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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Old good Steinitz defence (Read 12399 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #16 - 12/23/19 at 13:13:45
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@IsaVulpes - Another move order to consider is 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O Be7 as advocated by Portisch.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #15 - 12/23/19 at 08:50:08
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Once upon a time 7. Bxc6 bc 8. Qf3 was given as leading to an edge for White after 8...c5 9. Nf5 Bxf5 10. Qxf5 Qd7 11. Qf3 Qg4 12. Qd3! Be7 13. Nc3 (Keres).
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #14 - 12/23/19 at 07:12:01
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While I was not too unhappy with the aforementioned Qd3/f3 + 0-0-0 plan, it still always kinda felt like Black got "too much" in the direct ..exd4 lines, and there was the added issue of just getting moveordered via 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.0-0 d6, when obviously all those plans around long castling are out the window.

I was hoping for Caruana to teach me how to deal with this, but he only covered 4.d4 Bd7 5.d5, as well as ..g6 plans in the Nxd4 line, so I had to stop being lazy and find something of my own against the old standard ..Nf6 ..Be7 business.

This is what I came up with:

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.d4 exd4 5.Nxd4 Bd7 6.0-0 Nf6
And now, instead of the standard 7.Nc3, I've taken a liking to
7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.Qf3!?

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The first positive thing of note is that this can be done against both moveorders - 3..Nf6 4.0-0 d6 5.d4 exd4 6.Nxd4 Bd7 7.Bxc6 is a direct transposition.

The line has three main points:
A) e4-e5 quickly becomes a significant threat, as the Qf3 will target c6
B) The delayed development of the queenside Knight allows us to push c2-c4, and Nc3 only afterwards, clamping the Black qside
C) Similarly, we might develop it to d2 instead of c3, which doesn't obstruct a potential Bb2, and allows even the Knight to land on c4 eventually

Here are some sample lines:

- 8. ..Be7?! 9.e5! Nd5 (9..dxe5 10.Nxc6 Bxc6 11.Qxc6+ Nd7 12.Rd1 Bd6 13.Nc3 0-0 14.Ne4±) 10.exd6 cxd6 (Compi actually prefers [10..Bxd6 11.Re1+ Kf8], but it's not hard to see that something went wrong here for Black) 11.c4 c5 12.Qxd5 cxd4 13.Qxd4 += ; The Bishop pair does not sufficiently counterbalance structure + an extra pawn

- 8. ..c5!? 9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 This looks a bit strange at a glance, but here it's important that we can put the Black queenside in jail, and slowly improve from there.
Eg: 10..Be7 ([10..d5!? 11.c4 Be7 (11..d4?? 12.Qc6+! Nd7 13.Bh6!!+-) 12.Nc3 d4 13.Qc6+ Kf8] is legal, but.. yeah) 11.c4! 0-0 12.Nc3 Qd7 13.b3, and the only active idea that I could come up with, pushing the d-pawn, doesn't lead anywhere -
13..c6 14.Bg5 Rad8 15.Rad1 h6 16.Bh4 Rfe8 17.Rfe1 d5 18.g4!? d4 19.Na4!± ; the Knight will get back into the game via b2-d3 and blockade perfectly, we can calmly keep improving with Kg2 & h3, Black has nothing to do. At some point, his structure will start telling..
Naturally that line isn't forced, but what else is Black going to do?

- 8..Rb8 seemed the most promising to me, but White still has a pretty simple recipe: 9.b3 Be7 10.Bb2 0-0 11.Nd2! here C) finally becomes relevant 11..c5 12.Nf5 Bxf5 13.Qxf5! Qd7 14.Qxd7 Nxd7 and here I clicked around a bit; the very best I found for Black were some unpleasant Rook endgames if White pushes e4-e5 early & trades a bunch of material - but he's never really forced to, and can instead prod forever.

Hole-punching welcome!
  
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IsaVulpes
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #13 - 05/24/18 at 11:55:35
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Pantu wrote on 12/30/06 at 16:03:54:
Well I happen to have Opening for White according to Anand vol 1 by my side as a I read this (back in the day before El Khalif got carried away e.g. the Petroff main lines only took 43 pages  Shocked )

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.d4 Bd7 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Qd3 exd4 8.Nxd4 Be7 9.Nf5! is the difference e.g.

a) 9...O-O 10.Bg5

Not really a line one meets often or should bother anyone all too much (nor is Bg5 bad, of course), but because I like the move aesthetically:
Instead of 10.Bg5, modern Stockfish after some pondering quite enjoys 10.Bh6!

