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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence (Read 24032 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #18 - 02/02/06 at 12:27:20
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Yes, nice game. I suspect, though (though obviously I could be wrong), that inserting ...b5 accords much better with the ...Be7/...Bf6 plan than with the Keckcemet line itself, because the weakening of the queenside might fit badly with the strongpointing plan. I can't see any record of anyone playing ...b5 and ...Be8, anyway.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #17 - 02/02/06 at 12:10:38
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Iirc that is indeed the problem variation. You could avoid it by flicking in b5 at some point though.
Here's what can happen without Qb3:
[Event "Paris"]
[Site "Paris"]
[Date "1933.??.??"]
[Round "4"]
[White "Znosko Borovsky,Eugene"]
[Black "Alekhine,Alexander"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C87"]
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.0-0 d6 6.c3 Bd7 7.Re1 Be7 8.d4 0-0
9.Nbd2 Be8 10.Bxc6 Bxc6 11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Nxe5 Bxe4 13.Nxe4 Qxd1 14.Nxf6+ gxf6 15.Rxd1 fxe5 16.Bh6 Rfd8 17.Kf1 f5 18.Rxd8+ Rxd8 19.g3 Kf7 20.Be3 h5 21.Ke2 Ke6 22.Rd1 Rg8 23.f3 h4 24.Bf2 hxg3 25.hxg3 Rh8 26.Bg1 Bd6 27.Kf1 Rg8 28.Bf2 b5 29.b3 a5 30.Kg2 a4 31.Rd2 axb3 32.axb3 Ra8 33.c4 Ra3 34.c5 Be7 35.Rb2 b4 36.g4 f4 37.Kf1 Ra1+ 38.Ke2 Rc1 39.Ra2 Rc3 40.Ra7 Kd7 41.Rb7 Rxb3 42.Rb8 Rb2+ 43.Kf1 b3 44.Kg1 Kc6 45.Kf1 Kd5 46.Rb7 e4 7.fxe4+ Kxe4 48.Rxc7 Kf3 49.Rxe7 Rxf2+ 50.Ke1 b2 51.Rb7 Rc2 52.c6 Kg3 53.c7 f3 54.Kd1 Rxc7 55.Rxb2 f2 0-1

  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #16 - 02/02/06 at 11:21:03
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In the Keckcemet Variation, mightn't 10 Bc6 be a problem? -- e.g. 10 ...Bc6 11 de de 12 Ne5 Be4 13 Qb3!?. What's Black's idea now? Perhaps he can sac a pawn e.g. with 13 ...Bd5 14 c4 Be6 15 Qb7 Bd6, but does he get enough?
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #15 - 02/02/06 at 10:43:12
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This is real food for thought -- thanks. I notice too that Varga has tried the ...Be7/...Bf6 plan but with ...b5 thrown in before ...Bf6, presumably to prevent the exchange of light-squared Bishops and so potentially strengthen Black's possible kingside attack, esp. if White should play h2--h3. (I'm always a bit apprehensive about launching such attacks if I don't have a light-squared Bishop, but I guess one shouldn't be dogmatic!)
  
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Willempie
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #14 - 02/02/06 at 10:28:48
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Yep that is it, I picked it up in a book by Keres on the Ruy, when I was much younger. The idea is to fix e5 indefinately at the cost of a very passive position (the Be8 later goes to f7 usually). It works very well against attacking players, but not against more versatile ones. The Bf6 line seems like an improvement of the same idea.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #13 - 02/02/06 at 10:05:55
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Thanks, Willempie! I really must stop being such a hick and get hold of these essential books, particularly as you can get them quite cheaply! Up here in Durham you never, of course, see any decent chess literature in bookshops -- it's London or nothing if you want to see before you buy. (Thanks once again, Rupert Murdoch!)

I'd no idea the Keckcemet Variation involved the idea ...f6, ...Nd7 and ...Be8, nor that playing ...Be7 before ...Nf6 might be an idea -- interesting. Am I right in assuming we're talking about 5 c3 Bd7 6 0-0 Be7 7 d4 Nf6 8 Nbd2 0-0 9 Re1 Be8!? (instead of Portisch's 9 ...Re8)? This doesn't seem to do too badly! I notice also that 6 ...Be7 7 d4 Bf6!? has occasionally been tried, with reasonable success.
  
