Latest Updates:
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Two Knights or The Italian? (Read 13014 times)
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1857
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #35 - 02/07/06 at 15:34:02
Post Tools
Thanks for your replies. I had in fact seen most of the posts you mention, micawber -- they don't actually address 11 ...f5 or (excepting one post smothered in dollar signs!) 6 Bb5 Bd7. As for 11 ...Be7 in the Fritz/Ulvestad, I agree with MNb that the frequently seen "small edge to White" assessment is unreliable, but I wonder if the "dynamism" here mightn't be of the potentially rather drawish kind, hence my interest in 11 ...g6!?. Meanwhile 9 Bb5 Bd7 10 Bc4!? is, I think, very interesting -- I'll take a closer look! Anyone know of any games where this was played?

Michael AYTON
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Simmons(Guest)
Guest


Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #34 - 02/07/06 at 10:41:07
Post Tools
Hello,

    I am changing my mind, the only advantage the two knights seems to have is avoiding the highly symettrical line 3... Bc5 4.Nc3 Nf6 5.d3 d6, where can end up with all the bishops staring at each other! Only preparation black needs though, is a large flask of black coffee.  In other slow lines, i.e with d3, and nd2, black does not seem to gain much by avoiding Bc5, and this might even be his best approach.
            In the sharper lines, black seems to be under a lot less pressure than 4. Ng5 d5 lines. For example, in the Evans Gambit 4... B*b4 5. c3 Ba5 6.0.0 Ng-e7 seems to be holding up well. Not sure what Harding says about this, but noticed he has played the black side in several games.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #33 - 02/07/06 at 09:35:21
Post Tools
I do still worry about the Ulvestad/Fritz though.  None of it 'feels right' to me.  But then I am not one of life's natural gambiteers (the Catalan aside).
  

If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10514
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #32 - 02/07/06 at 01:41:38
Post Tools
"4 ...d5 5 ed b5 6 Bf1 Nd4 7 c3 Nd5 8 Ne4 Ne6 9 Bb5 Bd7 10 Bd7 Qd7 11 0-0"
Indeed I have argued several times, that 11...Be7 leads to dynamic equality. Markovitch and Alumbrado had to agree, though the first still showed a preference for White.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #31 - 02/07/06 at 00:08:34
Post Tools
REPLY TO ASHTON:

The variations you mention are certainly not under-discussed in this forum.

Look at two old threads from januari 2005:
     
Two Knights 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 Na5 6.Bb5† Bd7!? (alumbrado)
Two Knights Defence : Fritz  or Ulvestad ? (photophore)

And a thread from september 2005:
     
Two Knights Defence : Fritz variation (photophore)

TO PHOTOPHORE
I still hope for a reaction/improvement on my analyses of the mainline 2-Kn with 13.b3
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
photophore
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 203
Location: Montesson
Joined: 09/25/04
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #30 - 02/06/06 at 18:00:30
Post Tools
In the line you gave , after 9 Bxb5+ Bd7 , you are not obliged to play
10 Bxd7+ , that IMHO simplifies too much
Another possibility , hitherto almost unexplored is 10 Bc4
Palkovi recommands 10...Bc6 , but i am not sure it's better than the natural
10...Nb6
Anyway , this line deserves further examination
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Michael Ayton
God Member
*****
Offline


‘You’re never alone with
a doppelgänger.’

Posts: 1857
Location: durham
Joined: 04/19/03
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #29 - 02/06/06 at 17:04:39
Post Tools
There are two perhaps under-discussed 4 Ng5 lines which I'd be very interested to have some specialist views on:

I   4 ...d5 5 ed Na5 6 Bb5 Bd7!?

II  4 ...d5 5 ed b5 6 Bf1 Nd4 7 c3 Nd5 8 Ne4 Ne6 9 Bb5 Bd7 10 Bd7 Qd7 11 0-0 f5!?

At my level of chess at least, I'm sure these are both fine (and I'd imagine good) choices, and the stuff on ChessPub seems to be quite positive -- are there any nuances or flies in the ointment I should know about?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #28 - 02/04/06 at 17:18:40
Post Tools
No there is nothing wrong with playing 10...Bc5! As you may have deducted by the fact that I have given a clear improvement on Davies/Emms 11.0-0 line.

But there is something wrong with the suggestion by Emms (quoted without critisism by Davies) to follow Harding-Read to the end.
Fortunately there is an alternative to this in Davies repertoire-book.

As to playing 5....Ne4. Sure this is okay (as is Ng4).
But both Mnb and I are still convinced that
4.d4, exd 5.e5, d5 6.Bb5,Ne4 7.Nxd4,Bc5 is okay for black and can lead to interesting play as well.
(Davies in the 1.e4,e5 section prefers 7...,Bd7 which if this should be best, could be a reason
to switch to the alternative fifth moves).

As for Davies spending some pages on examples how NOT TO PlAY as black. I have no
problems with that It may well help to imprint the reasons for comprehending and following the
correct move-order and plan into the mind of the readers. After all it doesnt hurt to be aware of so of the more dangerous plans white has up his sleave. This may serve as a guidance when playing games that don't follow the exact/ideal move-order.

