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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 (Read 2978 times)
iggystiv
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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #10 - 03/01/06 at 07:11:17
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In this line; 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cd5: Nd5: 5.Bg2 Nb6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.0-0 Be7 8.d3 0-0 9.a3 Re8, 8.a3 is better than 8.d3, while the plan with Re8 and Bf8 I believe is too slow and allows white to get going with his plans first.

In this line; 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nc6 5.e3 e6 6.Nge2 Nge7 7.o-o o-o, 7.Nf4 or 8.Nf4 is more interesting and the only try for white.  Dunno if it's good, maybe you can tell me.

In this line: 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nc6 and now d6, Qd7, Bc3:  followed by b6, Bb7 and 0-0-0, look for a recent game with Ivanchuk and Morozevich.  Amber Blindfold, I think.
  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #9 - 02/28/06 at 17:52:24
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Thx for all your suggestions!
As I gradually want to get away from the Leningrad I don't think I would like the lines that are similar to a closed sicilian.
The reversed sicilian lines after 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5/ 3.Nf3 Nc6 4.g3 d5 look interesting, but as a dragon player I consider the classical dragon harmless and I'm not so sure if black has a good plan with chances to equalize.
Does anybody have some exprerience with the lines like 1.c4 e5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.g3 d5 4.cd5: Nd5: 5.Bg2 Nb6 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.0-0 Be7 8.d3 0-0 9.a3 Re8 followed by Bf8 ? That looks like the most interesting try for black to me.
From all the suggestions, I like MNBs lines with c5,g6,Bg7,Nc6 and e6 best. e6 is probably more solid and less committal than e5, but still gives black chances for counterplay. I will try that in some online games.
Another interesting idea I have come across is 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nc6 and now d6, Qd7, Bc3:  followed by b6, Bb7 and 0-0-0 from black (almost regardless what white plays). This could be a positional way to unbalance the position and to create winning chances against a weaker player.

@Bonsai and anyone interested in 1.c4 g5:
I will post my thoughts on 1.c4 g5 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5 4.d5 h6 5.e4 Bc3: in the Myers' Opening thread.
  
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Klick
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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #8 - 02/28/06 at 08:21:48
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Yeah, I forgot.

Vs. 1.Nf3 you still go 1...c5
  

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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #7 - 02/28/06 at 08:15:35
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"Lately I tried to play 1.c4 c5 in internet blitz, but the variations I have troubles with is when white doesn't touch his d-pawn and plays 1.c4 c5 2.g3 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nc6 and now either 5.Nf3, e4, a3,...
I played a setup with e5, Nge7, d6 but my results were clearly worse than with Myers Opening (1.c4 g5)  "

1...c5 is the move I least like to face when playing the english. If the Sicilian is your choice against 1.e4 I would go for 1...c5 vs. the english as well. Notice that many strong players has 1...c5 in their repertoire, it is interesting to see how they handle it. Vs. for instance 5.a3 and 5.Nf3 they often maintain symmetry for a long time, breaking it just when they seem fit. A not uncommon line is something like 1. c4 c5 2. g3 g6 3. Bg2 Bg7 4. Nc3 Nc6 5. a3 a6 6. Rb1 Rb8 7. b4 cxb4 8. axb4 b5 9. cxb5 axb5 10. Nf3 Nf6 11. O-O O-O 12. d4 d5   In my opinion it is in this position not so easy for white to prove any advantage at all. Check the database.

Tony Kosten wrote a nice book on the english called "The dynamic english" but in my opinion had problems finding decent continuations for white in several of these 1...c5-lines.

With 5.e4 white can dodge the whole issue and go for a botvinnik-setup,
but the big weakness with respect to "normal" Botvinnik-positions is that black has not played ...e5, so that the black g7-bishop is controlling the long diagonal and the square d4.

A reversed Botvinnik-setup for black is also a very good option. I analysed this with a friend of mine and discovered that white had to be careful with his moves: 1. c4 c5 2. g3 Nc6 3. Bg2 g6 4. Nc3 Bg7 5. Nf3 d6 6. O-O e5 7. a3 a5 8. d3 Nge7 9. Bg5 f6 10. Be3 O-O 11. Ne1 Now Black can play to advance his kingside pawns to get an attack. Personally I find this quite unpleasant. After 11...f5 white`s best is to go back with Bg5, but black can try 11...h6 first to get going.

Hope this is some food for thought.. Wink
  

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BladezII
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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #6 - 02/28/06 at 02:54:26
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As it reads, my recomendations as an answer to 1.c4 makes total sense.  I read the following--

"and when confronted with these moves I mostly played the Leningrad Dutch.
But as my Elo is rising (above 2300) I want to play something more solid as I made some bad experiences against strong players with the Leingrad. 
A friend of mine who loves the Leningrad also says that he won't play it against GMs anymore. "

The kind I am recommending for Black is very much like what FD is experienced in.  The dutch pawn structure will make him feel at home but in a much safer, sounder, and still very aggressive environment.  The benefit is that these reversed Grand Prix and the Botvinnik system offer Black much more counterplay than answering 1.c4 with ...c5.

The 1.c4 e5 games lend themselves to more lively play in general than 1.c4 c5, in general, I say.  We know that there may be some lines in 1.c4 c5 which are different, but that does not equal the number available after 1.c4 e5.

Like I said before, 1.Nf3 is different all together since ...e5 is ruled out.

Last, symmetrical english is not a walk in the park for Black to equalize, let alone an  easy task for Black to play for a win.   1.c4 then 1... e5 2... Nc6 offers more chances.

