5, I would find good moves against this particular gambit, in the first place because I've had the benefit of reading all the material here, in the second place because I can actually play chess fairly well.  And so can a lot of other people here.

I think it would be a good idea to close this thread fairly soon, because it appears that the theoretical problems of the Zilbermints Gambit have largely been solved.  As a courtesy to you, I'll keep it open for awhile in case you want to argue the theory.  But I'm not going to let this drag out with six people saying "theory" and one person shouting, "So what? Practice!"
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1396
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #197 - 03/18/11 at 19:35:11
Post Tools
Sure. But there is one important point that many of you have missed. It is that the gambit offers good practical chances in over-the-board tournaments, where you do not have enough time to analyze all the intricacies. Here you do not have a clock ticking at your side, an opponent sitting across you, spectators watching... In the quiet of your cabinet, you can analyze ad infinitum and make loud pronouncements.
But out there on the field of battle, in tournament play, it is a whole different kettle of fish.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
linksspringer
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 376
Joined: 09/25/07
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #196 - 03/18/11 at 09:50:49
Post Tools
[1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 0-0 Nxd4 9 Kh1 Nc6 10 Qe1 h6]
CraigEvans wrote on 03/17/11 at 21:17:56:

Firstly, as pointed out by linksspringer, 10...h6 is the move we have been looking at recently. And after 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12.Ne4 Be7 13.Rd1 O-O! 14.Bb5 Qe8, whilst white saved a tempo on Bxf6, black has not played Bd7 either, and it is far from clear that there is a need for this. After 15.Ne5 f6! 16.Nxc6 bxc6, as pointed out by others, 17.Bc4 is calmly met not by the rash f5, but by breaking the pin. I prefer 17...Kh8, not even allowing Ng5+ ideas, where black has damaged pawns in compensation for a two pawn advantage and the bishop pair. Black is winning.

Craig, there is a specific reason I went for 17...Kh7. In my line I had: 18.Qe3 f5 19.Nc5 Bxc5 20.Qxc5 e5. If instead 17...Kh8 18.Qe3 f5 19.Nc5 Bxc5 20.Qxc5 e5, then White still has the trick 21.Rde1 e4 22.Rxe4! because after 22...Qxe4 23.Qxf8 comes with check. With the king on h7 this trick doesn't work. Of course Black has alternatives after 17...Kh8 18.Qe3, but I found it hard to avoid Nc5 > Ne6 and an exchange of Bc8 for knight, resulting in opposite coloured bishops and possible drawing chances. Perhaps there is a way, but 17...Kh7 looks simple enough to me.

SWJediknight wrote on 03/17/11 at 22:50:36:

The analysis of the 9...Nc6 10.Qe1 h6 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12.Ne4 Be7 13.Rd1 0-0 14.Bb5 Qe8 looks convincing, and in addition I think after 15.Ne5, 15...f5 and 15...a6 are also significantly better for Black.

Those may well work too, but in the resulting 2 knights vs. 2 bishops situation, it seems the knights can find good outposts, making it a bit harder to untangle. Black is still 2 pawns up of course. 

Markovich wrote on 03/18/11 at 01:05:40:
I like what's happened here, in the spirit of an online analytical working group. I think it'd be fun to disect the entire BDG, line by line, in this way. Without prejudice, I mean. For all I know, it's viable.

Amen to that!

Gambit wrote on 03/18/11 at 04:45:16:

It is close to 1 a.m. here in New Jersey, so I will have to delay my response for now. Rest assured that your analyses will be looked at and answered in due time. Since my printer is not working, I will have to print out your analyses in school, and then go over it at home.

Thanks, appreciated!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Gambit
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 1396
Location: Newark
Joined: 07/26/05
Gender: Male
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #195 - 03/18/11 at 04:45:16
Post Tools
I just came from New York. My mom had her birthday on Saint Patrick's Day, so the entire family was celebrating. We went to a restaurant and the opera.

Having said that, let me respond. I never said I "depended" on MNb to answer the question. All that happened was that MNb answered it before I had the opportunity to do so. Didn't Ruth play the Trompowsky Attack decades before Julian Hodgson did? So there.

It is close to 1 a.m. here in New Jersey, so I will have to delay my response for now. Rest assured that your analyses will be looked at and answered in due time. Since my printer is not working, I will have to print out your analyses in school, and then go over it at home.
  
Back to top
YIM  
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #194 - 03/18/11 at 01:05:40
Post Tools
I like what's happened here, in the spirit of an online analytical working group. I think it'd be fun to disect the entire BDG, line by line, in this way. Without prejudice, I mean. For all I know, it's viable.
  