I am more worried that Davies seems to have ignored the older sources and the commented
correspondence databases, relying on contemporary 'book-wisdom'. This can lead to some unpleasant surprises. The example of 10...Bc5 11.0-0 and the line I've given in this thread is one example.

To give another example on a slightly higher level  Wink. Does anyone remember that in the Kasparov-Anand match Kasparov uncorked a novelty that destroyed Anand playing black in a spanish game? And that this novelty had been played two years
earlier in a correspondence game? Also Harding has quoted quite a few amusing TN's (even ones that got prizes) from Chess Informator that had 'parents' in correspondence games. Unfortunately this risk is IMHO greater in 1.e4,e5 openings than in other openings (because the large number of theme-tournaments played in 1.e4,e5 gambits).

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TalJechin
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no secret ingredient.

Posts: 2892
Location: Malmö
Joined: 08/12/04
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #27 - 02/04/06 at 15:58:18
Post Tools
Quote:
First of all: the exact sequence to the variations is missing. I suppose it is:
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bc4,Nf6 4.Ng5,d5 5.xd5,Na5 6.Bb5+,c6 7.dxc,bxc 8.Be2,h6 9.Nf3,e4 10.Ne5,Bd6
11.d4,exd 12.Nxd,Qc7 13.b3


Is there anything wrong with Davis' recommendation of 10...Bc5,? Avoiding this 13.b3-line, to me it does seem logical to make white delay d2-d4.


Btw, since I haven't got Emm's book yet, I can't say if Davies just follow it too much. But my impression after a few hours of leafing through Play 1.e4 e5 is that its intended audience might well be players like myself who've relied on the various semi open defences most of their life. For example, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Ne4 with the idea of Nc5-e6 was a suggestion I find appealing, probably because it feels a bit 'semi open'...

On the downside, I don't like how he spends his alloted space sometimes, e.g: in the chapter on the Keres variation in the Ruy, he spends two whole illustrative games on "17...f5?" Game 2 and "15...b4?" Game 4. Surely a book for black shouldn't emphasise on how not to play?!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
micawber
God Member
*****
Offline


like many sneaks and skunks
in history he's a poet

Posts: 852
Location: Netherlands
Joined: 09/07/05
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #26 - 02/04/06 at 14:35:51
Post Tools
REPLY TO photophore

Photophore, thx for [another] contribution to chess-discussion, and for directing our attention to an interesting variation.

First of all: the exact sequence to the variations is missing. I suppose it is:
1.e4,e5 2.Nf3,Nc6 3.Bc4,Nf6 4.Ng5,d5 5.xd5,Na5 6.Bb5+,c6 7.dxc,bxc 8.Be2,h6 9.Nf3,e4 10.Ne5,Bd6

[the start of this thread took 10....Bc5 as the main move. Note that after 11.c3,Bd6 black has
shed a tempo but effectively prevented white's build-up with b3/Bb2/Nc3; white's extra tempo
11.c3 probably isn't very usefull. But I might be a bit prejudiced, because 10...Bc5 is my
line of choice Wink].

11.d4,exd 12.Nxd,Qc7

On
13.b3,0-0 14.Bb2,Ne4 15.Nc3

I haven't studied this position very deeply, being a member of the '10..Bc5 congregation'.
But having played through the variations I think that black's best answer probably is:

15.Nc3,Nxc3! {in stead of photophore's  16..f5}
16.Bxc3,c5
17.h3,c4
18.Nb2,Be5
19.Qd2
Until here weve been following
Arachmia-Smyslov (Londen 1996)
And now
19....., cxb3!! (smyslov played a weaker move here and finally lost)

With the tactical point
20.Bxa5?,Qxc2! and white is not able to save the knight on b2!

So white will have to continue:
20.Bxe5,Qxe5
21.axb3  (note that the knight on b2 is pinned;20.cxb3 would run into Ba6!)
21......,  Nc6
22.c3      (to break the pin on Nb2, and prevent something like Nd4)
22......,  Be6 (attacking the b3-pawn and completing black's development)

I think black has enough compensation, with his lead in development and the white King
still stuck into the middle.
White's best course may be to return the pawn shortly in order to castle or exchange queens.


