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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Uberdeker Defence (Read 49040 times)
gillbod
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #65 - 02/26/20 at 09:42:41
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I love that you are maintaining your interest in your defence and this thread 14 years after you first made it. Impressive!
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdecker Defence
Reply #64 - 02/25/20 at 02:35:21
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An English Opening very briefly transposes to the UD before morphing again into a Tango and from there into a Zurich Nilmzo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KBYwNTywUA
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #63 - 01/08/18 at 15:57:52
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The chessbrahs play the Uberdecker Defence by accident !
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UaXuutDiSE at 28:10
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #62 - 10/14/16 at 13:55:48
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I just came across this series of videos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBOnMfQi0W8&list=PL43662FF9C5696566 on Youtube.
It seems that someone else has analysed some of these lines independantly. The poster chose a rather peculiar move-order, only reaching the positions through this sequence in the Keres Defence 1. d4 e6 ; 2. c4 Bb4+ ; 3. Ktc3 (not a critical move, Both 3. Bd2 and 3. Ktd2 are more testing which makes this m.o. rather irrelevant) 3. ...Ktc6.
He does however still view it as an independant defence, but his name for it is I think even worse than the one I gave it !
The analysis itself doesn't seem to be of a very high standard. For instance in the line 4. e4 Qh4 ; 5. Qd3 f5 ; 6. ef the poster suggests 6. ...Qxd4  and claims that 7. ef is forced. Wheras the simple 7. Nf3 Qxd3 ; 8. Bxd3 gives White a lead in development for not much at all. The correct way to fight for the initiative is of course 6. ....Ktxd4
Also missing are the lines 4. e3 and 4. g3 as well as 4. d5 Kte7 and the critical 4. Ktf3 d6 ; 5. e4 a5 and 5. Qc2 to speak nothing of all the lines without Ktc3 and ...Bb4.

Still, fun to discover this after all this time (I started this thread in 2006 and the videos were posted in 2008).

  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #61 - 04/20/12 at 15:48:17
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On 4 Nbd2 I was favouring 4 ...d5 as well.

As for the 4 Nf3 lines, I think more concrete analysis is needed. After 6 Bd3 e5 7 d5 [u]Nce7[/u] 8 Qc2 Nf6 9 0-0 I'm not necessarily convinced that either 9 ...0-0 or 9 ...Bc5 are bad: these positions are quite complex as I know from playing the Tango, and Black often has surprising resources. I think [u]7 ...Nd4[/u] 8 Nd4 ed 9 a3 Bc5!? merits investigation as well, whatever the final conclusion.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #60 - 04/20/12 at 15:21:27
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Thanks for the input. I haven't analyzed the opening in years, so my memory might be deceiving me. I vaguely recall rejecting 5. e4 e5 for a specific reason but you might be correct in your assessment of the variation I gave and the whole line might not be inferior to 5. ...a5 after all.
5. ...a5 ; 6. Bd3 e5 ; 7. d5 Ktd4 however I truly do mistrust. Surely the pawn can be cornered without much difficulty after sensible development.
Apologies for not coming back with anything concrete. Will have to take a fresh look before I post anything more meaningful
  
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TN
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #59 - 04/20/12 at 14:55:39
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In fact 9...Bc5 looks better than 9...dxc3 - I thought White would be able to round up the d4-pawn with Ne2 and Bc2 or b3 and Bb2 but Black always has ...c5 when he should be fine.

Indeed that's probably Black's best reply, but White can get in b4 and c5 whereas Black's kingside play isn't particularly fast. I'd rather be White but I don't think Tango specialists would be depressed by Black's position.

Against 4.Nbd2 I'm tempted by 4...d6 but perhaps 4...d5 is just a good reply, intending to meet 5.a3 with 5...Bxd2. 4...Nge7 scores full points for originality but looks completely wrong.
  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #58 - 04/20/12 at 14:14:21
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Fascinating stuff -- this thread is really hotting up ...

In the 5 ...a5 /9 ...0-0 line where White wins the Bishop pair, Black could always go 10 ...Bd7 and give up his light-square Blip. Is it so easy for White to find a convincing plan after that?

The line with ...Nd4 and ...dxc3 doesn't look trustworthy to me, but I'm talking off the top of my head if not out of the back of it.

