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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba) (Read 16804 times)
Vass
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #33 - 06/30/11 at 22:07:44
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Yeah, it seems like 15.... Re8 is way better than 15.... Bc6.
Anyway, I'll keep diggin'  Wink
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #32 - 06/30/11 at 12:31:19
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Vass wrote on 06/29/11 at 21:19:51:
...And I always like when my opponent misses his turn to move, BPau..  Grin
edit: Even after 15... Re8 I still think that 16. Qe2 not letting b6-b5 and then 17. Ne5 will give white some good chances in the future endgame. 3 to 2 on the queen's side is a thing that a decent Hedgehog player always has to be aware of. And besides, OTB here white can have a very pleasant (and easy) play while black is troubled somehow.. May I say that if I'm the second player I won't enter in this setup if I know that white will play like this - it's a two-result from now on.. And what is more, everything happens almost by force - no deviations here and there.


16. Qe2 Qc6! is the fly in the ointment, and black's play is very easy from then on. White can't play Ne5 so long as the pressure exists on g2, and neither Nh4/Ne1 promise anything. In the mean-time black will just trade everything on the d-file and reach full equality.
  

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Vass
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #31 - 06/29/11 at 21:19:51
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...And I always like when my opponent misses his turn to move, BPau..  Grin
edit: Even after 15... Re8 I still think that 16. Qe2 not letting b6-b5 and then 17. Ne5 will give white some good chances in the future endgame. 3 to 2 on the queen's side is a thing that a decent Hedgehog player always has to be aware of. And besides, OTB here white can have a very pleasant (and easy) play while black is troubled somehow.. May I say that if I'm the second player I won't enter in this setup if I know that white will play like this - it's a two-result from now on.. And what is more, everything happens almost by force - no deviations here and there.
  
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Vass
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #30 - 06/29/11 at 21:16:18
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Nothing special..as far as I know.. Except the fact that b6-b5 is impossible because of 17. Ne5 Nxe5 18. Qxe5 and white has an edge - an endgame is coming closer..and closer..  Wink
edit: This was to huibui
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #29 - 06/29/11 at 21:13:41
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I think black is fine in 15...Re8, he manages to equalize completely eventually if he combines it with an annoying ...Qc6 idea exploiting the pin on the diagonal that white can only break with awkward N moves.

Even aside from continuing with the e5 idea there's a whole 'nother point to this idea that's never really been touched, and gives white a tempo up version of a line Karpov has used before owing to that ...Nc5 move by black.

1. Nf3 Nf6 2. c4 b6 3. Nc3 e6 4. g3 Bb7 5. Bg2 c5 6. 0-0 Be7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 d6 9. Rd1 a6 10. b3 Nbd7 11. e4 Qc8 12. Ba3 Nc5 13. Bb2 0-0 14. Nd2 Qc7 15. Rac1 Rac8 16. b4 Ncd7

which is a full extra tempo over the much more common:

12. Bb2 0-0 13. Nd2 Qc7 14. Rac1 Rac8 15. b4

Notice it's the exact same position but in the former it is white to move.

Who knows whether the extra tempo means much, but it's certainly worth noting.
  

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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #28 - 06/29/11 at 20:50:23
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fling wrote on 06/29/11 at 20:07:44:
I have to have a look at this on a board, but just noticed that I can't find this line in Shipov's books. He gives only 13. e5, with the follow up 13 ...Bxf3, or 13 ...dxe5 14. Qxe5 Ncd7. Without a board I can't really tell the difference right now.


In that line after 13...Bxf3 14.Bxf3 dxe5 15.Qxe5 Ncd7 the bishop on a3 is hanging, therefore White has to go for a funny perpetual by 16.Rxd7. In the line proposed here the bishop has returned to b2, thus White can calmly take back on e5.

What is wrong with 15...Bc6 16.Qf4 Ncd7? Black is threatening ...b5.
  

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fling
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #27 - 06/29/11 at 20:07:44
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I have to have a look at this on a board, but just noticed that I can't find this line in Shipov's books. He gives only 13. e5, with the follow up 13 ...Bxf3, or 13 ...dxe5 14. Qxe5 Ncd7. Without a board I can't really tell the difference right now.
  
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Vass
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #26 - 06/29/11 at 19:49:29
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BPaulsen wrote on 06/29/11 at 15:28:52:
Edit: 15...Re8 is probably the solution.

We'll see, BPau.. We'll see..
I still work on this 'Unpin The Hedgehog'-line as you may guess. ..And all this...for just receiving my stable +=.  Wink
  
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BPaulsen
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #25 - 06/29/11 at 15:28:52
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That line you give is surprisingly annoying for black despite it appearing harmless at first. I've been messing around with it in Houdini for a couple hours, and I'm not totally sure how black is supposed to fully equalize as of right now (using 15...Bc6, or 15...Ra7). One funny thing I noticed is 13. Bb2 Ncd7 (offering to repeat moves) gives white an Uhlmann with Bb2 for free, which is of course awesome.

Very interesting find, and potentially of major importance to the Hedgehog given 11...Qc8 is usually cited as the antidote to white's move order. Who knows whether it's a "solution" to the English Hedgehog, but it most certainly is something I wouldn't fancy the black cause of at the moment. Given I play the Hedgehog with both colors that's a big deal...

