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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs...... (Read 6867 times)
JEH
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #14 - 05/25/06 at 20:49:03
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I'd not been able to come up with anything to counter this analysis myself. I think Black has too many problems to solve here.

I was always one for the 8. ...Bxb5 line myself because a) I don't want to allow White a forced draw b) I want to keep my dark square Bishop c) I studied the resulting middle game and came up with a plan for Black

It would be nice to have fxe6 as an option, but I've been concentrating my opening studies elsewhere.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Glenn Snow
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #13 - 05/25/06 at 19:58:20
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Quote:
"In my opinion Black actually is in big trouble in the mainlines of the 5...c5 variation, however it is not because of the stuff contained in OFWATA vol 4.", Edward Dearing.  (from another thread here)


I'll bet this is the variation Dearing was alluding too.  Any developments?
  
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BladezII
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #12 - 03/02/06 at 23:51:26
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Well, I think the problem is countering White's set-up and achieving a comfortable position to play as Black.  For example--

20. Bb2 Rg8
21. g3 !  -- using the standard method to displace the Nf5

21...          Kd7  - Black is trying to free his rook
22. h3       Rae8

(Computers seem not to understand the position since Junior and Fritz keep preferring 22... Kc8,  but then... 23. g4  hxg4 24. hxg4 Nh6 25. Kg3 Qd7 26. Re2 Nc7 27. Rae1  and White keeps a solid and undisputed bind)

23. g4      hxg4
24. hxg4  Nh6
25. Kg3 --  Now the Nh6 looks grim and poorly placed

25....        Kc8

26. Re2    Qc6
27. c4      Kb8
28. Rae1 Nc7
29. Nxc7 Qxc7
30. Qd5 Ka8
31. Rh1 Nf5+
32. gxf5 gxf5+
33. Kf2

And here I strongly feel the chances are not equal to win this.  Black does not have active play to counter White's  space and mobility and superior placement.

Angry
  

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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #11 - 03/01/06 at 08:50:03
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What do you guys say about 21. Kg1 Nc7 22. Ng5 Rg8 Bb2 0-0-0? (maybe with Kb8 to follow).

I think white has full compensation for the pawn but I dont see him sweeping Black of the board and think position is rather unclear.

Mohassi
  
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #10 - 02/28/06 at 23:10:31
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What I would be worried about as Black is the following line to counter Black's attempt to wriggle out of his cramped and undeveloped position--

19.Kf2 h5
20.c4 Qc6
21.Kg1 Kd7
22.Bb2 Rhg8
23.a3 Nc7

JEH's idea to get rid of the Ne6


24.Ng5 Raf8  Wow, time to get it out, on move 24 !

25.Rac1 Kc8
26.b4 Kb8
27.b5 Qd7
28.a4 Ng7
29.Re4  Nf5
30.a5 a6
31.b6  Ne8

When

32.Ne6

is  dominating.

Angry
  

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JEH
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #9 - 02/28/06 at 22:13:24
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BladezII wrote on 02/28/06 at 16:20:09:
Mohassi,

How recent is your latest information in this line?  Do you subscribe to chesspublishing.com ?  That line is now is in question due to the following idea for white--

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. e6
fxe6 9. Ng5 Bxb5 10. Nxe6 Bxd4 11. Nxb5 Qa5+ 12. Qd2 Bf2+ 13. Kd1 Ne3+ 14. Ke2
Qxb5+ 15. Kxf2 Ng4+ 16. Kg3 Na6 17. b3 Nh6 18. Re1 Nf5+ 19. Kf2 h5  

(19...   Rg8   20.Qd5 is also looking very good for WHite lately )

20. c4 Qc6 21. Kg1

with Bb2 to follow. Black struggles here.


Angry



In the line here, 21. ...Rg8 22. Bb2 Kd7 23. Rad1 transposes into the Pirc Alert line, with Albert stating that Black can consolidate the extra pawn, so this isn't an improvement over PA!, but a different assessment. I'd start my struggle with say 23. ...Nc7 to get rid of the octopus Knight.
White has compensation for the pawn, but Black isn't busted (yet). It's game on  Cool
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #8 - 02/28/06 at 21:40:08
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Yes, quite a bit more than "compensation" for the pawn, the more I look at it. I tried improving my line with 20. ...Rh7 (20. ...e5?!), but with a sample continuation like 21. h4 Qd5 22. c4 Qxc4 23. Ne6 Rf7 24. Re4! I think that White has a better, easier to play game and Black's coffeehouse style attack is going crash and burn.

Sad
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #7 - 02/28/06 at 21:28:56
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Wow, that is a big improvement over "Pirc Alert"...I guess you could say white has compensation for the pawn...

I'm glad I don't play the pirc anymore! It will be interesting to see what people find for improvements. Am I correct that the basic assessment is that white has better chances if he activates his pieces (b3/Bb2/Re1/Rad1) and improves king safety (Kg3-f2-g1) without giving away too much to black? The problem (it seems to me) is that white's position is very easy to improve, and black's position is not.
  
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #6 - 02/28/06 at 21:20:58
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nope ... 23 Kh3! c3 24 Qxc3 g5 25 g4! and it's getting worse for Black.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #5 - 02/28/06 at 21:17:02
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A long while back I looked at the 8....Bxb5 line where Black has similar problems with a King on d7, but I worked out a plan (in the 12....h5 line) by which Black might solve his opening problems. But here the Bg7 still exists.

However in this line, as well as the monster Knight on e6, the monster Bishop on the a1-h8, and the King stuck in the centre gives many headaches to solve. Since Fritz keeps suggesting Kc8 as the way out, which just blocks the QR in and so intuitively doesn't seem to be part of the best plan, things don't look promising with defensive play.