Some other points:
[1] Sutovski didn't repeat the d4/b3-line in 2004 against Beljavski
while Beljavski obviously was willing to face it. A pity he avoided it, or we
probably have gotten a fresh impulse for black in this line. Sad
[2] Black has some other move-orders on his 12th and 13th move.
[3] The b3-line is quite dangerous for black. If black doesn't play aggressive
white can consolidate his position, playing 'only natural' moves.
[4] I have the feeling it will still be a long time, before the truth about the multitude of
lines after 11.d4,xd4 is known. In this way it resembles the Kings-gambit where in spite of
a hundred years of analysis by top-players still not all is solved. Smiley


TO MNB

"Keres is full of dubious and unnecessary sacrifices". Well no wonder I love his books. It could be a description of my playing style  Wink
« Last Edit: 02/04/06 at 17:32:07 by micawber »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Simmons(Guest)
Guest


Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #25 - 02/03/06 at 17:59:45
Post Tools
Hello,

Thanks for that, in blitz games was playing all kinda of stuff, other than Nf6!, to avoid dropping rook as I thought. At least I have learned something.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
photophore
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 203
Location: Montesson
Joined: 09/25/04
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #24 - 02/03/06 at 17:07:53
Post Tools
I have a game with the rook sac : it wins for Black
8 h4 h6 is interpolated , what makes very little change :
7 c3 Nxd5
8 h4 h6
9 Nxf7 Kxf7
10 cxd4 exd4
11 Qf3+ Nf6!
12 Qxa8 Bc5
13 Bxb5 Qe7+
14 Kf1 Ba6
15 Qf3 Re8
16 Kg1 Bxb5
17 Qb3+ Kf8
18 Qxb5 d3     0-1 for 19 Qxd3 Qe1+ , and Qf1 leads to mate in 3 by Bxf2+ 21 Kh2 Qe5+ 22 Kh3 Qg3#
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Simmons(Guest)
Guest


Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #23 - 02/03/06 at 14:06:58
Post Tools
Hello,

In the computer age, a lot of the lines after 4Ng5 are looking dodgey for black. Was experimenting with the Berliner line, mention earlier, in blitz. Instead of theory
approved 7Ne4, when was going to try out 7...Qh4, opponent played 7.N*f7. Game continued 7... K*f7 8.p*d4 e5*d4 9 Qf3+ when it looks like black must sac rook with Nf6, not very familar with the theory.
           By next idea was going to be going back to the standard Na5 lines, but those games posted dont look too encouraging from black point of view.

Bye John S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
photophore
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 203
Location: Montesson
Joined: 09/25/04
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #22 - 02/03/06 at 11:38:23
Post Tools
I just played a thematic on this opening
Here are some of the conclusions I can draw :
All my games , but one , were played with 4 Ng5 as well as White and as Black
In the main line 5..Na5 , Black initiative is just a flash in the pan and I scored 2.5/3 as white with 13 b3
For instance :
CLP/ A. Ward
13 b3 c5
14 Bb2 c4
15 bxc4 Nxc4
16 Bxf6 gxf6
17 O-O Bxh2+
18 Kh1 Be6
19 Nc3 Rd8
20 Qe1 ( as in Sutovski-Aks Tell-Aviv 2001 ) Na3 (an improvement of Pinski )
21 f4! Bg3
22 Qxg3 Qxc3
23 f5! Bxf5
24 Rad1 Be4
25 Bh5        1-0

CLP/ Vincenzo Marrone
13 b3 O-O
14 Bb2 Ne4
15 Nc3 f5
16 h3 Ba6
17 O-O Rad8
18 Qe1 Rfe8
19 Nxe4 Rxe4
20 Qd1 c5
21 Bf3 c4
22 Bxe4 fxe4
23 Ne5 Ba3
24 Bd4 Bb2
25 c3 Bxc3
26 Bxc3 Rxd1
27 Rfxd1 cxb3   1/2-1/2

CLP/ Lars Swahnberg
13 b3 O-O
14 Bb2 Ne4
15 Nc3 f5
16 h3 Ba6
17 O-O Rad8
18 Qe1 c5 ( hereto as Morozevitch-Nenachev Alusta 1994 )
19 Nxe4 fxe4
20 Nf4 Bxe2
21 Nxe2 Rfe8
22 Rd1 Nc6
23 Nc3 Be5
24 Rxd8 Qxd8
25 Bc1 Nd4
26 Nxe4 Nxc2
27 Qe2 Qd4
28 Qc4+ Kh8
29 Nxc5 Bc7
30 Na6 Ne2+
31 Kh1 Bb6
32 Nc5 Nxc1
33 Qxc1 Re2
34 Qc4 Rxa2
35 Ne6 Qd6
36 Rc1 Rd2
37 Qg4 Qe7
38 Rc8+ Bd8
39 f4             1-0
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10514
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: Two Knights or The Italian?
Reply #21 - 01/31/06 at 01:55:00
Post Tools
"On the Fritz/Ulvestad line: Harding gives a lot of analysis on Estrin-Berliner in his book 50 Great Correspondence Games, and concludes that Black is lost."
Only half true. Harding concludes, that Black is lost after 8...Qh4. Regular readers know, that I advocate 8...Ne6, which gives equality in my opinion. I have defended this move in several threads.
3...Nf6 4.d3 d5? imo leads to an advantage for White. More interesting is to keep that option open for a while and continue with 4...Be7/4...Bc5 and 5...o-o. If White plays an early c2-c3, then d7-d5 is considerably stronger.
I simply disagree with Craig, that the resulting positions are uninteresting. Play is slower, sure, but still can become fun.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Topic Tools
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo