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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #11 - 08/25/06 at 00:09:33
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1142498517/0#10 date=1156413031] Apologies, I had forgotten your previous post. There you expressed your distaste for Black's raids on -b2. But it must be said that it is White's only weak spot in an otherwise ultra-solid position, and in my opinion, putting it under pressure is Black's best chance of unbalancing the game early on. [/quote]

You might be right here, but I do feel that White is getting decent compensation for the pawn, and more than ordinary precision is required by Black in order to demonstrate otherwise.

Playing h6/g5/d6 is another way to unbalance things, and is probably the one I would prefer.  This is simply a matter of taste.

[quote]But of course, there's nothing wrong with accepting an equal and slightly dry middlegame with the intention of slowly outplaying the opponent. With this idea in mind, you might consider the system based on the moves ...c5/...b6/...Bb7/...Be7/...d6/...Ktbd7 and in some cases ...Rac8/...Rc7/...Qa8 [i]à la[/i] Larsen.[/quote]

This is more what I had in mind, although I'd probably even play d5 if given the chance, since via this move order it is unlikely that White can still transpose favorably into a QGD.

My main objection is:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 c5 4.Nc3 -- White scores miserably from this position, but there doesn't seem to be a good reason why.  I'll have to think some more about it.
  
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #10 - 08/24/06 at 09:50:31
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Dear Scholar,

Apologies, I had forgotten your previous post. There you expressed your distaste for Black's raids on -b2. But it must be said that it is White's only weak spot in an otherwise ultra-solid position, and in my opinion, putting it under pressure is Black's best chance of unbalancing the game early on. But of course, there's nothing wrong with accepting an equal and slightly dry middlegame with the intention of slowly outplaying the opponent. With this idea in mind, you might consider the system based on the moves ...c5/...b6/...Bb7/...Be7/...d6/...Ktbd7 and in some cases ...Rac8/...Rc7/...Qa8 [i]à la[/i] Larsen.

    
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                                                                                                        Hubert
  
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Scholar
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #9 - 08/24/06 at 00:43:20
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1142498517/0#8 date=1156325071]Well, since you can't reach an effective ( e.g. asymetrical) Torre after 1. d4 d5  (2. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 3. Bg5 c6 ; 3. e3 Bf5 is solid and dead equal), and the QG should be in the repertoire of anyone opening with 1. d4 -Eric Prié's ravings to the contrary notwithstanding-, it certainly makes sense to transpose after 1. ...Ktf6 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. Bg5 d5 with 4. c4 and real chances for advantage for once...[/quote]

I'm not sure exactly what you are commenting on...I am coming from the Black side of things and would prefer not to allow White the option of transposing to a QGD.  I thought it was clear from my posts that I consider allowing that something of a concession and believe that Black should have better.

*

Probably 3...c5 is the option which is closest to what I am looking for, since Black then play d5 later with a high likelihood of transposing.  I imagine.  Perhaps most Torre players will indeed prefer to play 4.e4 or 4.Nc3 instead.
  
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #8 - 08/23/06 at 09:24:31
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Well, since you can't reach an effective ( e.g. asymetrical) Torre after 1. d4 d5  (2. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 3. Bg5 c6 ; 3. e3 Bf5 is solid and dead equal), and the QG should be in the repertoire of anyone opening with 1. d4 -Eric Prié's ravings to the contrary notwithstanding-, it certainly makes sense to transpose after 1. ...Ktf6 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. Bg5 d5 with 4. c4 and real chances for advantage for once...
  
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #7 - 08/23/06 at 03:02:42
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FusterCluck wrote on 08/22/06 at 23:50:59:
If you follow the recommendations of Graham Burgess (the Gambit guide to the Torre Attack), you are happily to transpose to the QG if black plays d5.  Torre attack is a natural fit with the QG, postional but with sting if black is over anxious.  His concern about transposing into the QG is perhaps something a lot of Indian defense players want to avoid.


That's very interesting -- I wouldn't have thought that a book on the Torre would get much mileage out of suggesting a transpotion to a QGD.  I'm not so worried about playing such a position, but on principle I don't think I should allow it (though being stubborn may prove to be more trouble than it is worth).
  
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #6 - 08/22/06 at 23:50:59
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If you follow the recommendations of Graham Burgess (the Gambit guide to the Torre Attack), you are happily to transpose to the QG if black plays d5.  Torre attack is a natural fit with the QG, postional but with sting if black is over anxious.  His concern about transposing into the QG is perhaps something a lot of Indian defense players want to avoid.
  
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #5 - 08/19/06 at 22:43:04
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SutterCane wrote on 03/16/06 at 08:41:57:
Hello,

need info from our TORRE fans. I look for a weapon to bring trouble to a TORRE player...its the final game in a championship and i have the black pieces.