The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 916
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #193 - 03/17/11 at 22:50:36
Post Tools
If 9...h6 10.Bf4 Nxf3+ 11.Qxf3 0-0, after 12.Rad1 I doubt that Black's advantage is as large as it is after 9...Nc6 or 9...c5.  For instance 12...Bd6 (else White threatens nasty discoveries on the black queen) 13.Bg3 and Black is a bit tied up.

The analysis of the 9...Nc6 10.Qe1 h6 11.Bxf6 Bxf6 12.Ne4 Be7 13.Rd1 0-0 14.Bb5 Qe8 looks convincing, and in addition I think after 15.Ne5, 15...f5 and 15...a6 are also significantly better for Black.

In Linksspringer's line 11.Qh4 Nd7 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.Qg3 0-0, 14.Nb5 may improve slightly on the immediate 14.Qxc7 (at least enabling White to regain one pawn without exchanging queens), e.g. 14...Nc5 15.Nxc7 Rb8 16.Nb5 Nxd3 or 14...a6 15.Nxc7 Ra7 (this may be better as it leaves the future of the Nc7 uncertain).  The resulting positions still look a lot closer to -/+ than =+ though.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
CraigEvans
YaBB Moderator
*****
Offline


If I can't sacrifice a
pawn, I'll throw my rook
in

Posts: 588
Location: Bryn, South Wales
Joined: 07/14/03
Gender: Male
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #192 - 03/17/11 at 21:17:56
Post Tools
This thread is really flying now, but the number of things which are being overlooked is just depressing. Again, I am going to focus solely on 9...Nc6, as for me the discussion is simple - does white have anything??

Firstly, as pointed out by linksspringer, 10...h6 is the move we have been looking at recently. And after 11.Nxf6 Nxf6 12.Ne4 Be7 13.Rd1 O-O! 14.Bb5 Qe8, whilst white saved a tempo on Bxf6, black has not played Bd7 either, and it is far from clear that there is a need for this. After 15.Ne5 f6! 16.Nxc6 bxc6, as pointed out by others, 17.Bc4 is calmly met not by the rash f5, but by breaking the pin. I prefer 17...Kh8, not even allowing Ng5+ ideas, where black has damaged pawns in compensation for a two pawn advantage and the bishop pair. Black is winning.

Secondly, if we return to my 10...Bd7, 11.Rd1 h6 12.Bf4 O-O 13.Ne4, which MNb posted and Lev instantly lactched onto as salvation. Let's hold our horses a little.

After MNb's very interesting line with 13...Nxe4 14.Bxe4 Bd6 15.Bxh6! gh 16.Rxd6!, black does not have to rashly accept all that he is offered. I suggest the more refined 16...f5! as a way to retain the edge. We could then have:

a) 17.Qg3+ is the most direct attempt so we need to consider it, but falls short quickly after 17...Kh8 18.Rxd7 Qxd7 19.Bxc6 Qxc6 20.Ne5! Qxc2 (nothing to be afraid of, everything is under control) 21.Qg6 Qd2! - if black wins the exchange back with Nf7+ he is still two pawns down, if he does not then he is an exchange down as well. Black is better.

b) 17.Rxd7 is another attempt, but after 17...Qxd7 18. Bxc6 Qxc6 19.Qh4 Qb5! 20.Rd1, black has 20...f4 returning one pawn and maintaining a material advantage - white simply does not have enough material to cause problems after 21.Qxh6 (or 21.Qg4+ Kh8) Qf5! and black will eventually have good chances to consolidate his material advantage.

c) 17.Rxc6! is the strongest move, but even here 17...Bxc6 18.Bxc6 bxc6 19.Qxe6+ Kh7 20.Qxc6 Qd6! leaves white with nothing better than to exchange queens and grovel an exchange-for-pawn endgame. At best white can grimly hold on for a draw I suppose - if this is the best he can hope for, then this opening is still in need of dire salvation. I'd say this is between =+ and -/+ - it certainly ain't a picnic for white.

The irony of the above lines is that they are irrelevant at the moment because 10...h6 appears stronger. Either way, the ZGED looks unsound under close analysis. Lev is still yet to actually suggest an improvement himself, and is now relying on MNb to provide suggestions to save his opening - how the tables turn!  Grin

Oh, and at a quick glance through, some of the lines after 9...c5 really don't look too appetizing for white either. So maybe 9...Nc6 and 9...c5 are both -/+. We've not even looked in detail at 9...h6, which puts the question to the bishop even earlier, and allows black the opportunity to perhaps transpose into favourable versions of all of the above lines, e.g. 10.Bf4 and now 10...Nxf3! might well be playable, eg 11.Qxf3 O-O! 12.Rad1 (12.Bxh6? is just useless) Bd6! and a lot of white's attacking potential after 9...Nxf3?! is reduced by the movement of the bishop!

