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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C00-C19: Those first few steps.... (Read 8699 times)
John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #22 - 03/31/06 at 14:09:17
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Hello,

Well I think Collins has gone a bit barmy with this idea, he gives a long line to about move 30, ignoring lots of possible improvements for black earlier in line along the way.

Starts off 16 ...Nc4 17 Bxc4 dxc4 18 Qg4 Bc6 19 Rh3 then don't remember rest, but Nc3 goes round to F4, and uses Rh3 to hold queen-side together. This is the problem with such "deep" lines, because right near beginning 18... Bc6 is probably not best. 

He also mentions Psakhis idea of 16 Qg4 B*b4 and is not sure who is better, at the end of this line. Had not looked at this much before, because had always played 10...Nh6.

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Keano
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #21 - 03/31/06 at 13:09:58
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OK well lets think - first there is a threat after 16.Ba1!? - the Na5 is now attacked - so presumably 16...Nc4 must be played. Then 17.Nxc4 (17.Bxc4 looks far too dangerous here) ...dxc4 and we must evaluate. Personally I prefer Black as I believe White has overextended his position.
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #20 - 03/29/06 at 14:47:14
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Hello,

Yes, that was my first impression too. Collins said he was analysising the position for some hours before coming up with this, so who knows.

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Keano
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #19 - 03/29/06 at 13:52:13
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16.Ba1!? I have not got a board in front of me but this seems a bit much - putting the bishop into the corner voluntarily  Undecided  The idea is probably to avoid some tricks with Bxb4!? but I cant really believe it can be good.
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #18 - 03/29/06 at 12:51:33
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Hello,

You were right that 12Qc2 was not mentioned.  Most of the analysis is about 12 Rc1, and 15...0.0 were Collins suggests 16Ba1!? which has not been played yet.
         The Uhlmann book is good for ideas too. His idea of playing f6, in the old line, 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3 c4, still looks interesting.


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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #17 - 03/28/06 at 15:33:12
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Hello, 

     The Sveshnikov game and Collins book was from 2004, so might be there, will check out tonight.

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Keano
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #16 - 03/28/06 at 13:49:43
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Yes - having just glanced at that Nakamura game, it looks like a "novelty accident" for White - as I think he meant to play 12.Qc2! on the previous move a la Sveshnikov in fact. Then ...Qxd4 is not an option so 12...Nc4 looks forced, followed by 13.Bxc4 dxc4 and now 14.Nd2 Qc6 15.Nce4 where Radjabov uncorked 15...c3!? and Sveshnikov decided to take the draw by perpetual check with 16.Nd6+ Kd8 17.Nxf7+ Ke8 18.Nd6+ etc.   
That may have been a while back so maybe things have moved on even more since then - I suspect all of this may be new stuff not mentioned in the Collins book as that book was around 2003 or 2004 as I recall
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #15 - 03/28/06 at 11:30:46
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Hello,

Nakamura played against 13Qc2 in link I gave earlier. Am at work at present, at least in theory, so can't give the supporting analyis from Collins book. Not sure if would anyway, because there is too much to type out, but will check out the critical ideas.
         If want computer/database analysis I'm your Huckleberry because I'm a software Engineer. It is the finding of good moves OTB that I have more trouble with. 

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Keano
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #14 - 03/28/06 at 11:00:36
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Interesting! Thats a double-edged line but I dont think Black can complain.

What about 13.Qc2!? just going by memory here but didnt Sveshnikov try that to force the knight to hop into c4 - then there was a game that ended in a quick draw with Radjabov - database experts - help!
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #13 - 03/28/06 at 10:10:33
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Hello,

