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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote! (Read 19063 times)
Willempie
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #29 - 09/23/07 at 10:20:47
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Dont be too quick Wink Check this months analysis of Shirov-Guliyev and Shabalov-Ehlvest. I have some ideas in the former, but unfortunately Richard has published part of my idea before I have a chance to show it on the board. I think he is rather optimistic about white's chances in one line. So I am still hoping to get to show it in my ICCF game...
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #28 - 09/23/07 at 07:23:09
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I am rather proud to have correctly predicted the return of 6.Bg5 over a year ago (I think) on this very forum, much to the scepticism of Semprun and others.

As I said back then that the decline of 6.Bg5 was more due to fashion than anything else, as players continued to investigate fresh fertile ground like the English attack as a universal weapon against the Sicilian defence. Now that the 6.Be3 hysteria has begun to wane a bit, players are re-discovering what I already new, that is 6.Bg5 is still an extremely dangerous and strong move that is far from being played out.

I totally disagree that 6.Bg5 is unsuitable for correspondence play, quite the opposite in fact. I believe that a strong creative player with a powerful chess engine would be deadly with this line in correspondence play.

In an interview on WCN, that is when there was a WCN, Larry Christiansen in an interview noted that there was a computer on ICC that was virtually invincible with 6.Bg5 as White, especially against PP practitioners, Human and Computer opposition alike.

The fact is that the PP is so complex and engines so powerful now as to render most of the ancient analysis on this variation virtually obsolete. Nowadays, particularly in sharp lines like the PP everything must be re-checked with a a fine toothed comb.

Much has been made of how well computers defend bad positions, but in truth when guided they are just as ruthless in attack.

I wonder what Semprun and some of the others who proclaimed 6.Bg5 a dead fossil must be  thinking now.

Anyway I will try not to say I told ya so.  Wink

Toppy Smiley      
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #27 - 08/17/07 at 10:05:43
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Hi,

looking at this thread it might be that Shirov found the "antipoison".

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1187125791

Lou
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #26 - 08/14/07 at 09:51:38
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salut Photophore,
Very good idea ! 
thanks
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #25 - 08/13/07 at 21:57:33
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Salut Dji!
I shall comment it on ajec.org forum as sonn it is finished Bien Amicalement Claude
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #24 - 08/13/07 at 18:09:07
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On peut la voir cette partie!
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #23 - 08/13/07 at 13:10:04
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However 6 Bg5 has known a revival these recent years  , leading to PP , by top GMs ( namely Radjabov , Shirov , and Anand ) , with some success
They all adopted the rather ill-famed 10 e5
Most significative is Anand-Van Wely Corus 2007 : it's a "long" game , between top players and analysis shows it's surely a prepared variation (by Anand )
I replayed this game in French Championship 2007-2008 , up to move 22 , but my opponent found an improvement on the play of Van Wely ,and , most likely , it will be drawn
It will be my third draw with the PP
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #22 - 08/13/07 at 13:02:14
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Somewhere I saw a detailed analysis by Tim Harding of a correspondence game that he played featuring the poisoned pawn. He claimed that the line leads to a forced draw. Furthermore most of the analysis is very well known.

So only play Bg5 in correspondence if your opponent has a much higher rating and a draw is a great result.

  

I am hopelessly addicted to the King's Gambit
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #21 - 08/13/07 at 11:37:38
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Up!
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #20 - 07/24/06 at 13:49:13
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Those interested in the PP have probably seen this, but if not do visit: http://www.chesscafe.com/TIM/kibb.htm
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #19 - 07/24/06 at 01:22:32
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Any improvements for White in the main line 10.Bxf6 gxf6 11.Be2 Nc6 12.Nxc6 bxc6 13.0-0 Qa5 14.Kh1 Be7 15.f5 h5 ?
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #18 - 07/23/06 at 18:37:59
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photophore,

I think a nice simple line for White against the Poison Pawn variation which also gives Black a lot of problems is :

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 a6 6.Bg5 e6 7.f4 Qb6 Angry

8.Qd2! - this move has to be played if white wants to try for an advantage; 8...Qxb2 9.Rb1 Qa3 10.Bxf6!? gxf6 11.Be2!?