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The only move for Black that doesn't pretty much lose on the spot is 10. ..Ne8, after which he is extremely cramped and all his pieces are sort-of falling over each other, so at that point you just retreat the Bishop again via 11.Bd2 (e3/f4 also probably fine squares) and Black can't really unravel; eg a quick sample line continues



And White's attack is a good deal scarier than Black's queenside counterplay with the comical assortment of pieces on d8-e8-f8-d7-e7.
  
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an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #12 - 02/19/15 at 00:27:45
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RE: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.d4 Bd7 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Qd3.

I thought this line was credited to Nimzowitsch.

Alesab wrote on 12/29/06 at 08:37:34:
Again, i don't think after 6. Bxc6 bxc6 7. Qd3 Black is forced to play exd4, so, as Black, i would be happy if it would be the best plan for white!


Alesab wrote on 01/02/07 at 09:06:30:
And what about 7...Qe7!


We had a player at the club who took up this line with 7...exd4. A friend and I looked at both 7...Nd7 and 7...Qe7. After 7...Qe7 try: 8.Bg5 h6 9.Bxf6 Qxf6 10.O-O-O Be7 11.dxe5 dxe5 12.Nd5 Qd6 13.Qc3 +-. Of course black can avoid the worst with ...exd4 at some point, but then white gets what he wants.
  
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Alesab
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #11 - 01/02/07 at 09:06:30
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And what about 7...Qe7!
  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #10 - 12/30/06 at 16:03:54
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Well I happen to have Opening for White according to Anand vol 1 by my side as a I read this (back in the day before El Khalif got carried away e.g. the Petroff main lines only took 43 pages  Shocked )

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 d6 4.d4 Bd7 5.Nc3 Nf6 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Qd3 exd4 8.Nxd4 Be7 9.Nf5! is the difference e.g.

a) 9...O-O 10.Bg5 Bd7 11.Nxe7+ Qxe7 12.O-O-O Bc6 13.Qd4 Rfe8 14.f3 +=

b) (the main line) 9...g6 10.Ng7+!? Kf8 11.Bh6 Kg8 12.Nf5! with some continuing analysis leading to at least += in all variations.
  
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Alesab
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #9 - 12/29/06 at 08:37:34
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yes, of course! Black has to concede centre and space advantage with 7...exd4
to avoid the Tarrasch-Marco trap.

but after...

1. e4 e5 2. nf3 nc6 3. bb5 d6 4. d4 bd7 5. nc3 nf6 6. 0-0 be7 7. re1 exd4 8. nxd4 0-0

how can white play??? which is his best plan??


Again, i don't think after 6. Bxc6 bxc6 7. Qd3 Black is forced to play exd4, so, as Black,
i would be happy if it would be the best plan for white!
  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #8 - 12/28/06 at 18:26:38
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Oops, should have read the previous posts more closely -- Sorry MNb.  Looks like I should be associating 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Qd3 with Spielmann, not Smyslov.
  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #7 - 12/28/06 at 18:24:17
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I *think* I was taught that it can also be played this way, when Black has no better option than to cede the center:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 d6 4. d4 Bd7 5. Nc3
Nf6 6.Bxc6 Bxc6 7.Qd3

For some reason I associate this with Smyslov, but I'm not finding any games he had with this position at the moment.
  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #6 - 12/28/06 at 18:17:46
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Yes -- a model game in the RL.

[Event "?"]
[Site "Dresden"]
[Date "1892.??.??"]
[White "Tarrasch,Siegbert"]
[Black "Marco,George"]
[Round "?"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "C62"]

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 d6 4. d4 Bd7 5. Nc3
Nf6 6. O-O Be7 7. Re1 O-O 8. Bxc6 Bxc6 9. dxe5
dxe5 10. Qxd8 Raxd8 11. Nxe5 Bxe4 12. Nxe4 Nxe4 13. Nd3
f5 14. f3 Bc5+ 15. Nxc5 Nxc5 16. Bg5 Rd5 17. Be7
Re8 18. c4 1-0

  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #5 - 12/28/06 at 11:57:12
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Isn't 7 Re1 the intro to the Tarrasch Trap, thus supposedly forcing Black to concede the centre with ..exd4?
  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #4 - 12/28/06 at 11:11:55
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So, which is the main line in the Stainitz defence ??
The Bxc6 - 0-0-0 plan doesn't seem so dangerous.

Which is the teorically best plan for white here?
  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #3 - 02/27/06 at 22:07:09
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Thanks. Mr Mnb for black i prefer 8.Nxd4 Be7 and if 9.Bg5 00 10.000 Bxe4! (sure a fritzy move) and black is fine

PS. i tried to register but without success, any advice ? by the way what is the interest ?
  
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Re: Old good Steinitz defence
Reply #2 - 02/27/06 at 18:43:04
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The Bxc6 and 0-0-0 plan is also advocated in Gary Lane's "The Ruy Lopez Explained"

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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