After 10...Ne7 in Collins book, the focus is on a Grischuk game, 

[Event "Corus"]
[Site "Wijk aan Zee"]
[Date "2003.01.11"]
[Round "12"]
[White "Grischuk,Alexander"]
[Black "Radjabov,Teimour"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C02"]
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Qb6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.a3 Nh6 7.b4 cxd4 8.cxd4 Nf5 
9.Bb2 Bd7 10.g4 Nfe7 11.Nc3 Na5 12.Nd2 Rc8 13.Rc1 Ng6 14.h4 Be7 15.g5 h6 16.gxh6 Rxh6 
17.h5 Nh4 18.Qg4 Nf5 19.Bd3 Bf8 20.Ne2 Nc4 21.Nxc4 dxc4 22.Bxf5 exf5 23.Qg2 a5 24.Bc3 axb4 
25.axb4 Ra8 26.d5 Ra2 27.Kf1 Qa6 28.Re1 Kd8 29.Rh3 f4 30.Rh4 Qa3 31.e6 Rxe2 32.Rxe2 Qxc3 
33.Rh3 Qc1+ 34.Re1 Qd2 35.exd7 Bxb4 36.Ra1 Ra6 37.Qxg7 Bc5 38.Rf3 Rxa1+ 39.Qxa1 Qxd5 40.Qh8+ Kxd7 
41.Rxf4 c3 42.Qxc3 Qh1+ 43.Ke2 Qxh5+ 44.Rf3 b6 45.Qf6 Ke8 46.Qc6+ Ke7 47.Qb7+ Ke8 48.Qe4+ Kf8 
49.Kd3 Bd6 50.Kc2 Qc5+ 51.Kd1 Qh5 52.Qd3 Ke7 53.Qe2+ Kf8 54.Qd3 Ke7 55.Qe4+ Kf8 56.Qc6 Bc5 
57.Kc2 Qh7+ 58.Kd2 Qh5 59.Qa8+ Ke7 60.Qb7+ Kf8 61.Qc8+ Ke7 62.Qc7+ Ke8 63.Qc6+ Kf8 64.Qa8+ Ke7 
65.Rf4 Qg6 66.Re4+ Kd7 67.Qb7+ Kd6 68.Rf4 Ke6 69.Qc6+ Ke5 70.Qc7+ Ke6 71.f3 f5 72.Qc6+ Kf7 
73.Qd5+ Kf6 74.Kd3 Qg5 75.Qe4 Qg6 76.Kc4 Qf7+ 77.Qd5 Qxd5+ 78.Kxd5 Be3 79.Rc4 f4 80.Rc6+ Kf5 
81.Rc8 Kf6 82.Rf8+ Ke7 83.Rf5 Bd2 84.Re5+ Kd7 85.Rh5 Be3 86.Rh7+ Kd8 87.Ke6 Bc5 88.Rd7+ Kc8 
89.Rf7 Be3 90.Kd6 Kb8 91.Kc6 b5 92.Kxb5 Kc8 93.Kc6 Kd8 94.Kd6 Ke8 95.Ke6 Bd2 96.Rc7 Kf8 
97.Kf6 Ke8 98.Re7+ Kd8 99.Re4  1-0

If remember rightly then the apparantly suicidal 15...0.0 is looked at, in Watson one anyway. These two books follow different camps, so useful and quite entertaining to compare. If right then a Shirov v Gurevich 2005 game, is the latest on the subject.

Bye John S
  
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French fan(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #12 - 03/28/06 at 09:48:43
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I think after 10...Ne7 White pushes on the kinside with 11.h4!? then there is a line where Black plays Na5 but I cant remember the exact sequence, in any case White gets good play on the kingside which is why I avoid this whole variation with 5...Bd7
  
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Keano
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #11 - 03/27/06 at 15:52:29
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Quote:
After 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6. a3 Nh6 7. b4  cd4 8 cd4 Nf5 9. Bb2 Bd7, which is one of the most played lines. 10g4 seems to give white an edge after both 10... Nh6 which Watson mostly concentrates on, or 10 ... Ne7 which is the focus of Sam Collins book.


How exactly can White get an edge against 10...Ne7!? What is the recommendation in the Collins book here, or failing that the current wisdom?
  
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Keano
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #10 - 03/27/06 at 08:33:51
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the last time I looked at this line retreating the knight to e7 (instead of h6) and following up with the ...Na5 idea was giving Black reasonable chances - the position is very double-edged, Black must play accurately to avoid the "being squashed" scenario, but White too may find that he has over-extended his position with the optimistic kingside push.

On a side note I also agree that the old fashioned line 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nf3 Qb6 6.a3 c4!? while not exactly the height of fashion is entirely acceptable for Black, leading to a different type of game.
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #9 - 03/22/06 at 14:16:43
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Hello Mnb,

Thanks for info. I tried to follow up Nh6 with Rc8 and Na5 in my own games. When checked out Watson, thought lines he gave implied there was a priority to activate knight with f6, and Nf7. Could be wrong, was quite severely out graded in games, and easier on ego to assume made mix up in opening. Remember in a game from Columbus Open 99, responded to Na4 with BxN, which solved the bad bishop problem, but gave away all the white squares, so rarely a good idea.

    Below is a link to game Nakamura played in Ne7 line, in recent US championship.

http://www.uschesschampionship.com/2006/news/05annotated.htm



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MNb
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Re: Those first few steps....
Reply #8 - 03/20/06 at 01:59:22
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"Both lines are playable for black, but he must play accurately to avoid being squashed."
Regulars readers know, that I don't mind risks, as long as I have my share of play too. Statistics (138 games, 50%) suggest that this is the case. Strange enough, I thought Nh6 combined with Rc8 and Na5 offers best chances for counterplay, like Sigfusson-Sigurjonsson, Reykjavik 2004 (Black can improve on 20...f5?!) and Haba-Dizdar, DEU 1991.
White can prevent this with 10.g4 Nh6 11.h3 Rc8 12.Nbd2 when Black can try either a6 idea Na5 and Bb5 or Be7 13.Bd3 f6 14.exf6 gxf6 15.Qe2 Nf7 16.Rc1 Korbut-Charitonov, Krasnodar,1999, Bd6 17.b5 Ne7 unclear.
But I must admit, that retreating the knight to e7 has several merits; f4 is a tempting square. Relange-Antic, Serbian-ch 1998, is a nice game from Black's point of view. There are several other ones.
So I am not sure at all about White's advantage.
  

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