Angry
  

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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #5 - 02/28/06 at 01:44:16
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FightingDragon plays the Benkö and the Accelerated Dragon: that should be the starting point. So transpositions to the Chigorin and the Closed Sicilians with colours reversed do not make much sense imo.
Here are my suggestions: stick to 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 and now g6 (avoids the nasty Nc6 3.Nf3 g6 4.e3 Bg7 5.d4)
A) 3.e3 Bg7 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 (5.d5 is a nice sort of Benoni - nice for Black) o-o 6.Be2 cxd4 7.exd4 d5 8.cxd5 Nxd5 is a nice version of the Panov Variation with g6.
B) 3.g3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nc6 followed by e6 and Nge7 might suit FD better than d6, e5 and Nge7. But it is hard to get winning chances after 5.e3 e6 6.Nge2 Nge7 7.o-o o-o, so here you might prefer a different setup.
C) 3.Nf3 Bg7 4.d4 cxd4 5.Nxd4 Nc6 won't bother FD.
D) 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 is very similar to the Accelerated Dragon.

FD might also be interested in 1.c4 c5 2.Nc3 (2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 e5, g6 or Nc6) Nf6 3.Nf3 d5 or 3.g3 d5!? The latter might have the objection for FD, that he has to face the Accelerated Dragon with colours reversed.

Of course 1.Nf3 is not a problem: c5 2.g3 (2.c4 or 2.e4  Smiley) Nc6 3.Bg2 g6 4.o-o Bg7 followed by e6 and Nge7 will transpose to either the English or the Closed Sicilian.
  

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BladezII
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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #4 - 02/28/06 at 00:02:47
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The english is with 1.c4.  What I recommended for someone who comes from a Dutch background is the set up I mentioned above.

1.Nf3 is not the english.  White may transpose but only if Black allows it.  Against 1.Nf3, if you do not want to play 1...f5 you are going to need another system for Black since 1...e5 is out of the question.
  

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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #3 - 02/27/06 at 22:38:43
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Objectively 1...c5 is in my opinion (having played both 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 myself) a very solid move (particularly if Sicilian transpositions don't worry you), however one doesn't always get the most exciting positions.

1.c4 g5 is in my opinion much better than 1.Nf3 h6, because in a lot of the resulting positions the move c2-c4 turns out to be negative for white (e.g. in a variation like 1.c4 g5 2.d4 h6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 c5 5.d5 Bxc3+, which I find is not bad for black at all), while 1.Nf3 is in a way more "natural" and doesn't impede any of the other white pieces. So I suppose I would argue that g5 systems are not a good universal answer to both 1.c4 and 1.Nf3.

I suppose Bladez does have a point about 1.c4 e5, where the resulting positions can end up being similar to a Leningrad. However once more 1.Nf3 is a bit more difficult in this case, because 1...f5 is currently under a bit of a cloud due to 2.d3, for 1...d6 you have to be willing to play the Pirc after 2.e4 and after 1...g6 a Modern after 2.e4.

But what about 1.Nf3 d5? If white plays queen's gambit style you can get a Chigorin and the other main worry I see is finding a good system against the Reti / Neo-Grünfeld like variations.
  
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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #2 - 02/27/06 at 19:19:35
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I would not recommend that for you.  My reason is that White can easily switch to 1.d4 lines and then... what are you going to do?  Like a Saemisch build up or even a normal build up or white may play a fianchetto but then swith back to d4 and you are out of the repertoire.

If I were you, and if I wanted to build the black position with ...d6  ...f5 and similar dutch feel, then I would play

1.c4  e5
2.Nc3  Nc6
3.g3  g6  or ...f5

That's my opinion.  I know it's a grand prix with colors reversed or a botvinnik system but it is more in accordance with the pawn structure you are so familiar with and it avoids transpositions to 1.d4 openings you might not want to play.

BladezII

Angry
  

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Re: Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
Reply #1 - 02/27/06 at 19:11:46
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How about the systems with g6/d6/e5/f5?

There are many move orders, but for example,

1. c4 g6 2. Nc3 Bg7 3. g3 e5 4. Bg2 d6 5. d3 f5

seems to fit with your Dragon/Dutch background, has scored well for Black, and has been played by Gazza!

I like d6/e5/f5 without a fianchetto too.



  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Black against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3
02/27/06 at 17:16:45
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As black I don't know what to play against 1.c4 or 1.Nf3. This problem exists for me already more than a year, and when confronted with these moves I mostly played the Leningrad Dutch.
But as my Elo is rising (above 2300) I want to play something more solid as I made some bad experiences against strong players with the Leingrad.
A friend of mine who loves the Leningrad also says that he won't play it against GMs anymore.
As I converted from the Chigorin to the Benko Gambit, I thought it could be useful to answer 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 with 1. ... c5.
This even more as I also play the sicilian against 1.e4, I also have an Accelerated Dragon in my repertoire so I won't mind a Maroczy.
Last year I experimented with the Hedgehog but results were unstable.
Lately I tried to play 1.c4 c5 in internet blitz, but the variations I have troubles with is when white doesn't touch his d-pawn and plays 1.c4 c5 2.g3 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.Bg2 Nc6 and now either 5.Nf3, e4, a3,...
I played a setup with e5, Nge7, d6 but my results were clearly worse than with Myers Opening (1.c4 g5)
which I sometimes play for fun.

So now my question: What would you tell an ambitious young player who plays Benko/Dragon and wants a theoretically solid opening against 1.c4 and 1.Nf3 with counterplay for black?
Should I perhaps even consider 1.c4 g5?!/ 1.Nf3 h6?!  ????
I have quite a good blitz score with these surprise weapons!
I also hope for some constructive posts (with analysis please!) in the 1.c4 g5?! thread  Wink
  
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