I now see that there is another thread altogether looking at this   I will need to take a look at the lines given there!

Hi all,

There is a new Idea in Moeller Attack. Take a look at 14.Qb3!!? (N) - hxg5 15.Rae1 . The Idea is after...Be6 16.dxe - f6
17.Re3-->Th3 without doubleing Pawns and Queen in Action after Change. I tried out in several Blitz Games, but my Opponent always played 15...Kf8!? . After 16.Rxe7-Qxe7 17.Rxe7-Kxe7 18.Qc3 (18.Qe3+ - Kf8 19.Qxg5-Bd7 seems to be OK for Black) with attack c7 and g7. Probably c7 is much more important for black, so 18...Rc8 19.Qxg7-Rhg8 20.Qd4 Position seems to be little better for white, because black Rooks are not connected, several weak pawns (a7 - c7 - g5) , weak squares (f6) and less room. Plz take a look at it and tell me...

Regards

Kuna H. - Gutsche D.,      0.5-0.5, 2000.      
 
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nc3 Nxe4 8. O-O Bxc3 9. d5 Bf6 10. Re1 Ne7 11. Rxe4 d6 12. g4 O-O 13. g5 Be5 14. Nxe5 Bf5 15. Re3 dxe5 16. Rxe5 Qd7 17. Qb3! (better than 17.Qf3)  Ng6 18. Re1 Rfe8 19. Bd2 Ne5 20. Bf1 Bg4 21. Bg2 Qf5 22. Be4 Nf3+ 23. Qxf3 [½:½]



Rufenacht M. - Smit D.      0:1, 1990.      

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 Nf6 5. d4 exd4 6. cxd4 Bb4+ 7. Nc3 Nxe4 8. O-O Bxc3 9. d5 Bf6 10. Re1 Ne7 11. Rxe4 d6 12. g4!? O-O!
13. g5 Be5
14. Nxe5 Bf5!                   Prevents White's manoeuvre Re5-e4-d4 
15. Re3 dxe5 
16. Rxe5 Qd7 
17. b4?,Ng6                    [17. Qf3 Rae8 (17... Bg4? 18. Rxe7);17.Qb3!? see the first game] 
18. Re3 Rae8 
19. Qd4 Rxe3 
20. fxe3, Qe7                  [20. Qxe3 Re8; 20.Bxe3 might be best, but still better for black] 
21. Bb2?,Qxg5+              [21. h4 Re8 22. Bb5,c6 or 22. Kf2 Ne5]
22. Kh1 Nh4!
[23. Rg1 Qxg1+ 24. Kxg1 Nf3+] 
[0:1]

My opinion thus far:
Not a very pleasant variation for white, but the last word hasnt been spoken.
Improvements must be looked for on the 17th move.

Thx Kamil for your constructive reaction. Finally again someone with an interesting contribution
to the discussion.

18......Rab8! is indeed the strongest reply. This has been known for quite some time.
The oldest reference Cillo-I.Szabo, cor. 1972. Unfortunately I dont have this game in my
database; source NIC YB 4 gives no additional moves.

19.Qxa7  [19.Qxa2 as in your post is somewhat illegal  ] 19...,Nxd5 20.Nf3?, Rxb2 21.Qd4,Qb5 
or 21...Rb5 -+ (analysis Szabo/Konikowski)

I can supply what Harding had in mind.
20.Qd4!?,c6 21.Nf3,Rb4 22.Qd2,Rxe4 23.Rxe4,Ra8 24.a3,Nf6
with an unclear endgame (notes by Harding on the game Palagi-Mann, corr 1986).

However is 20...c6 the strongest move? There seems room for doubt.
If black plays 20...Qf5 instead of c6, Rb4 becomes a real threat.
and 20...Qf5 21.Nf3,Rb4 22.Nh4,Qg5 23.Qd1,Rxb2 looks decidedly unconfortable for white
{Arnold Perier Felipe (ESP) 2192 - Izeta Txabarri Felix (ESP) 2525, Euskadi (Spain) 1997}
The result is not only explained by the rating difference.