White has a lot of work to do to make this playable. Too much. There are more holes than in a Leerdammer slice.  Cheesy
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

"If others have seen further than me, it is because giants have been standing on my shoulders."
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Kramnikaze
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 26
Joined: 03/09/08
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #191 - 03/17/11 at 20:40:24
Post Tools
Quote:
1 d4 d5 2 e4 dxe4 3 Nc3 Nf6 4 f3 exf3 5 Nxf3 e6 6 Bg5 Be7 7 Bd3 Nc6 8 00 Nxd4 9 Kh1 c5 10 Bxf6 Bxf6 11 Ne4 00  [/b]and now:

12 Nxd4! is the key move.

Now the big question is: Which piece does Black capture the Nd4 with? There can follow three branches: A 12...cxd4; B 12...Bxd4; C 12...Qxd4 

Analyses goes:

A) 12...cxd4 leads to a forced win for White. There follows 13 Nxf6+ gf6 14 Bxh7+! Kh7 15 Qh5+ Kg8 16 Rf3! ++-

B) 12...Bxd4 13 c3! Now the question is: How should Black play? There are four possible answers: B1) 13...f5; B2) 13...Be3; B3) 13...Be6; B4) 13...Be5

B1) 13...f5!? Attempts to strike back, but it fails a bit short of the mark. There follows 14 cd4 fe4 15 Rf8 Qf8 16 Be4 and now:

(1) 16...Qf4 17 dc5! Qe4 18 Qd8+ Kf7 19 Rf1+ Kg6 20 Qe8+ Kh6 21 Qf8 Kg6 22 Qe8+ Kg5 23 Qe7+ Kg6 24 Qe8+ Kh6 25 Qf8+ with a draw. If 16...Qf4 17 Qd3 Qh6 18 dc5 +=/+-

(2) 16...cxd4 17 Qh5! with at least a draw after 17...g6 18 Bxg6 hxg6 19 Qxg6+. If Black does not capture the Bishop, a White win is possible.

(3) 16...Bd7 17 dxc5 Rd8 18 Qc2 +=

B2) 13...Be3?? 14 Nf6+! gxf6 15 Bxh7 Kxh7 16 Qh5+ Kg8 17 Rf3 e5 18 Rxe3 Re8 19 Rd1 Qc7 20 Qh6 Bf5 21 Qxf6 Bg6 22 Rh3 Bh7 23 Rdd3 ++-

B21) 13...Be3 14 Nf6 Kh8 15 Qh5! Bh6 16 Rad1 Qe7 17 Nxh7! ++-

B3) 13...Bf6 14 Nf6 gf6 15 Bh7+ Kxh7 16 Qh5+ Kg8 17 Rf3 Re8 Qh6 ++-

B31) 13...Bf6 14 Nf6 Kh8 15 Qh5! Bh6 16 Rad1 Qe7 17  Nxh7! ++-

B4) 13...Be5 14 Qc2! This move frees the d-file for the Rook, while making a Queen-and-Bishop battery on the b1-h7 diagonal. The other move, 14 Qf3!?, is also possible.

[b]C) 12...Qxd4 [/b] again leads to a forced win for White. There follows 13 Nxf6+! gf6 14 Bxh7+! Kxh7 15 Qh5+ Kg8


If you play 15...Kg7, white has nothing there. (in the 12...Qxd4 line)
« Last Edit: 03/17/11 at 23:24:14 by Kramnikaze »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SWJediknight
God Member
*****
Offline


Alert... opponent out
of book!

Posts: 916
Joined: 03/14/08
Re: BDG: Zilbermints Gambit in the Euwe Defense
Reply #190 - 03/17/11 at 20:10:47
Post Tools
I was indeed paying attention, I noted your post and also noted Markovich's response.   Black walks a bit of a tightrope in this line, since in the line 12.Nxd4 Bxd4 13.c3 Be5, Bxd4 and Be5 are "only moves", but if Black can find them then it seems that Black has a large advantage- like Markovich suggested Black has a wide range of options.

I think 14.Qc2, 14.Qe2 and 14.Qf3 are all well met by 14...Qh4, and if 15.h3 then 15...b6, and if 15.g3 then 15...Qe7 followed by 16...b6.  White is forced to weaken the kingside a little in either case, in a way that also hinders Rf3-h3 and Qh3 ideas.  Against 14.Qc2 in particular, 14...f5 also looks pretty strong as I'm not sure what White should do with the knight, as 15.Nxc5?! and 15.Ng3 are both well met by 15...Qh4.  In all cases Black's chances of breaking through on the kingside seem as high as White's while in the meantime there is still that two-pawn advantage plus the bishop pair, so it looks at least -/+ to me.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 14
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo