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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Scotch Gambit line (Read 3800 times)
MNb
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #14 - 12/07/05 at 05:36:30
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I tend to agree. As I state, that 5.Ng5 is an inferior move, Black should not be satisfied with a slight disadvantage or even equality. So 6...Nxf7 is better.
  

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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #13 - 12/06/05 at 23:14:10
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it doesn't really look all that hopeful to me with the opposite colored bishops and all. i mean, if black is content with a draw, he's just going to camp his queen around the center, and white can either exchange or try to work around it. maybe i'm missing something obvious, but i just don't see much there.
  
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #12 - 12/06/05 at 23:07:34
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Didn't see 10. ...Qf6 at first. Maybe better than I thought. I guess if I was white I would try 11. Qb3+ Qe6 12. Qxe6 dxe6 13. b5 Nd4 14. Na3, since it at least leaves black with a potential weakness in the e pawn. But that probably shouldn't be a deal-breaker for black. Seems strange, it seems like white should have something more.
  
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #11 - 12/06/05 at 22:30:05
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well, if black is trying to avoid a draw, then yes, its a very bad way to go. other than that, i just don't see any real problems here, Qh5+ or otherwise. not that there's no winning chances for white, but it just doesn't look scary at all to me. i don't think this line is critical, but i think its a pretty safe and easy to find bail OTB.

edit: it should also be noted that in the event that white can't stir an attack or advantage up, he's looking at an opposite colored bishops endgame.
  
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MNb
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #10 - 12/06/05 at 22:01:21
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I do not trust 5.Ng5 Nh6 6.Nxf7 Bb4+ either, for three reasons:
a) 4...Bb4+ has already a bad name.
b) Black plays voluntarily an already developed piece for the second time.
c) Thorsteinsson (2285) - Stefansson (2545) ended in a draw after 7.c3 dxc3 8.bxc3 Nxf7 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10.cxb4 Qf6 11.Qb3 Qe6 12.Qf3+ Ke8 13.o-o Qf6 14.Qxf6 gxf6.
If ambitious White may try 14.Qg3!? Qxa1 15.Nc3.

Moreover White has 6.Bxf7+ Nxf7 7.Nxf7 Kxf7 8.Qh5+ to avoid this whole line.
  

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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #9 - 12/06/05 at 21:33:05
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8. bxc3 and now:

8. ...Bxc3 9. Nxc3 Nxf7 10. Bxf7+ Kxf7 11. Qd5+ Kf8 12. 0-0 looks scary for black--not sure if I would willingly go that far for a pawn.

8. ...Nxf7 9. Bxf7+ Kxf7 10. cxb4. I haven't looked with Fritz, but my instinct says this position isn't playable for black. White can keep the black king in the center with Qb3+, so it looks like black's king will be unsafe for some time. Plus white seems to have some lead in development. And so far white hasn't even invested a pawn.


after 8...Nxf7 9.Bxf7+ Kxf7 10. cxb4 black isn't behind in development at all. white has 2 pieces on the back row, while black has one with a pawn in the way and a move in hand. after 10...Qf6 11.Qb3+ Qe6 what can white do that is so dangerous? i mean, its okay and all, but i think black gets out of the opening pretty easy from the looks of it.
  
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MNb
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #8 - 12/06/05 at 20:59:57
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In my database I have found 54 games with 1.e4 .... 9.Qxc5 and White scores 56%, which is not bad at all indeed. One high level game is

Zezulkin,J (2535) - Gross,D (2400) [C44]
CZEchT Extraliga (7), 20.02.2005
1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pc6 3.Lc4 Lc5 4.d4 exd4 5.Pg5 Ph6 6.Pxf7 Pxf7 7.Lxf7+ Kxf7 8.Dh5+ g6 9.Dxc5 d6 10.Da3 Dh4 11.Pd2 Kg7 12.o-o Tf8 13.c3 d3 14.c4 Pe5 15.b4 Pg4 16.Lb2+ Kh6 17.h3 Pxf2 18.Dc3 Tf7 19.Pf3 Pxh3+ 20.gxh3 Dg3+ 21.Kh1 Lxh3 22.Dd2+ Kh5 23.Df2 Dxf2 24.Txf2 Taf8 0-1

Another typical example is:

Szalanczy,E (2420) - Molnar,L (2260) [C44]
Balatonbereny op Balatonbereny (6), 1994
1.e4 e5 2.Pf3 Pc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Lc4 Lc5 5.Pg5 Ph6 6.Pxf7 Pxf7 7.Lxf7+ Kxf7 8.Dh5+ g6 9.Dxc5 d5 10.o-o dxe4 11.c3 Dd6 12.cxd4 Pxd4 13.Dxd6 cxd6 14.Pc3 Te8 15.Lf4 Ld7 16.Lxd6 Pb5 17.Pxb5 Lxb5 18.Tfe1 Tac8 19.Lb4 Lc6 20.Lc5 a6 21.Lb6 Te5 22.Le3 Td8 23.h4 Tb5 24.Tab1 Td7 25.Tec1 Tbd5 26.Kh2 Ke6 27.Kg3 Kf5 28.b3 Td3 29.Tb2 Td1 30.Tc5+ T7d5 31.Tc4 Td6 32.Tbc2 T1d3 33.Kh3 h5 34.Kg3 Te6 35.Tb4 Ted6 36.Tb6 Td1 37.a4 T6d3 38.b4 Th1 39.Tc5+ Td5 40.Txd5+ Lxd5 41.Td6 Td1 42.Lg5 Td3+ 43.Kh2 Le6 44.Tb6 Td7 45.a5 Ke5 46.Le3 Lf5 47.Kg3 Tf7 48.b5 axb5 49.Txb5+ Ke6 50.La7 Kd6 51.Ld4 Kc6 52.Tb6+ Kd5 53.Le3 Ke5 54.Lg5 Kd5 55.Lf6 Tc7 56.Lb2 Tc5 57.Txb7 Txa5 58.Kf4 Tc5 59.Lg7 Tc2 60.Kg3 Ke6 61.Ld4 Td2 62.Tb4 Ta2 63.Kf4 Ta5 64.Tb6+ Kf7 65.g3 Td5 66.Tb4 Ta5 67.Kg5 Ld7+ 68.Kh6 Ta4 69.Txa4 Lxa4 ½-½

I apologize: P = N, B = L, T = R and D = Q.

Note that in both games White was the stronger player.
There are two other games, with both players having ELO 2200+ and White had a very bad ½ from 4. So I suggest to analyse for your own (I am too lazy to do it for you) and look for improvements in critical games.
I took a glance at a few and noticed, that 11...Qd6 is safe. Then the Black king is quite comfortable on f7. With the extra pawn he can play for a win for hours and hours without any risk.
« Last Edit: 12/07/05 at 05:40:25 by MNb »  

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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #7 - 12/06/05 at 19:21:18
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Quote:
what i mean is. 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 5.Ng5 Nh6 6. Nxf7 Bb4+ 7.c3 dxc3


8. bxc3 and now:

8. ...Bxc3 9. Nxc3 Nxf7 10. Bxf7+ Kxf7 11. Qd5+ Kf8 12. 0-0 looks scary for black--not sure if I would willingly go that far for a pawn.

8. ...Nxf7 9. Bxf7+ Kxf7 10. cxb4. I haven't looked with Fritz, but my instinct says this position isn't playable for black. White can keep the black king in the center with Qb3+, so it looks like black's king will be unsafe for some time. Plus white seems to have some lead in development. And so far white hasn't even invested a pawn.
  
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #6 - 12/06/05 at 17:50:07
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Quote:
After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 5. Ng5 Bb4+? 6. c3 dxc3 7. bxc3, black's bishop is hanging, and he has done nothing to stop the threat against f7. And by forcing white to play c3, he gave the white extra development options for the queen (Qb3) and the dark square bishop (Ba3). Additionally, white is ready castle, whereas black probably will be stuck in the center after Bxf7+. I don't think 5. ...Bb4 is any good. I'm pretty certain that 5. ...Nh6 is correct, although maybe 5. ...Ne5 is also playable.



what i mean is. 1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 5.Ng5 Nh6 6. Nxf7 Bb4+ 7.c3 dxc3
  
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #5 - 12/06/05 at 16:57:12
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Okay, anyone want to help analyse this position:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 5. Ng5?! Nh6 6. Bxf7+ Nxf7 7. Nxf7 Kxf7 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qxc5 d5! 10. 0-0 dxe4.

Here white has tried four moves:

A) 11. c3 (most popular choice)

B) 11. f3

C) 11. Bf4

D) 11. Bg5

When I get home I'm going to try to get to the bottom of this. Black is a pawn up, but his king is somewhat exposed in an opposite color bishop middlegame. There is about 8-10 games in chessbase online, and to be honest I wasn't really convinced that black played all that well in any of the games--but at any rate black only wins 1, draws 1, and loses the rest. Small sample size, not sure of player ratings, etc. Not sure if there's any published analysis of this anywhere. Any thoughts?
  
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #4 - 12/05/05 at 22:51:27
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Mnb: The positions look great in the lines you mention, but what about 10. 0-0. The stats in chessbase don't paint a pretty picture for black. Maybe there is some known antidote?
  
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MNb
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #3 - 12/05/05 at 21:25:00
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In the game: 9...d5! (instead of 9...d6) 10.Qxd5+ Qxd5 11.exd5 Nb4 =+ in the endgame or 10.exd5 Re8+ 11.Kd1 (11.Kf1 b6 12.Qxc6? Ba6+ and mate) Re5 12.c4 Qh4 with an irresistable attack (Heyken/Fette).
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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KevinL
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #2 - 12/05/05 at 20:05:19
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After 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 5. Ng5 Bb4+? 6. c3 dxc3 7. bxc3, black's bishop is hanging, and he has done nothing to stop the threat against f7. And by forcing white to play c3, he gave the white extra development options for the queen (Qb3) and the dark square bishop (Ba3). Additionally, white is ready castle, whereas black probably will be stuck in the center after Bxf7+. I don't think 5. ...Bb4 is any good. I'm pretty certain that 5. ...Nh6 is correct, although maybe 5. ...Ne5 is also playable.
  
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Tater_Salad
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Re: Scotch Gambit line
Reply #1 - 12/05/05 at 19:22:39
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i think black is probably fine if you just sneak in Bb4+ with the hanging bishop before the exchange on f7. after c3 dxc3 white doesn't look to have much of an attack. i could be wrong about that though.
  
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KevinL
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Scotch Gambit line
12/05/05 at 18:37:31
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Does anyone know what is considered the best line of play against the following:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Bc5 5. Ng5. In a recent game I continued as black: 5. ...Nh6 6. Bxf7+ Nxf7 7. Nxf7 Kxf7 8. Qh5+ g6 9. Qxc5 d6 10. Qa3 Qe7 11. Qg3 h6 12. 0-0 Rag8 13. Na3 Ke8 14. Bd2 Kd7. I made some mistakes later and got a bad position. My plan was to relocate the king to the queenside, because I thought the king would be in danger because of the opposite color bishop middlegame where I had weakened kingside dark squares. But when I checked some games online, black does very well in this line and the dark squares are never really an issue. I noticed that Grischuk played a game (I think in 2003) as black and played 9. ...d5 10. e5 Re8, and it seemed like black was doing well the whole way, but white was only rated something like 2300, which might have had something to do with it. Also, I couldn't find any mention in things like NCO, but maybe I wasn't looking in the right place.

Any input is appreciated.
  
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