My idea is:

1.d4  d5
2.Nf3 Nf6
3.Bg5 Ne4
4.Bf4 e6
5.e3 ...

5...  g5!? with h5 or f6/h5 plans.

I have to win, so I have to be aggressiv...hehe.

Do our experts have material about this sideline with g5 ???

Great to hear from you!!!

SutterCane


Why go for that g5 stuff, isn't  1.d4  d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Ne4 4.Bf4 c5! considered excellent for black?

Tops Smiley

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #4 - 08/19/06 at 01:14:33
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I'm interested in the Torre as black also, and so I thought I'd revive this thread, even though I arise at things via a different move order.

I usually just play a solid set-up: 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.c3 Nbd7 7.Bd3 0-0 or something similar.  In a recent game of mine, White continued with 8.Qc2 c4 9.Be2 b5 10.Ne5 Nxe5 11.dxe5 Nd7 12.Bxe7 Qxe7 13.f4 f6 and was already worse (with 13...Qc5 as a likely improvement for Black).

White's 8th seems like a significant error and after the correct 8.Ne5 Nxe5 9.dxe5 Nd7 Bf4 I am not sure that I am such a fan of Black's position, which invites the kingside attack.



Probably Black should improve his move-order and delay castling:

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bg5 d5 4.e3 c5 5.Nbd2 Be7 6.c3 Nbd7 7.Bd3 b6 8.0-0 Bb7 9.Ne5 Nxe5 10.dxe5 Nd7 11.Bxe7 [ 11.Bf4 g5 seems rather pleasant for Black -- in the spirit of the oft-cited Spassky-Petrosian 1966 game which continued 11...Qc7 12.Nf3 h6 13.b4 g5] 11...Qxe7 12.f4 and now 12...f6 seems a little ugly after 13.Qh5+, and although 12...g5 seems worthy of a closer investigation the main line looks like 12...0-0-0 13.Nf3 f6 and after NCO's suggestion of 14.Bb5 I am inclined to agree with its assessment of a slight advantage to White.



So my first question is whether this should be viewed as an acceptable for Black -- and if so, how should Black continue (or deviate earlier).

A subtle point is that I'd like to be playing 3...c5 first, which seems like it would be Black's more precise move order (preventing White from changing gears and playing 4.c4 with a standard QGD -- though I guess it's unlikely a Torre player would prefer to push the game in that direction) except that 4.Nc3 pushing things toward a Van Geet seems to pose some problems for Black that I haven't resolved yet.  (4.e4 is another option for White, but the main threat of e5 doesn't seem all that strong.)  I don't imagine that there is a way to get play similar to the first line without allowing transposition to the QGD?

Finally: ignoring everything above(!), what do people think Black's best approach to the Torre would be?  The lines with 3...h6 intending a quick d6 and g5 against 4.Bh4 seem like a pretty aggressive and compelling choice.  In the other Torre thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1113287210/, rooksaway18 noted that this particular choice is not very robust in that after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 Black needs to play something else, but I'd rather ignore this potential difficulty for the moment (or at least, use that thread to address it).  This is, however, in the back of my mind, as the first line has the advantage that it can be played against basically any move order of White.

As a practical matter, usually my opponents playing the Torre are somewhat weaker, and so my results are quite good even without my doing anything fancy, and so I am less inclined to play lines which involve excessive risk (i.e., don't expect me to be excited about any lines with Qb6xb2).
  
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #3 - 03/29/06 at 16:16:36
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Dear SutterCane,

  If you're trying to win, don't answer 1. d4 with 1. ...d5
After 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. Bg5 c5 ; 4. e3 Qb6 ; 5. Qc1 Kte4 ; 6. Bf4 Ktc3 ; 7. c3 d6 followed by ...Bd7 and ...Rc8 you should have sufficient chances to unbalance the game.
 
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #2 - 03/28/06 at 20:53:53
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Why not
1.d4  d5
2.Nf3 Nf6
3.Bg5 Ne4
4.Bf4 c5
5.e3 Qb6
6. Qc1,

isn't black already equal?
  
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Re: Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
Reply #1 - 03/16/06 at 23:22:23
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g5 is a great weapon!
  
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SutterCane
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Can i defeat a TORRE player with ...
03/16/06 at 08:41:57
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Hello,

need info from our TORRE fans. I look for a weapon to bring trouble to a TORRE player...its the final game in a championship and i have the black pieces.

My idea is:

1.d4  d5
2.Nf3 Nf6
3.Bg5 Ne4
4.Bf4 e6
5.e3 ...

5...  g5!? with h5 or f6/h5 plans.

I have to win, so I have to be aggressiv...hehe.

Do our experts have material about this sideline with g5 ???

Great to hear from you!!!

SutterCane
  

I recognize terror as the finest emotion in a chessgame and so I will try to terrorize my opponent. But if I find that I cannot terrify, I will try to horrify, and if I find that I cannot horrify ...
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