The only alternative is 20...Qf5 21.Nh3 but then 21...Rb4! forces white to play
22.g4 in order to avoid total disaster. The position after somthing like
20....Qf5 21.Nh3,Rb4! 22.g4,Rxd4 (only move) 23.gxf,Rd2 (or is Rxe4 to be preferred)
24.R4e2,Rxe2 25.Rxe2,Ra8 26.a3,Kf8 27.Rd2,Ne7 28.f6,exf6 needs further study. 
Though there is no doubt that I would certainly prefer black.

I don't share your sentiments on 9...Ne5. In my view it is certainly the most practical reply
when faced with this variation over the board. the fact that this move was endorsed by Karpov
also should count for something. In correspondence play, with the backup of theory and with ample
time to look through the maze of variations the situation is of course different. Which probably
counts for the fact that I could easily find 18 correspondence examples, but hardly any recent
OTB-encounters with 9...Bf6.

I will react to the rest of your post later on. Looking some more into the 'merits of 16...f6 and 16...f5' 

Tim Harding has a new article on the greco on chesscafe (7/3/2006). 
I noticed some interesting points in this article:
(a) TH now claims that after
      6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Nxe4 8.o-o Bxc3 9.d5 Bf6 10.Rfe1 Ne7 11.Rxe4 d6 12.Bg5 Bxg5 13.Nxg5 h6 
(a1) 14.Bb5+,Bd7 variation is not entirely clear.
(a2) There is a large piece of analysis on the variation 
       14.Qe2 hxg5 15.Rae1 Be6 16.dxe6 f5 
      suggesting that white may try for a win (perhaps black is better adviced to play f6)
       But the complications in this line are gigantic. It's unlikely that an unprepared black player
       can hold out against a white player who has this var on his repertoire.
(b) TH endorses the variations with 9.....Ne5 as both Willempie and I suggested as a better way
for black to play for a win.

Hello,

Tim Harding covered these lines in a series of articles at Chess Cafe, including the g4 idea.

http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz70.pdf

Somehow, white won this case, even though most of the evidence seems to be for black. 

Bye John S

Why oh why do people want to reinvent the wheel for the dozenth time? George Botterill wrote a very nice book called Open Gambits back in 1986.
"The Greco-Möller Attack is practically moribund" for four reasons:
6.cxd4 Bb4+ 7.Nc3 Nxe4 8.o-o Bxc3 9.d5 Bf6 10.Rfe1 Ne7 11.Rxe4
a)11.. d6 12.Bg5 Bxg5 13.Nxg5 h6
a1)14.Bb5+ Bd7 15.Qe2 (15.Nxf7 Kxf7 16.Qf3+ Kg8 17.Rae1 Ng6 -+) Bxb5 16.Qxb5+ Qd7 17.Qe2 Kf8 18.Nxf7 Kxf7 19.Re1 Ng8 "so far as I can see White is simply lost". Heyken/Fette, Theorie der Schach-Eröffnungen, 1988, agree.
a2)14.Qe2 hxg5 15.Rae1 Be6 16.dxe6 f6 (f5 17.Rd4 is about equal according to H/F) 17.Re3 c6 (Kf8 18.Qd3!?) 18.Rh3 Rxh3 19.gxh3 g6 and maybe 20.Bd3!?
b)11.. d6 12.Bg5 Bxg5 13.Nxg5 0-0 14.Nxh7 Kxh7 15.Qh5+ Kg8 16.Rh4 f6 17.g4 Re8 18.Bd3 Kf8 19.Qh8+ Ng8 20.Bh7 Kf7 21.Bg6+ Kf8 draw.
c)as in line b: 14...Bf5!? 15.Rh4 Re8 16.Qh5 Ng6 17.Rd4 Bc2!?
d)11...o-o 12.d6 cxd6 13.Qxd6 Nf5 14.Qd5 Ne7 15.Qd6 Nf5 draw. After 13.Bg5 Ng6 14.Qd5 Ne7 "White is struggling to show compensation for his gambit."
To me it seems, that Botterill's conclusions are very conclusive.
Maybe White can rehabilitate one of these four lines, but certainly not all four. Those who want to play in Greco-Möller spirit should spend their time on 6.o-o!?