Against Bg4, I can easily imagine That Tim Taylor would give back the pawn and play :


1 f4 e5 2 fxe5 d6 3 exd6 Bxd6 4 Nf3 Bg4 5 e4 Qe7 6.Be2!? Qxe4  7.Nc3 Qe7  8.0-0  with a very slight edge for white with no risk. That's the kind of variation he proposed against 4...Nf6

But I agree with Black widow, I don't see why Bg4 is a poor move...

I was also quite surprised that Taylor doesn't say anything about ...Fg4 in the From gambit. But I think that the part on the From is not the best chapter in Tim Taylor's book 

ref HgMan : Concerning 1.f4 d6, I usually play 2.Cc3 or 2.e4 because I think it's better to wait a little before moving the Ng1.

Nope. Taylor doesn't deal with the poor 4. - Bg4. White's best reply is probably 5. e4 (5. e3 is also ok for white).

HgMan wrote on 02/04/06 at 14:18:51:


(According to Taylor), if you play a typical Bird's set-up against ...c5 then you're conceding Black equality right away, and might get in trouble if you keep trying to "achieve" the e4 push.  When you finally do that, you'll likely be in some Sicilian variation a tempo down. 

If you want to play psychologically as White, he suggests a Stonewall set-up against the would-be Sicilian player.  Theoretically again just equal, but you'll probably be a lot more comfortable with the arising positions than Mr. 1...c5. 

Lucky me:  I frequently play the Stonewall as Black, and frequently, too, the Closed Sicilian as White.  I can't say 1...c5 worries me on any level.

Does 1 ... c5 actually pose objective problems for White, or does it present a psychological problem insofar as White doesn't have to fight for e4 ?  The Dutch is built around not having easy access to e5, so I wonder if the Bird becomes difficult if that struggle doesn't present itself?

But I can't bring myself to think that 1 ... c5 is all that dangerous...

I have written the following in other posts, namely creating a repertoire and in Bird repertoire.

"vs 1.f4

I suggest 1...c5 or 1...d5 I play both. With 1...c5 expect the game to turn into a grand prix sicilian or a closed sicilian and both are fine for Black since I dont know that white may have anything more promising for him.

With 1....d5 Expect a dutch with colors reversed and study accordingly, but pay very close attention to move orders. I can explain this more later if you are interested.

Personally I have a taste for 1... c5 and 1... d5. With 1... c5 Black can hope for play to transpose in some cases to a Grand Prix version of the Sicilian. In other cases, he will be able to play a botvinnik set up ( english) with colors reversed, another solid choice. --- In response to this, HgMan wrote, In response to Bladez, playing 1 ... c5 and hoping for a Grand Prix is ridiculous: why would White play 1 f4 in order to play an inferior Sicilian? When an opponent is faced with this OTB, the Bird can present some unsettling problems, and it's been my experience that Fritz and other engines tend to overestimate Black's chances (which has proved to provide some nice results in correspondence chess)"
So  it is really nice to see that in books and in this forum, other people are stating they know about this fact (since it was never just an opinion)."

Hello,

I am mostly interested in this from the black point of view.

"10--16 pages on 1...c5.  Taylor says that White only try against this is to play an early e4.  If White plays in more normal Bird style, then it takes him two moves to get a pawn to e4, which puts him a tempo down on a lot of Sicilian lines.  Essentially, if White wants an advantage, he can't play a Bird's.  For the sake of the repetorie, Taylor talks about a little-know Sicilian line with e4, Nf3, and Be2, a kind of Grand Prix where White's KB stays at home. "

whilst it might be little known nowdays, people of my generation know of a certain Larsen v Fischer game. So 1..c5 still looks like a reasonable defence then?

Have also tried out in several games what is called in book the receip, and have not found it as easy to get an equal game as I expected. The good thing about the bird, is it tests black's ability to plan. In my own games have not passed this test too well.

Bye John S