I've been looking at 16. ...Kd7 17 Re1 h5!? (let's have a crack at White's King, a source of counterplay) 18 b3 c4!? (stop Bb2 for on move and get the Queen over) 19 ... urg, quite a lot of white moves to look at, but maybe say 19. Nd4 Qc5 20. Bb2 e5 21 fe Nxe5 22 Rad1 h4+ is unclear
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #4 - 02/28/06 at 20:17:38
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16... Kd7
17. Re1  Nf6
18. b3  Qb4

(18... Kc8 19. Bb2  Nbd7 20. Kf2  and White keeps the edge here, a bind and chances of opening the Q-side to attack the Black King if he wants, if he does not, the fact that now Black's rook is out of play says a lot since White has a huge space advantage and better placed pieces.  I dont think the chances to win here are equal.)

19. c3  Qb6
20. c4  Qb4
21. Qe3 Nc6
22. Bb2  Rae8
23. Rad1

In both lines White keeps a bind on the position, more space, better placed pieces, and the chances to win this game are not equal.  Black does not have equal chances here to win.  Is this the best Black can do?  There has to be something better to motivate someone to play this line as Black.  I mean, would you play and look forward to this, honestly ?

Is there anything better for Black than this line?

Angry
  

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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #3 - 02/28/06 at 19:38:20
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I went through Pirc Alert! a while back with Fritz running in the background, and made notes in the margin where it suggested alternate evaluations or moves that looked worth following up later. Here I made a note of 16. ...Kd7

The idea is 17. Kxg4 Kxe6 and black has the opposition  Wink

17 Re1 Nf6 18. b3 Nc6 19. Bb2 as in Nataf-Leski 2004 seems better, and Black needs to improve on the loss in this game. Our Silicon friend suggests 18. ...Kc8 and 18. ...Qb4. The Queen exchange attempt seems logical being a pawn up, and Kc8 is planning Nbd7.

So many paths to explore!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #2 - 02/28/06 at 16:20:09
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Mohassi,

How recent is your latest information in this line?  Do you subscribe to chesspublishing.com ?  That line is now is in question due to the following idea for white--

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. e6
fxe6 9. Ng5 Bxb5 10. Nxe6 Bxd4 11. Nxb5 Qa5+ 12. Qd2 Bf2+ 13. Kd1 Ne3+ 14. Ke2
Qxb5+ 15. Kxf2 Ng4+ 16. Kg3 Na6 17. b3 Nh6 18. Re1 Nf5+ 19. Kf2 h5  

(19...   Rg8   20.Qd5 is also looking very good for WHite lately )

20. c4 Qc6 21. Kg1

with Bb2 to follow. Black struggles here.

The austrian attack is perhaps the most popular and the most dangerous for Black and ...c5 is perhaps the most critical reply.  The chances of a pirc player and a player who plays the white side are good, I mean, good chances they will meet this line.  

Angry
  

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Re: The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs..
Reply #1 - 02/28/06 at 10:43:37
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Well in Pirc alert Chernin gives the variation that ˝changed the evaluation of this variation˝. It was discovered by GM Alburt after his game with de Firmian in US championship in 1990.

The variation goes as follows: 1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. e6  fxe6 
9. Ng5 Bxb5 10. Nxe6 Bxd4 11. Nxb5 Qa5+ 12. Qd2 (Chernin considers c3 the best) Bf2+ 13. Kd1 Ne3+ 14. Ke2
Qxb5+ 15. Kxf2 Ng4+ 16. Kg3 Na6!! 17.Kxg4 Qd7 18. Re1 Nc7 19. Qe2 Kf7 20. f5 gxf5+ 21. Kxf5 Rag8 followed by Rg6 -+.

Chernin tried Na6 on de Firmian five years later. Game went as follows: 16...Na6!! 17. Re1 Nh6 18. b3 Nf5+ 19. Kf2 h5 20. Bb2 Rg8 21. Rad1 Kd7 22. c4 and here they agreed to a draw though Chernin thinks it was to soon, since with 22... Qc6 he could consolidate. If 23. Qa5 Rae8 24. b4 cxb4 25. c5 Nh4 wins immediately.

Though there might be some improvements for both sides the variation seems rather good for black. I am just beginning to study the Pirc and I didnt study these variations in depth but if you look at it from the other point, what is the chance of getting this variation on board? I dont think it is a great chance so just look at couple of variations and the most probable thing is that white (if he plays Bb5 variation) will deviate sooner and you will most likely have to find the best moves at board. And even if you loose one of 50 games in which you will get this variation it is not so bad.

Thats my opinion. Furthemore it depends on how strong you and your opponents are. I wouldnt and wont put too much time into this variation, because i think there are other less forced lines for white which are also dangerous for black and are likely to appear more often (Bg5, g3)- I find these two the most discomforting for me.

Looking forward on sharing views on Pirc.

Mohassi
  
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BladezII
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The Pirc Austrian attack-What helps Black vs......
02/28/06 at 07:06:15
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I am interested in this specific line only.  I think this is the acid test for Black in the 5... c5 system.  What line here helps Black to equalize, and at worse case, to draw?

1. e4 d6 2. d4 Nf6 3. Nc3 g6 4. f4 Bg7 5. Nf3 c5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. e5 Ng4 8. e6  fxe6
9. Ng5 Bxb5 10. Nxe6 Bxd4 11. Nxb5 Qa5+ 12. Qd2 Bf2+ 13. Kd1 Ne3+ 14. Ke2
Qxb5+ 15. Kxf2 Ng4+ 16. Kg3

I call upon all Pirc gurus for the White side and for Black's cause.  I think this is going to be a fascinating topic, if not challenging.  Please keep responses relevant to the issue and please provide moves with your comments whenever you can.

BladezII

Angry
  

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