There's always 4 Nbd2, of course ...
  
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #57 - 04/20/12 at 13:52:27
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1.d4 e6 2.c4 Bb4 3.Bd2 a5 4.e4 d5 is completely fine for Black in my opinion but you're probably right about 4.Nc3 being +=.

I don't agree with your variation after 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 Bb4 4.Nc3 d6 5.e4 e5; after 6.d5 Bc3 7.bc3 Ne7 8.c5, Black can play 8...Nf6 9.cd6 (White can play 9.Bd3 first but it doesn't make a real difference) cd6 10.Bd3 Nd7! and with ...b6 and ...Nc5 coming, Black is quite comfortably placed to attack White's e4-pawn and backward c-pawn. Naturally this is somewhat better than Spiller-Orlov, US Open 1991 as there is a knight on f3 rather than a pawn and Black's king's knight is on e7 instead of g6, but the knight can be useful on e7 to prepare ...f5 as well, and I don't think Black should be at all worse. After other moves (e.g. 8.Bd3) White is a tempo up on the Black Knight's Tango (no ...Nf6), but this definitely isn't an advantage since Black can play a quick ...f5 without moving his king's knight first.

Edit: Actually White could play 10.Ba3 since e4 isn't on yet, but after 10...0-0 11.Bd3 Qc7 the evaluation is the same.

That said the 5...a5 variation also looks fine. In your variation 6.Bd3 e5 7.d5 Nce7 8.Qc2 Nf6, the move 9.a3 seems like a wasted tempo to me. Better is 9.0-0, with the idea of 9...Bc5 (9...0-0 10.Na4 followed by a3 wins the bishop pair and should favour White) 10.Na4 Ba7 11.c5 when I think White is slightly better. However this isn't so relevant since 7...Nd4 looks like an improvement, e.g. 8.Nd4 ed4 9.a3 Bc3 10.bc3 dc3 and White's position looks nice but the c3-pawn is a bit annoying. Black should be able to achieve enough counterplay with ...Qf6 and ...Ne7 according to my non-computer assisted mind. 6...Nf6 7.0-0 0-0 8.Na4 doesn't seem to work either, and 6...Qf6 looks more quirky than good.

Given the choice I slightly prefer 5...e5 to keep the option of playing ...a6 or ...a5 in the Tango positions (I find that strong Tango players play ...a6 a bit more often than ...a5 but it depends on the position). But 5...a5 might be objectively just as good.

  

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Michael Ayton
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #56 - 04/20/12 at 13:42:02
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On 6 Bd3 e5 7 d5 I'd been assuming 7 ...Nd4, but I like your (better?) line ...

On 6 Be2 e5 (6 ...Nf6!? -- like it too) 7 d5 both retreats might be playable? -- have you a preference?
  
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #55 - 04/20/12 at 13:08:53
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Right, that's the idea. There's also 6. Be2 Ktf6 hitting the e-pawn and intending 7. Qc2 e5.
In certain lines, the Bishop can be transferred to the a7-g1 diagonal, for example 6. Bd3 e5 ; 7. d5 Ktce7 ; 8. Qc2 Ktf6 ; 9. a3 Bc5.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #54 - 04/20/12 at 12:55:23
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Point taken. And I guess after 5 ...a5! 6 Be2 e5 7 d5 there's no need to give up the KB.
  
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Uberdecker
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #53 - 04/20/12 at 12:41:34
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Well specifically, 4. ...d6 ; 5. e4 e5 ; 6. d5 Bxc3+ ; 7. bc Ktce7 ; 8. c5 is rather undesirable for Black.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #52 - 04/20/12 at 12:28:48
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I guess on 4 ...d6!? 5 e4, 5 ...e5 is possible too but maybe 5 ...a5 is more accurate/cunning?
  
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Re: Uberdeker Defence
Reply #51 - 04/20/12 at 12:00:46
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That's of course an important position, also arising from 3. Ktc3 Bb4 ; 4. Ktf3. I play 4. ...d6, intending 4. Qc2 e5 ; 5. d5 Bxc3+ ; 6. Qxc3 Ktce7 with ...f5 to follow, 4. e4 a5 preparing ...e5 or 4. g3 Ktf6. I suppose some of these lines offer White an edge but hopefully nothing too bothersome.
  
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