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Willempie
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #12 - 02/02/06 at 08:39:11
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There is also Anand2, which covers all those defenses from a main-line white perspective, including transpositions.
I have dabbled with what used to be called the Keckcemet variation (...a6 4 Ba4 d6 5 0-0/c3 Bd7 followed by Be7, Nf6, 0-0, Be8, Nd7 and f6). Quite passive, but also hard for white to make direct progress.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #11 - 02/02/06 at 02:11:20
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Vlastimil Jansa gave a short lecture on the Modern Steinitz in his interesting book Dynamics of Chess Strategy.  You can read the first fourteen pages of that book (the introduction and a taste of his discussion on the Steinitz) on Amazon.co.uk.  http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/reader/0713486082/ref=sib_dp_pt/202-4126950-9479801#r....  Perhaps its not comprehensive, but you might find it interesting or insightful.  Hope this helps, good luck. Peace out.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #10 - 02/02/06 at 01:06:37
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Thanks once again kylemeister -- very helpful.
  
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #9 - 02/01/06 at 17:29:04
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1138105012/0#8 date=1138705901]Interesting reflections. The ...Nge7/...Ng6 stuff strikes me as an attractive system if it can be made to work. I guess one attraction might be that it can be reached from a Cozio move order, bypassing the Exchange Variation: 3 ...Nge7 4 c3/0-0 a6 5 Ba4 d6, etc. (Of course, one would need something against 4 d4. Maybe 4 ...ed 5 Nd4 Ng6!?)

I'd be interested to know what lines/assessments Karolyi gives after 8 d5 Nb8 9 c4 h6!?, or 9 ...Be7 10 Nc3 h6!?, if he does.[/quote]

The picture that emerges from the article is that after 8. d5 Nb8 9. c4 Be7 10. Nc3, 10...0-0 is apparently better than 10...h6.  10...h6 is attributed to Keres and was successfully employed by Timman against Motylev, but Timman himself is cited as thinking that 10...0-0 is better (actually they have the evident misprint "10...0-0-0"); apparently Motylev missed a chance to be clearly better.  There are several games/excerpts with 10...0-0, which is portrayed as leading to plus-over-equals with best play.  9...a5 and 9...Bxa4 are also given (with a full game for the former and a couple of citations for the latter) as leading to the same evaluation.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #8 - 01/31/06 at 11:11:41
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Interesting reflections. The ...Nge7/...Ng6 stuff strikes me as an attractive system if it can be made to work. I guess one attraction might be that it can be reached from a Cozio move order, bypassing the Exchange Variation: 3 ...Nge7 4 c3/0-0 a6 5 Ba4 d6, etc. (Of course, one would need something against 4 d4. Maybe 4 ...ed 5 Nd4 Ng6!?)

I'd be interested to know what lines/assessments Karolyi gives after 8 d5 Nb8 9 c4 h6!?, or 9 ...Be7 10 Nc3 h6!?, if he does.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #7 - 01/28/06 at 17:59:50
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[quote author=Michael Ayton link=1138105012/0#5 date=1138449696]Thanks for this, kylemeister. I'll take a look at the Yearbook. I'm not quite sure which line(s) with ...Nge7 and d4--d5 he's covering in Part I. Are these ...g6 lines? -- maybe you could let me know the move order?

Portisch, in the book you mention, recommends the ...Be7 system I mention in question (3) of my post. He does also recommend the ...g6 line, but with ...Qe7. Davies, however (on ChessPub), suggests ...Qe7 is inaccurate before/unless White plays Nb1--d2, because of the plan d5, Bxd7, c4 and Nc3; instead he suggests 5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6 7 d4 g6 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7. The implication is that the line Emms gives as slightly better for White in NCO (p. 334, note 12), namely 10 de Ne5 11 Ne5 fe 12 Bg5, isn't a serious danger for Black -- see e.g. Schekachev--Malaniuk -- and that Keres, who played this system quite a bit, knew this.