This is the starting position and now white's plan ( put simply) is to 0-0....f5....and Bh5 putting Black's king and f7 square under a lot of pressure. This is one of the main lines and can get very tactical but if white keeps to his plan of hitting f7 and a possible attack on the kingside with his rooks....one idea is to play Rb3 and swing it across to the kingside..another to infiltrate with Qh6 if Black plays Be7. A very difficult game ensues, but white should not be worse in any line unless he allows Black to swop off the heavy pieces when Black's pawn advantage will usually tell.

|I think this is a good antidote and takes the game to Black who is then more under pressure in the middlegame; however, you need strong nerves !

Kenny Harman
ICCF IM / ECF National Chess Coach

  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #17 - 07/21/06 at 12:09:28
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Salut Photophore,

Have a look to Adamson,R  - Shabalov,A  and Andrade,R  -  Novikov,I

The second is draw but the position of the B97 Najdorf specialist Novikov was very bad at move 39.

That one of the main line and i wouldn't play it as black!

Dji
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #16 - 04/24/06 at 15:29:03
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Hi Fernando!
I played a Nd5 sac some months ago , and it was sound! : it was against a 2150 ICCF
Recently , I played a Rxf6 in the game I reported higher in this thread
and yet it's far less common tha Nd5
Moreover , I have much better than Fritz , and I use it to check my moves :
Then , unless you have Hydra....
Friendly Yours
Claude Le Page
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #15 - 04/20/06 at 20:10:10
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I would also add that 6.Bg5 is unsuitable for correspondence unless you are part of the few chosen that can find novelties BETTERING fritz/friends (it happens sometimes, but you have to be extremely lucky that your opponent follows suit)

For example all those Nd5 sacs in the Be7 (Nbd7) lines are simply unsound in correspondence chess (IMHO) Unless you are a Shabalov or Maia Chiburdanidze in her younger years!
  

Fernando Semprun
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #14 - 04/17/06 at 10:42:56
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Luther's PP material certainly isn't fully convincing as I discovered when working on 'Starting Out: Sicilian Najdorf'. For OTB players some of White's older lines might still contain some practical sting: will Black, for instance, remember (know?) about 9 Rb1 Qa3 10 e5 dxe5 11 fxe5 Nfd7 12 Ne4 (12 Bc4 could also be scary to face if one hasn't seen/studied this for several years) 12...h6 13 Bb5!? (a very visual position!) when Black must give up his queen, albeit for promising comp, with 13...axb5 14 Nxb5 hxg5!.
Kasparov's latest DVD suggests that he wasn't entirely comfortable with 8 Nb3 when facing Leko. I think he was probably OK until 17...dxc5?!, but, as Gazza explains, Anand's 8...Be7 9 Qf3 Nbd7 10 0-0-0 Qc7 11 Bd3 h6!?, playing in true Browne style, is probably best. White can probably still play this position though and will all PP players be aware of the Browne System's subtleties?
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #13 - 04/12/06 at 04:43:27
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I agree with Markovich's statement that there are plenty of lines that Fritz or Hiarcs may consider to be good that aren't.  However, GM Kosten was almost certainly referring to computers' notorious ability to find good defensive moves in positions that would make humans squirm. 

I don't play correspondence, but I imagine the hydra effect (human and computer working together) would avoid the lines that computers alone would consider playable.  (Yeah, I know the Laws of Chess, but also know the ways of humans. Cry )
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #12 - 04/11/06 at 17:02:41
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For a recent game in the 8.Nb3 line, look at Naiditsch-Smeets from Corus this year. It's sharp, but initial analysis seems to show that white's sacs are probably no worse than +=. Give it a look, anyway - it's an interesting plan from the white side.

Tom
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #11 - 03/23/06 at 13:22:55
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photophore wrote on 02/20/06 at 09:56:42:
Hi MNb!
If White has no better than concede a draw , it means he has not enough for the  pawn , and that 8 Qd2 is unsound :
better is to lose a tempo by 8 a3 or 8 Nb3 and reach a balanced position with equal material : after all , it's the status of he initial position
Among the games between top GM with 8 a3 I notice:
Ivanchuk-Topalov  Dos Hermanas 1996 1/2-1/2
Leko-Shirov Wijk an Zee 2001
Kosteniuk-Obolenski Kazan 2005  1-0
Maybe this variation is not so bad!
Friendly Yours
Claude Le Page



Personally I think that 8. Qd2 Qxb2  9. Nb3 is no worse for White than the initial position, which is to say, +=.  By that I mean, there may exist a draw, but Black's task is more difficult.  With the greatest respect for GM Kosten's contrary view, I would happily take the White side of this in a CC game: there is plenty of scope for bad play by Black that Fritz or Hiarcs would consider good.
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #10 - 03/22/06 at 17:31:37
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Having spotted Luther's article in "Experts against the Sicilian", I lazily decided to try his 6 Bg5 receommendations in a correspondence match. My opponent, a strong player, chose the PP and the result was not encouraging for White - I don't think I'm going to play it again, even OTB.