Thanks for giving me something to work on. I already had something in the Uhlmann that a correspondence game had inspired me to put work in and looks good (involving Qe3-e2, Rac1, Rfd1, Nd4-c2, prophylactics against ...b5/...d5 can be maintained, white plays f3, and then he's able to develop his play - I might post it later once I've got it fleshed out more, but the game where white put the idea together was great), but it's considerably more complex than this line. Simpler is better when it works.  Smiley

Edit: 15...Re8 is probably the solution.
  

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Vass
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #24 - 06/29/11 at 11:51:17
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From what I read here I've found that there are many good players who can't play with white against the English Hedgehog.
Personally, I've found my own setup as a first player (I'm not pretending to be the pioneer), so I think I can deliver my goods to those who have no way to cope with it..
I'll publish some of my correspondent games (with my own marks) here and await for your questions if any.

1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 b6 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. O-O e6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 d6 9. Rd1 a6 10. b3 Nbd7 11. e4 Qc8! 12. Ba3!? Nc5 13. Bb2! O-O 14. e5 dxe5 15. Qxe5 Bc6 16. Qf4 Rd8 17. Rxd8 Bxd8 18. Rd1 Bc7 19. Qe3 Qe8 20. Ba3 Ng4 21. Qe2 (not finished yet)

1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 b6 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. O-O e6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 d6 9. Rd1 a6 10. b3 Nbd7 11. e4 Qc8! 12. Ba3!? Nc5 13. Bb2! O-O 14. e5 dxe5 15. Qxe5 Bc6 16. Qf4 h6 17. Ne5 Bxg2 18. Kxg2 Qb7 19. Qf3 Qc7 20. Nc6 Rac8 21. Nxe7 Qxe7 22. Ba3 (not finished yet)

1. Nf3 c5 2. c4 Nf6 3. g3 b6 4. Bg2 Bb7 5. O-O e6 6. Nc3 Be7 7. d4 cxd4 8. Qxd4 d6 9. Rd1 a6 10. b3 Nbd7 11. e4 Qc8! 12. Ba3!? Nc5 13. Bb2! O-O 14. e5 dxe5 15. Qxe5 Bc6
16. Qf4 Qb7? 17. b4 Ncd7 18. b5 axb5 19. cxb5 Bd5 20. Nxd5 Nxd5 21. Nd4 Bf6 22. Qd2 h6 23. a4 Rfc8 24. Nf5 Rc7
25. Ne3 Rc5 26. Nxd5 exd5 27. Bxd5 Rxd5 28. Qxd5 Qxd5 29. Rxd5 Bxb2 30. Ra2 Nf6 31. Rd6 Bc3 32. Rxb6 Bd4 33. Rd6 Be5 34. Ra6 Rb8 35. Rc6 Bd4 36. Rac2 (about to finish with a good result for white)

The experienced Hedgehog players will definitely find what I try to achieve as a first player. As for the others, I doubt it! So I can explain them in brief, although I don't pretend I've found the absolute panacea against the English Hedgehog. I'm sure there's no universal pills for it.  Wink
  
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #23 - 05/25/11 at 22:15:35
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I'm looking for a basic introduction to the Hedgehog before splashing on a book on it. Does anyone have the articles by Shipov for kasparovchess.com?
  
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #22 - 07/17/06 at 14:00:29
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Well due to deafening silence it seems that the current crop of chess publishing companies are indeed somewhat of a disgrace - we are treated to a variety of the usual cliche sub standard stuff and anything quality is avoided - maybe the Chess Stars company could take this project up!?  Cool
  
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #21 - 07/12/06 at 14:25:28
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I find it hard to believe that with all the rubbish books being published these days we cannot make room for a good book albeit a bit longer than normal. Come on chess publishers, get a grip, must be someone out there willing to publish some quality stuff...
  
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #20 - 07/12/06 at 12:41:07
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Just another plug for the Shipov book, which I've obtained on the recommendation of Kerdyk. It's easy to order as stated, cheap, decent quality production compared to Russian books of the Soviet era, and very good. My Russian's not all that - rusty A-level - and I'm managing. Sadly I suspect that the publishers are right that the market isn't there. Maybe a spot of samizdat is called for?

And I find by the way that Shipov agrees with me on the Greenfeld game. So hey, it must be good.
  
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Re: Hedgehog Help (beyond Suba)
Reply #19 - 07/12/06 at 10:41:47
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In a recent tounament game I landed in the hedgehog by a disgusting transposition from the QID playing white:
1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 b6 4. a3 Ba6 5. Qc2 Bb7 6. Nc3 c5 7. e4 cxd4 8. Nxd4 d6

I had not the slightest clue what to do and lost horribly. By not playing the English or the Sicilian I've managed to avoid that system until that game.
I see the plans for black in that position, like breaking with d5 or b5. And my opponent only had to make natural moves to beat me.

So I'd greatly appreciate any advice on how to fight the hedgehog. What are white's basic plans, where should his pieces go (I played f3 Be3 Be2 0-0) and how can he cause black some trouble. I never had any reasonable plan in this game. In fact my loss was so horrible that when again facing 1...Nf6 and 2...e6 in the next round I panicked and played the Nimzo for the first time.
  
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