In the 5 Bc6 bc 6 d4 variation (C73), Davies also suggests 6 ...ed!? and 6 ...Bg4!? for Black, ascribing both lines to Keres. After 6 ...ed he gives 7 Nd4 (7 Qd4 c5! 8 Qd3 Ne7!) c5 8 Nf3! (Portisch gives this move as best, but without any analysis) Nf6 9 0-0 Be7 10 Nc3 0-0, but here he doesn't mention Emms's 12 Bg5.

As a general remark, I often get the feeling that quite a few people on here neglect the stuff on ChessPub. There's some very interesting material there -- I have the ChessPub shortcut permanently on my desktop!



[/quote]

Wow, you're quite up on this.  Interesting stuff.   Karolyi's point of departure is 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 d6 5. 0-0  Bd7 6. c3 Nge7 7. d4 Ng6 8. d5.  I was thinking that ...Nge7 implies ...Ng6; it seems to me that combining ...Nge7 with ...g6 is "just not done," but I'm not sure why (though some vague possibilites come to mind).  Yes, maybe I should actually look it up ...

It seems unclear to me whether there is a "main line" in this stuff now, regardless of Karolyi's remark that I quoted.  I remember that in the old days (say 1970s-80s) when White played the 5. c3 (rather than 5. 0-0) move order and Black played ...Nge7, the main line seemed to be 5. c3 Bd7 6. d4 Nge7 7. Bb3, forcing Black to spend a tempo on ...h6;  then Black tried to make use of that by means of ...Be7-g5 while delaying castling himself (for reasons pertaining to the possible opening of the h-file) ...




   
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #6 - 01/28/06 at 12:03:20
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Thanks, Faraday! I have seen these before and encountered the accessing difficulties you mention, but I'll take another look!
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #5 - 01/28/06 at 12:01:36
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Thanks for this, kylemeister. I'll take a look at the Yearbook. I'm not quite sure which line(s) with ...Nge7 and d4--d5 he's covering in Part I. Are these ...g6 lines? -- maybe you could let me know the move order?

Portisch, in the book you mention, recommends the ...Be7 system I mention in question (3) of my post. He does also recommend the ...g6 line, but with ...Qe7. Davies, however (on ChessPub), suggests ...Qe7 is inaccurate before/unless White plays Nb1--d2, because of the plan d5, Bxd7, c4 and Nc3; instead he suggests 5 0-0 Bd7 6 c3 Nf6 7 d4 g6 8 Re1 b5 9 Bb3 Bg7. The implication is that the line Emms gives as slightly better for White in NCO (p. 334, note 12), namely 10 de Ne5 11 Ne5 fe 12 Bg5, isn't a serious danger for Black -- see e.g. Schekachev--Malaniuk -- and that Keres, who played this system quite a bit, knew this.

In the 5 Bc6 bc 6 d4 variation (C73), Davies also suggests 6 ...ed!? and 6 ...Bg4!? for Black, ascribing both lines to Keres. After 6 ...ed he gives 7 Nd4 (7 Qd4 c5! 8 Qd3 Ne7!) c5 8 Nf3! (Portisch gives this move as best, but without any analysis) Nf6 9 0-0 Be7 10 Nc3 0-0, but here he doesn't mention Emms's 12 Bg5.

As a general remark, I often get the feeling that quite a few people on here neglect the stuff on ChessPub. There's some very interesting material there -- I have the ChessPub shortcut permanently on my desktop!



  
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Faraday(Guest)
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Re: Ruy Lopez, Modern Steinitz Defence
Reply #4 - 01/28/06 at 11:56:27
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Have you checked out Pete Tamburro's Openings for Amateurs site at www.njscf.org?  Pete's done some fantastic flash lectures for chess.fm and I'm sure he did a series on the Modern Steinitz defence (or similar).  Unfortunately, it's nearly impossible to access the archived lectures but the forum will have some useful info. Here's the link to the table of contentshttp://njscf.proboards2.com/index.cgi?board=contents&action=display&thread=10977...-there's loads on the Modern Steinitz!  

Rob.
  
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