[Event "BFCC club ch"]
[Site "?"]
[Date "2003.??.??"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Adams, P"]
[Black "Hall, RVM"]
[Result "0-1"]
[ECO "B97"]
[PlyCount "70"]
[EventDate "2003.??.??"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 a6 6. Bg5 e6 7. f4 Qb6 8. Qd2 Qxb2 9. Nb3 Qa3 10. Bxf6 gxf6 11. Be2 h5 12. O-O Nd7 13. f5 Be7 14. Qd4 b5 15.Rf3 Bb7 16. fxe6 fxe6 17. Rh3 Bd8! (A strong novelty, but one which I should have spotted in advance had I been doing my homework properly. Luther gave only 17...h4 18. Bg4 Kf7 19. Nd5 "and White had a big attack." Guseinov,G (2489)-Villavicencio Martinez,A (2308)/Stockholm 2002.) ) 18. Kh1 Bb6 19. Qd2 O-O-O 20. Rf1 Kb8 21. Rxh5 Bc7 22.Rh6 Rxh6 23. Qxh6 b4 24. Nb1 Qxa2 25. N1d2 Qb2 26. Bc4 Qe5 27. Bd3 d5 28. Nf3 Qd6 29. exd5 Bxd5 30. Nbd2 f5 31. Bc4 Bxc4 32. Nxc4 Qd5 33. Qh4 a5 34. Re1 Nb6 35. Nxb6 Bxb6 0-1 My opponent was not impressed with my choice of opening, commenting "I can't think that your line as White is good in a correspondence game when I have all the time I need to find the best defence."
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #9 - 03/22/06 at 16:08:28
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Hello,

Yep I sure did. Doh!, missed pair of moves completely. In my mind, thought point of early f5, was to save time on Kh1. Anyway your line is getting closer to transposing to Short v Kasparov, will look at again a bit more carefully this time.

Bye John S
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #8 - 03/22/06 at 14:12:03
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You forget 15 Kh1 , and Qc5 is no more with check
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #7 - 03/22/06 at 13:27:38
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Hello,

This line does not seem to work, 17 ...NxN 18 pxN B*R 19 Q*B Qc5+ followed by Qe5.

Been looking to find a more aggressive line myself against the Najdorf, and have looked through experts v Sicillian.
   Against Poisoned Pawn they recommend 9Nb3, based around Short v Kasparov 95. Seem to suggest that Kasparov was losing right out of the opening, which seems highly unlikely, since he kept on playing the poisoned after this game. (This game was with 13.Kh1, although  13f5 is mentioned in passing too.)
      Bye John S
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #6 - 03/15/06 at 08:45:06
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Hi Tony!
I thank you very much for your advice!
But I can't give up 6 Bg5 , that suits so well my temper
So I went on to analyze , and I found the following variation:
1 e4 c5
2 Nf3 d6
3 d4 cxd4
4 Nxd4 Nf6
5 Nc3 a6
6 Bg5 e6
7 f4 Qb6
8 Qd2 Qxb2
9 Nb3 Qa3
10 Bxf6 gxf6
11 Be2 h5
12 O-O Nd7
13 f5 Be7
14 Qd4 Nc5
15 Kh1 h4
16 fxe6 fxe6
17 Rxf6!
The Rook is taboo , and W gets at worst an equal endgame
Curiously enough I couldn't find any trace of this line , neither in Nunn , nor
In my databases
Would it be a TN ?
Friendly Yours
Claude Le Page
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #5 - 02/21/06 at 13:26:36
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Firstly, I think that anyone who is well prepared with White will win a lot of games whichever line he plays with White (after the pawn sac that is, if he doesn't give a pawn then I don't think White has anything)! Black has an extra pawn, and a positional advantage, but he is behind in development and his king is often very exposed.
Most of the sharp lines lead to White getting a strong attack, and if Black can't remember the theory, or is unable to analyse as well as a computer, Undecided then he will likely lose quickly! In the 3 games I analysed last month White made 2.5 pts, which isn't bad! Smiley
Still, I agree that this is only applicable to OTB chess!
In correspondence chess I think White should play another 6th move!
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #4 - 02/21/06 at 09:30:07
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Hi MNb!
on't forget I'm a corr. player , and tournaments are qualificative ones : only the winner gets something ( in my case access to masterclass )
Then , it's important to have a fair chance to win with White
In main line 7 f4 Be7 W gets an attack , and Black has a chance only if he can counter it : so it gives a good chance fr an attacking player
I analyzed number of games in PP : White can win only if Black makes a blunder
But it's unlikely in corr. play ( and so more with computers ) , and W has to fight for a draw
There is no strategy , just MOVES
After 8 Nb3 or 8 a3 , W position is not quite so good as after 7 f4 Be7 , but is it so different with 6 Be2 e5 7 Nb3 , or 6 Be3 e5 7 Nb3 ?
At least , there are strategical options
Friendly Yours
Claude Le Page
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #3 - 02/21/06 at 01:52:56
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Hi ClP,

"If White has no better than concede a draw , it means he has not enough for the  pawn , and that 8 Qd2 is unsound"
This I do not understand. It means he has just enough for the pawn but nothing more.
Further your line of reasoning is correct. I wanted to make clear though, that 7...Qb6 is superior to 7...Qc7, 7...Nbd7 and 7...Be7 if 7...Qb6 8.Nb3 is best what White can do.
So I would bet on either 8.a3 or 8.Qd2 Qxb2 9.Nb3.
Two golden oldies:
8.a3 Nc6 9.Nf3 Ng4 10.Qd2 h6 11.Bh4 g5 12.fxg5 hxg5 13.Bxg5 Qxb2 14.Rb1 Qxa3 15.Bd3 Bg7 16.Nd1 Qc5 -+ Szabo-Tringov, Kecskemet 1964
8.a3 Nc6 9.Nb3 (arguing, that Qb6 and Nc6 are not ideally placed) h6 10.Bxf6 gxf6 11.Qf3 Bd7 12.o-o-o o-o-o 13.Na4 Qa7 14.c4 Na5 15.Nxa5 Bxa4 16.Rd2 Be7 17.Be2 Kb8 18.Qc3 Rc8 Murej-Quinteros, Olympiade 1982.

Ch.gr.
MNb
  

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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #2 - 02/20/06 at 09:56:42
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Hi MNb!
If White has no better than concede a draw , it means he has not enough for the  pawn , and that 8 Qd2 is unsound :
better is to lose a tempo by 8 a3 or 8 Nb3 and reach a balanced position with equal material : after all , it's the status of he initial position
Among the games between top GM with 8 a3 I notice:
Ivanchuk-Topalov  Dos Hermanas 1996 1/2-1/2
Leko-Shirov Wijk an Zee 2001
Kosteniuk-Obolenski Kazan 2005  1-0
Maybe this variation is not so bad!
Friendly Yours
Claude Le Page
  
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Re: Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
Reply #1 - 02/20/06 at 02:22:05
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"I need an antidote!"
There isn't any; the poisoned pawn is exactly the reason why leading GM's like Beljavsky and Timman have given up the 6.Bg5 variation about 20 years ago.
8.Nb3 and Black will play Qc7 at some stage; Nb3 is more passively placed than Nd4.
As far as I know 9.Rb1 leads to a draw in several long, forced variations; 9.Nb3 is unclear, but White does not have an advantage.
So you might consider a 6th move alternative; but the truth is, that 6...a6 is equal.
  

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Najdorf Poisoned Pawn : I need an antidote!
02/19/06 at 17:34:11
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As White , I play 6 Bg5 against the Najdorf , but up to now , Ihad never to meet the Poisoned Pawn
I studied the main line 9 Rb1 , and I had the feeling that Black are winning in all variations : anyway none gives White a good attack as in main line
So I was quite compelled to choose 9 Nb3 , but here too , nothing is clear , and I have the unpl:easant feeling of understanding nothing to the positition : I know no more WHAT move to play , and still more WHY I play it
And at analysis , my engines all favour Black , not very much ( -0.3 to -0.8 ) , but enough to ensure that against good play as in corr. play , White has not enough for the pawn
And yet I have the feeling that Black Queen's excursion is unsound :
So White ought not to play 8 Qd2 ,but a move that doesn't sac a pawn
There are 2 : 8 Nb3 and 8 a3 ( very few analyzed )
Probably they don't give advantage to White , but at leat they guarantee a playable middlegame , and the opponent can make a mistake...
There is probaly better , but what ??
Hi the Najdorf experts!
Help me!
  
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