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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) C11: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6 (Read 19791 times)
dom
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #27 - 07/29/09 at 10:21:37
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No flaming please for this post...I agree, I have not read posts before sanek9385's one  Embarrassed


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@sanek9385:

8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 c4 Vaganian idea

10.b4! Nxb4?! (10...Qc7!) HgMan on chesspub forum

11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Kf2 b5

and now 13.a3!? is best because

13.Nc5 Nxc5 14.dxc5 Bd7! threatening Rc8-Qc7 to take c5 pawn

15.a3 Bc3 16.Rc1 Qxa3 +=

And yes, you are right 14...Bc3?! 15.Rc1 +/-

Point is c5 pawn is no longer under attack and can be kept by c6 + Nd4...better is to wait a3 White move.

Alternative plan for Black is to play 10...Qb5 to achieve a5 or move
c6 knight like in game Nijboer-Benitah,Cappelle La Grande 2006 given
on www.chessgames.com
  

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sanek9385
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #26 - 07/28/09 at 15:54:19
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French Steinitz Variation, with 7. … Qb6

       1.e4            e6
          2.d4            d5
          3.Nc3            Nf6
          4.e5            Nfd7
          5.f4                   c5
          6.Nf3            Nc6
          7.Be3            Qb6
          8.Na4            Qa5+
          9.c3            c4
          10.b4            Nxb4
          11.cxb4      Bxb4+
          12.Kf2            
          12. …            b5
          13.Nc5       Nxc5
          14.dxc5      Bc3
          15.Bd2

RYBKA advises to play 15.Rc1
How to play this case???
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #25 - 06/25/09 at 14:21:38
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Which one is Denis? Is this a translation too? Or a common Russian name?

Gotta love translation software too. Good use of the word 'phalanges'. Tricky to get that in a chess annotation normally.

Thanks for the annotation. Good quality stuff in an interesting line.
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #24 - 06/25/09 at 13:18:29
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http://74.125.91.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http://www.salinnikov.narod...

Denis is an International Master and a very experienced chess coach.
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #23 - 06/21/09 at 18:50:02
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/21/09 at 07:32:12:
I don't have the game directly at hand, but around 1988, there was a classic game, Ljubojevic-M. Gurevich, which saw this pawn structure, and Black did indeed play f6 for a smashing attack.  (He sacked a N for the d+e pawns and open lines. 

You may want to look it up.  (I may have the year wrong, but I don't think I have the players wrong.)


I wonder if you're thinking of their 1991 game at Linares?

schtroumfechecs wrote on 06/14/09 at 16:32:55:
Hgman,

After looking at your original analyses (maybe not too carefully i must admit) i am surprise about your 13...00 after 13.Nb2. In your original analyse, it seems that 13...Ba3 offers black good chances.
Have you a new opinion about 13...Ba3 or did you played 13...00 just to give it a try?


Following on from S_F's post, I wasn't entirely satisfied with Black's play in the notes I first posted (quite a few years ago) after 13.Nb2.  As I mentioned, the standard 13...Bc3, which is cited in most places, is an error.  13...Ba3 isn't terrific, and launching a kingside attack with f7-f6 can help Black out.  I'm not convinced that 13...0-0 is necessarily a big improvement, but I decided that there was no imminent threat that White would advance the a-pawn (which can be uncomfortable), and Black often has trouble finding time to castle in the lines I analyzed.
  

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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #22 - 06/21/09 at 07:32:12
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I don't have the game directly at hand, but around 1988, there was a classic game, Ljubojevic-M. Gurevich, which saw this pawn structure, and Black did indeed play f6 for a smashing attack.  (He sacked a N for the d+e pawns and open lines. 

You may want to look it up.  (I may have the year wrong, but I don't think I have the players wrong.)
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #21 - 06/18/09 at 14:15:34
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I find the positions with the piece sacrifice very fascinating, but I'm wary of doing the real analysis work and adding 7...Qb6 to my Black repertoire because White is scoring so well with the uncommon 8.a3!? protecting b2 by tactical means. Many games lead to those depressing positions where the bad French bishop is the only significant difference between Black and White.

So to all French experts: Why is 8.a3 not a problem?
  

Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone. -Jonathan Rowson
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #20 - 06/14/09 at 16:32:55
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Hgman,

After looking at your original analyses (maybe not too carefully i must admit) i am surprise about your 13...00 after 13.Nb2. In your original analyse, it seems that 13...Ba3 offers black good chances.
Have you a new opinion about 13...Ba3 or did you played 13...00 just to give it a try?
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #19 - 05/17/09 at 02:55:58
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Interesting thought.  It seems as though 14.g3 effectively rules out pushing the f-pawn, because it leaves e6 weak.

At first, I wondered about the immediate 14...f5 as a way of closing the diagonal and protecting the pawn:

A). 15.Bh3 (which I don't think is best anymore) Nb6 16.Qc2 Bd7 17.Rhc1 looks interesting, but I don't think Black is any worse off than in other lines.

B). 15.exf6 (obviously, this just helps Black) Nxf6 16.Bh3 Ne4+ and I'll happily play Black.

C). 15.Qc2 can be unpleasant for Black and probably rules out 14...f5.

Maybe the simple 14...h6 is best: 15.Bh3 Nb6 16.Qc2 Bd7.  White might have better than 15.Bh3 at this point, of course, since the e-pawn isn't as vulnerable.  Nevertheless, attacking the top of the pawn chain on e5 is difficult for Black.

I'll have to look at this some more...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #18 - 05/10/09 at 09:41:10
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After some nice games on a wellknown server I came back to the analysis board to see if this line could be good enough for OTB - but...

1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 e6 3.d4 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Qb6 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 c4 10.b4 Nxb4 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Kf2 b5 13.Nb2 O-O 14.g3 with the idea of 14...f6 15.Bh3 and if Black plays something else White goes for Bh3, Kg2 and takes over

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One move I thought about is 14...Be7 and start queenside action instead of ideas with ...f6 - but somehow I think it will not work
Anyone any idea?
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #17 - 03/17/09 at 02:20:50
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Here's the conclusion to the second game.  I raced into the draw convinced I had a won endgame.   Embarrassed

Note, of course, that due to the transposition, the game is a move behind where it would typically play had it been a standard French:

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 d5 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Qb6 8.Nc3 e6 9.Na4 Qa5+ 10.c3 c4 11.b4 Nxb4 12.cxb4 Bxb4+ 13.Kf2 b5 14.Nc5 Nxc5 15.dxc5 O-O 16.a3 Bc3 17.Rb1 f6 18.exf6 Rxf6 19.Nd4 a6 20.Ne2 d4 21.Bxd4 Bxd4+ 22.Qxd4 Bb7 23.h4 Rf5 24.Qd7 Rf7 25.Qxe6 Qxa3 26.Qe5 Rc8 27.Rh3 Qxc5+ 28.Qxc5 Rxc5 29.Re3 Kf8 30.g3 Rd7 31.Nc3 Bc6 32.Bg2 Rd2+ 33.Re2 Rxe2+ 34.Nxe2 Bxg2 35.Kxg2 c3 36.Nc1 a5 37.Ra1 a4 38.Kf2 Rd5 39.Ra3 c2 40.Rc3 b4 41.Rxc2 Rb5 42.Ke3 b3 43.Rb2 Kf7 44.Kd3 Rb7 45.Kc3 Rc7+ 46.Kd2 Rb7 47.Rb1 b2 48.Na2 a3 49.Nc3 Rb3 50.h5 Rxc3 51.Kxc3 a2 52.Kxb2 axb1=Q+ 53.Kxb1 Ke6 54.Kc2 Kf5 55.Kd3  1/2-1/2
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #16 - 03/15/09 at 10:19:20
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First of all sorry for my false posting in this thread - 13...Bd7 is simply bullshit - I just mixed moves, but the thing is I did not take on c5 and kept a closed position (after Nd7 I did play ...Bd7) and the white attack on the kingside led to nothing - my passed pawns were winning. Anyway the idea is to take on c5 on a convenient moment and perhaps use a tactic with a knight check on e4 - as long as the king is on f2.

I am curious how your game will end - somehow queenside pawns look blocked now and this will certainly favour White (but I had just a quick look and I may be completely wrong). But the story of the game is something to investigate, for sure.

Somehow the question remains if it's better to keep the position closed and try to withstand a kingside attack or to open it as Black.
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #15 - 03/14/09 at 18:10:58
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Matemax wrote on 02/27/09 at 15:00:22:
I gave this idea a try on ICC today. After 13.Nc5 I did not take on c5 but played 13...Bd7 (I am not sure - well looks risky, but who knows - anyway 13...Nc5 may be safer) - the game went on with 14.a3 Ba3 15.Bc1 and now 15...Nc5 16.Ra3 Ne4 17.Kf2 Qb6 and later on I continued with a pawn avalanche on the queenside and went on to win.


I'll have to consider this idea again.  I remember being tempted by 13...Bd7.  The game continues, but here is the current status (a few moves behind where we are in actuality):

1.e4 d6 2.d4 Nf6 3.f3 d5 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Qb6 8.Nc3 e6 9.Na4 Qa5+ 10.c3 c4 11.b4 Nxb4 12.cxb4 Bxb4+ 13.Kf2 b5 14.Nc5 Nxc5 15.dxc5 O-O 16.a3 Bc3 17.Rb1 f6 18.exf6 Rxf6 19.Nd4 a6 20.Ne2 d4 21.Bxd4 Bxd4+ 22.Qxd4 Bb7 23.h4 Rf5 24.Qd7 Rf7 25.Qxe6 Qxa3 26.Qe5 Rc8 27.Rh3 Qxc5+ 28.Qxc5 Rxc5 29.Re3 Kf8 30.g3 Rd7 31.Nc3 Bc6 32.Bg2 Rd2+ 33.Re2 Rxe2+ 34.Nxe2 Bxg2 35.Kxg2 c3 36.Nc1 a5 37.Ra1 a4 38.Kf2 Rd5 39.Ra3 c2 40.Rc3 b4 41.Rxc2 Rb5 42.Ke3 b3 43.Rb2 Kf7 44.Kd3 Rb7 45.Kc3 Rc7+ 46.Kd2 Rb7 47.Rb1 b2
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #14 - 02/27/09 at 15:00:22
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Quote:
'm currently playing a second game in this line; my opponent played 13.Nc5...

I gave this idea a try on ICC today. After 13.Nc5 I did not take on c5 but played 13...Bd7 (I am not sure - well looks risky, but who knows - anyway 13...Nc5 may be safer) - the game went on with 14.a3 Ba3 15.Bc1 and now 15...Nc5 16.Ra3 Ne4 17.Kf2 Qb6 and later on I continued with a pawn avalanche on the queenside and went on to win.
  
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Re: Steinitz with 7 ... Qb6
Reply #13 - 02/25/09 at 00:22:01
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HgMan wrote on 02/24/09 at 16:28:18:
1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 e6 3.d4 Nf6 4.e5 Nfd7 5.f4 c5 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be3 Qb6 8.Na4 Qa5+ 9.c3 c4 10.b4 Nxb4 11.cxb4 Bxb4+ 12.Kf2 b5 13.Nb2 O-O 14.Qc2 f6 15.g3 fxe5 16.dxe5 Bc5 17.Bxc5 Nxc5 18.Bh3 Qa3 19.Rhd1 Ne4+ 20.Kg2 g5 21.Nd4 gxf4 22.Bxe6+ Bxe6 23.Nxe6 fxg3 24.Nxf8 gxh2 25.Nd3 Qxf8 26.Nf2 h1=Q+ 27.Rxh1 Qg7+ 28.Kf1 Ng3+ 29.Kg1 Nf5+ 30.Ng4 Qxg4+ 31.Qg2 Qxg2+ 32.Kxg2 Kf7 33.Rxh7+ Ke6 34.Rd1?? Ne3+ 0-1


I'll need to go over the game carefully.  I think White more or less has to play 16.dxe5, but you're right: it is a serious concession.  I remember thinking that 21.Nd4 was also a problem for White...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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