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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C11: Steinitz (Read 7202 times)
good knight(Guest)
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #18 - 04/09/06 at 17:15:28
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@good knight, Have u lookat 10.Ne2 f6(NP/TN)? The further pressure on the center looks like a good counter for Black. I see two(2) moves for White. 11.exf6 and 11.f5 and IMO, with fighting equality. Also, Moro's 9.a3 g5!? still need to be explored for Black.

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Thanks for the suggestion. It looks like a good try. I think I'd still prefer white's space advantage, but that's a matter of opinion. I like the idea of black trying to take advantage of white's lack of development, though. If that and Moro's 9...g5 turn out to be the best moves in the end then that might change the idea of 7...a6 being more positional than 7...cxd4.

I find that relatively early a3 move to be annoying for black in many lines of the french, also notably in some of the classical 4...Be7 lines I've been looking at. And of course, early a3 moves in the advance variation have been mainline theory for quite some time now. But maybe that would encourage black to play more agressively. Who knows what the future will bring.

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MNb
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #17 - 03/22/06 at 01:49:20
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Mohassi may prefer White after 12...b4, but why is it likely, that Black won't know it? I would guess, that a Black player chosing this system is armed to his teeth.

Positions after 7...a6 8.Qd2 b5 9.a3 are unexplored, so it is impossible to draw hard conclusions. The thematic move is Qb6, making a5 and/or b4 possible and hoping for 10.dxc5 Bxc5 11.Bxc5 Nxc5.
After 10.g3 Black's best try seems cxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5.
10.Ne2 and now a5 11.c3 b4 can follow.
10.Be2 cxd4 11.Nxd4 Nxd4 12.Bxd4 Bc5 13.Bxc5 Qxc5 14.Bd3 Torres Sanchez-Monmeneu Chulia, Burjassot Preferente 1996, o-o 15.Ne2 f6 16.Nd4 Qe7 idea 17.exf6 Qxf6 18.c3 e5. Maybe better 10.exf6 Nxf6 17.Nd4 but Re8 18.o-o-o e5 19.fxe5 Rxe5 20.Rhe1 Rxe1 21.Rxe1 Bd7 is not bad for Black.
After 10.Rd1 I propose cxd4 11.Nxd4 Bc5 idea a5 and Ba6.
10.Qf2 can be met with Qa5 and 11...b4 Polzin-Schmittdiel, ÖST 2002.

By intuition I do not like 9...c4 as Black robs himself of counterplay in the centre. 9...cxd4 seems inappropriate to me - why not do a useful move first and see what White plays? Finally 9...Bb7 is not to my taste, as it encourages White to play f4-f5. As I understand Black's strategy, Black prepares castling and prepares activating the bad bishop, but postpones both.
I admit, that it is all a bit shaky. If Black wants to eliminate White's attacking chances, then the Vacuum Cleaner Variation is the way to go, isn't it?

Dom and Castlerock remarked, that the idea of a6 is to prevent the Nb5 sally. 7...cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 Nxd4 (a6 10.o-o-o) 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6 12.Qxb6 Nxb6 12.Nb5 Ke7 and 60% of the games ended in a draw. Results have been considerably worse for Black in 7...a6 8.Qd2 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Bc5 10.o-o-o Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Bxd4 12.Qxd4 Qb6. Here White can avoid the endgame without sacrificing a pawn. In the endgame Black seems to have spend an important tempo for parrying a not too serious threat.
  

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mohassi
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #16 - 03/21/06 at 10:51:09
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What I meant when I wrote that, I think whether black has played a6 or not doesnt make much difference, was that in the variations where black exchanges all the pieces on d4, it doesnt make a difference not in general in Steinitz.
Furthermore I agree with MNb that variation 12.b4 are rather tactical and I prefer white (I dont like the Bd3 variation very much), and it is likely that black wont even know it.

Mohassi
  
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #15 - 03/20/06 at 21:56:35
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The move that worries me is that after 7...a6 8.Qd2 b5 a lot of the top players have been playing 9.a3. Now, what do you do? If black plays b4 then white can take with axb4, which I think tends to frustrate a lot of black's plans. In the Kasparov-Radjabov game (Linares 2003) black played 9...Qb6 but after Kasparov's 10.Ne2 I don't like cxd4 because Nexd4 looks strong to me, and most other moves look rather cramped for black. Radjabov's 10...c4 looks ok to me but the pawn on a3 still looks annoying for black, hindering his plans. Radjabov won that game, but I don't understand how. Perhaps 10...a5 is ok, but at any rate after 7...cxd4 the pawn structure is more set for the game and the plans based on pawn structures seem like they will be more concrete to me.


@good knight, Have u lookat 10.Ne2 f6(NP/TN)? The further pressure on the center looks like a good counter for Black. I see two(2) moves for White. 11.exf6 and 11.f5 and IMO, with fighting equality. Also, Moro's 9.a3 g5!? still need to be explored for Black.

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good knight(Guest)
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #14 - 03/20/06 at 02:25:02
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The move that worries me is that after 7...a6 8.Qd2 b5 a lot of the top players have been playing 9.a3. Now, what do you do? If black plays b4 then white can take with axb4, which I think tends to frustrate a lot of black's plans. In the Kasparov-Radjabov game (Linares 2003) black played 9...Qb6 but after Kasparov's 10.Ne2 I don't like cxd4 because Nexd4 looks strong to me, and most other moves look rather cramped for black. Radjabov's 10...c4 looks ok to me but the pawn on a3 still looks annoying for black, hindering his plans. Radjabov won that game, but I don't understand how. Perhaps 10...a5 is ok, but at any rate after 7...cxd4 the pawn structure is more set for the game and the plans based on pawn structures seem like they will be more concrete to me.
  
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #13 - 03/20/06 at 01:14:21
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"In general though, I think in the lines with 7...a6 both sides tend to castles kingside, tending to lead to more positional games."
Now I respectfully disagree. In the variation 8.Qd2 b5 9.dxc5 Bxc5 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.Qf2 Qb6 or Qe7 Black will continue with b4 and a5. As the centre is closed, White must seek chances with g4 and f5. This can become very tactical.
  

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good knight(Guest)
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #12 - 03/19/06 at 02:39:11
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With regards to Kasparov,G (2805) - Short,N (2655) [C11]
Amsterdam VSB Euwe mem Amsterdam (2), 13.05.1994
I think 15...a5 is just a better move than Short's 15...f6. For one thing, it protects the b4 pawn, and after 16.Bb5 Rb8 17.Bd3 then 17...f6 looks fine to me (as recommended by Watson and Pedersen). After 18.exf6 Qxf6 19.Qxf6, Langheinrich-Shirov Cologne 2003 went 19...Rxf6, but Pedersen and Watson also analyze 19...Nxf6 as leading to equality.


"Firstly I dont think there is too much diference, if black plays a6 or not in these positions and whites plan isnt any different I think."

I respectfully disagree. I think that 7...a6 strongly dissuades white from castling queenside. In fact, I think black castles queenside more often than white does in this variation at the international level. In general though, I think in the lines with 7...a6 both sides tend to castles kingside, tending to lead to more positional games, and in the lines with 7...cxd4 white tends to castle queenside and black kingside and tend to lead to more tactics. An example of the latter that comes to mind is Anand-Morozevich San Luis 2005. A counter-example though is Radjabov's win over Kasparov in Linares 2003 where Radjabov played 7...a6 and won in a tactical struggle. Both sides castled queenside in that encounter. In fact, the complications in that game and some other lines are what turn me off playing 7...a6. The plans in the 7...cxd4 line seem more clear cut to me.
  
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #11 - 03/14/06 at 12:31:34
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I simply overlooked f4 after exchanging the rook.
Thanks for the game.
  
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #10 - 03/13/06 at 19:19:47
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Firstly I dont think there is too much diference, if black plays a6 or not in these positions and whites plan isnt any different I think. Secondly I dont think h4 is meant to be an attacking move, but rather seizes space on king side and most importantly gives white a chance to develop h-rook on third file (I find h4 very logical in this variation).
It certainly is hard to prove any big advantage but I think it is only white who can win in these types of positions and believe white has a small, but importantly long lasting advantage (better knight and if black exchanges the knight the light square bishop ending is certainly preferable for white).
I remember a game from young Leko, before he started playing 4.Bg5 in which he brilliantly demostrates all the pluses in whites position. If I remeber right he played b3 and Kb2 (moving the king closer to the action for the ending) with idea a4 and pressurising blacks queenside pawns. I dont remember who he was playing against but it is a nice positional masterpiece.
I can understand that these positional lines arent everybodys cup of tea, but Steinitz variation is then maybe not the best option for them.

Mohassi
  
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #9 - 03/13/06 at 02:22:14
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Your decision to exchange the rook was wrong. Otherwise you were completely winning. Here is Kasparov - Short with Ftacnik's analysis.



Kasparov,G (2805) - Short,N (2655) [C11]
Amsterdam VSB Euwe mem Amsterdam (2), 13.05.1994
[Knaak]

1.e4 Ftacnik 1...e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 0-0 [9...Bxd4 Ftacnik 10.Bxd4 Nxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6÷] 10.0-0-0 a6 11.h4 Nxd4 12.Bxd4 b5 13.Rh3! × c3 [13.h5 b4 14.Ne2 (14.Na4 Bxd4 15.Qxd4 a5 Nunn,J-Lputian,S/Manila ol/1992/(15...f6!ƒ) ; 14...a5 15.Bxc5 Nxc5 16.Qe3 Qb6 Smirin,A-Lputian,S/Rostov/1993/] 13...b4 [13...Qb6 14.h5 Ra7 15.Rg3 Bxd4 16.Qxd4 Qxd4 17.Rxd4 Nb8 18.Rd2 Nc6 19.Ne2 b4 20.Nd4 Bd7= Tischbierek,R-Zysk,R/BL9293/;
13...Bb7!? 14.h5 b4 15.Na4 Bxd4 16.Qxd4 Qa5 17.b3 Bc6 18.Nb2 Rfc8!= Tischbierek,R-Knaak,R/BL9293/] 14.Na4 Bxd4 15.Qxd4 f6?!N Shorts Neuerung, auf die Kasparow aber präpariert war. Short's Novelty, but Kasparov was prepared for it. [15...Qa5 16.b3 Bb7 17.c3! (17.Rg3 Ftacnik 17...Bc6 18.f5!; 17.Kb1 Bc6 18.c3²) 17...Rfc8 18.Kb2 bxc3+ 19.Rxc3 Rxc3 20.Qxc3 Nijboer,F-Luther,T/Leuwaarden/1992/ 20...Qd8 21.Rc1 Rc8 22.Qb4 Qxh4 23.Qxb7 Qf2+ 24.Ka3 Rxc1 25.Qxd7 g6 26.Bxa6 Ra1² Nijboer;
15...a5 16.Bb5 Rb8 17.Bd3 Qc7 18.h5 Bb7 19.g4 Rfc8 20.Rh2 Qc6 21.b3 Ba6 ²/= Forgarasi,T-Luther,T/Kecskemet/1993/] 16.Qxb4! fxe5 17.Qd6! Qf6 18.f5!! Qh6+ [18...Qxf5 19.Rf3 Qg4 20.Rxf8+ Nxf8 21.Nb6+-] 19.Kb1 Rxf5 [19...Nf6 20.fxe6! Ne4 21.Qxd5 Nd2+ 22.Rxd2! (22.Ka1? Bxe6!-+) 22...Rxf1+ 23.Rd1 Rxd1+ (23...Qxe6?! 24.Qd8+ Rf8 25.Rf3! Qxa2+ 26.Kxa2 Be6+ 27.Qd5+-) 24.Qxd1 Bxe6 25.Nc5+-] 20.Rf3! [20.Be2!? Dieser Zug war in der Heimanalyse mit Makarichev von Kasparov vorbereitet. This  was  the move, that was prepared at home by Kasparov together with his second Makarichev.  20...Qg6 (20...Rf4 21.Rf3! Rxa4? 22.Qc6+-; 20...Kf7 21.Rf3!±) 21.g4 Rf8 22.g5 a5²] 20...Rxf3 [20...Qf6 21.Rxf5! Qxf5 22.Be2 Qf7 23.Bg4 Nf6 24.Nb6+-] 21.gxf3 Qf6 [21...Kf7 Ftacnik 22.Bh3 a5!?²] 22.Bh3 Kf7 [22...Nf8? 23.Nb6 Qxf3 24.Rf1+-] 23.c4! [23.f4!?] 23...dxc4 [23...d4 24.f4 (24.c5± Ftacnik 24...Qe7 25.Qc7 Nf8 26.Qxe5 Qxh4 27.Bg4) 24...exf4 25.Rxd4+-] 24.Nc3! [24.Qc6 Rb8 25.Rxd7+ Bxd7 26.Qxd7+ Kg6²] 24...Qe7 [24...Nf8? 25.Qc6! Rb8 26.Qc7++-] 25.Qc6 Rb8 26.Ne4 Nb6 [26...Kf8 27.Bxe6 Qb4 28.Qd6+ Qxd6 29.Nxd6 Ke7 30.Nxc8+ Kxe6 31.Rd6+ Kf5 32.Ne7+ Kf4 33.Rxd7+- Kasparov;
26...Nf8 Ftacnik 27.Nd6+ Kg8 28.Nxc8 Qb4 29.Qxe6+! Nxe6 (29...Kh8 30.Qxe5+-) 30.Bxe6+ Kf8 31.Rd8#] 27.Ng5+ Kg8 [27...Kf8 Ftacnik 28.Nxh7+ Kg8 29.Ng5 Bb7 30.Bxe6+ Kh8 31.Qd6!±] 28.Qe4 g6 29.Qxe5 Rb7 30.Rd6! c3 [30...Na4 Ftacnik 31.Rxe6+- Rxb2+ 32.Qxb2] 31.Bxe6+ [31.Rxe6!?+- Ftacnik] 31...Bxe6 32.Rxe6 [32.Rxe6 Ftacnik 32...Nc4 33.Qxc3! (33.Rxe7 Rxb2+ 34.Ka1 Nxe5 35.Rxe5 Rh2±) 33...Na3+ 34.Kc1 Qf8 35.Qxa3+-]  1-0

  

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Re: Steinitz
Reply #8 - 03/12/06 at 22:11:19
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Today I played the game why I asked about this variation. I expected to get it today and I was right. And I lost but not because of the opening but because of my endgame technique.


1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 a6 10.0-0-0 Bxd4 11.Bxd4 Nxd4 12.Qxd4 Qb6 13.Qxb6 Nxb6 14.Ne2 f6 15.exf6 gxf6 16.Nc3 0-0 17.f5 e5 18.Nxd5 Nxd5 19.Bc4 Bxf5 20.Bxd5+ Kh8 21.Bxb7 Ra7 22.Bd5 Rc7 23.c4 Bg6 24.b3 f5 25.Be6 Rf6 26.Rd8+ Kg7 27.Rd7+ Rxd7 28.Bxd7 f4 29.c5 Be4 30.Kd2 Rg6 31.Bh3 Bxg2 32.Bxg2 Rxg2+ 33.Kd3 Kf6 34.c6 Ke6 35.Rc1 Rg8 36.c7 Rc8 37.Rc6+ Kd5 38.Rxa6 e4+ 39.Kd2 Rxc7 40.h4 Rg7 41.Ra5+ Kd4 42.Ra4+ Ke5 43.Ra5+ Kf6 44.Ra6+ Kf5 45.Ra5+ Kg4 46.Rg5+ Rxg5 47.hxg5 Kg3 48.b4 f3 0-1


Tom
  
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Re: Steinitz
Reply #7 - 03/11/06 at 20:35:31
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Of course, but this is all besides the topic of 986. I find the Vacuum Cleaner Variation, with or without a6, very unattractive. So as Black I play a6 without cxd4 and as White I would try the gambit 12/13.Qd2.
  

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Re: Steinitz
Reply #6 - 03/11/06 at 17:25:26
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a6 prepares b5 and forbid Nb5 in some lines. I don't think Black has to play cxd4 after a6.

If Black exchanges minor pieces then White can try Kasparov's idea to keep the queens on the board.

7.Be3 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 (9.Nxc6 bxc6 10.Bxc5 Nxc5 11.b4 Dom) Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6

and now White can play 12.Qd2 Kasparov's idea. The gambit of b2 pawn is needed to keep Black king in the center. One game reference is SHirov-Bareev,Wijk aan Zee 2003 and another Grischuk-Zvjaginsez,Mainz 2005 (Watson)

If Black doesn't take the b2-pawn then White has good game: 12...Nc5 13.ooo Bd7 14.Qd4 (14.Be2 Na4) a6 (14...ooo 15.b4 Na4 16.Nxa4 Ba4 - 16..Qxd4? 17.Rxd4 Bxa4 18.b5 - 17.Qxb5 axb6 18.Bd3) 15.h4 ooo (15...oo 16.f5!?) 16.Rh3 Bc6 17.Ne2 Kb8 18.Rc3 Na4 19.Qxb6 Nxb6 Kasparov-Timman,Horgen 1995 (Tiemann) 20.Nd4 Bd7 +=



  

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Re: Steinitz
Reply #5 - 03/11/06 at 04:26:03
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MNb wrote on 03/11/06 at 02:37:22:
I do not know, why a6 should be useful.


I would imagine it is the standard frenchie psyche. Nc3-b5-d6 is dreaded even when it is harmless!  Wink
In the present case there is an added chance to resolve f1 bishop and get on with pressure along d and e/f files.

BTW, I like the description – Vacuum Cleaner Variation.
  

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Re: Steinitz
Reply #4 - 03/11/06 at 02:37:22
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This line reminds me of what we Dutchies call the Vacuum Cleaner Variation: 7.. cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5 9.Qd2 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Bxd4 11.Qxd4 Qb6 12.Qxb6 Nxb6
I do not know, why a6 should be useful.
  

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