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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Classical Pirc (Read 8342 times)
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #17 - 04/02/06 at 12:16:13
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JEH is correct, 6...c6 is more complex than 6...Bg4, and the added complexity will increase the mistake potential for both sides.  However, if white knows how to play against 6...c6, he'll do fine...with about the same score as he would get against 6...Bg4.
  
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #16 - 04/01/06 at 10:45:32
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zatoichi wrote on 03/31/06 at 01:35:13:
Call me a hayseed, but isn't the point of 6...Bg4 to contest the dark colored squares? I am not sure this plan will lead to equality.


I don't understand your question. Are you saying you think 6. ...Bg4 is ok for equality, but 6. ...c6 isn't?

The way I see it, Bg4 is trying to get a simple equality which is more likely to fizzle into a draw with best play, whereas c6 is trying to be more provokative to unbalance the game and head for a dynamic equality with more winning chances for both sides.


  

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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #15 - 03/31/06 at 01:35:13
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HgMan wrote on 03/25/06 at 19:20:06:
1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 Be2 0-0 6 0-0 c6 7 a4 Nbd7 8 a5 Qc7 9 Re1 Rb8

1 e4 d6 2 d4 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 4 Be2 Nf6 5 Nc3 0-0 6 0-0 c6 7 a4 Nbd7 8 a5 Qc7 9 Qd3 Rb8


Here are the two lines under discussion.  I think I would be reasonably happy to play either of these with the Black pieces.  White may well have some pull, but Black isn't drowning.  More to the point, Black's plan is fairly clear, which isn't always the case in the Pirc.  I don't mean to suggest that we've "solved" this, however, and would welcome more suggestions on how White might improve...


Call me a hayseed, but isn't the point of 6...Bg4 to contest the dark colored squares? I am not sure this plan will lead to equality.
  
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #14 - 03/25/06 at 19:20:06
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1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 Be2 0-0 6 0-0 c6 7 a4 Nbd7 8 a5 Qc7 9 Re1 Rb8

1 e4 d6 2 d4 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 4 Be2 Nf6 5 Nc3 0-0 6 0-0 c6 7 a4 Nbd7 8 a5 Qc7 9 Qd3 Rb8


Here are the two lines under discussion.  I think I would be reasonably happy to play either of these with the Black pieces.  White may well have some pull, but Black isn't drowning.  More to the point, Black's plan is fairly clear, which isn't always the case in the Pirc.  I don't mean to suggest that we've "solved" this, however, and would welcome more suggestions on how White might improve...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #13 - 03/25/06 at 19:15:10
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Quote:
JEH wrote on 03/21/06 at 19:35:48:
In Gallaghers Starting Out:The Pirc/Modern he concludes after 8 a5 Qc7 9 h3 e5 10 de de "In the past this position has been assessed as favourable to White, but judging by the amount of top players willing to take the black side, this assessment must be at least questionable"

I think this is a good way to assess a variation as these are the players putting in the work to check variations that you don't see in theory!


In my last game against an international master I tried the relative unknown idea 9. Re1.
See:
1. e4, d6 2. d4, Nf6 3. Nc3, g6 4. Nf3, Bg7 5. Be2, 0-0 6. 0-0, c6 7. a4, Nbd7 8. a5, Qc7 9. Re1, e5 10. d5, cd5: 11. ed5:, a6 12. Nd2, b5 13. ab6: Nb6: 14. Nb3, Bb7 15. Ta5 and white has a simple but strong plan with Be3 - Qd2 - Tea1. It is possible that h3 has to be included.

I need to make deeper analysis to see the strength of this plan but a first draft analysis of a half hour shows me good prospects.


1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 Be2 0-0 6 0-0 c6 7 a4 Nbd7 8 a5 Qc7 9 Re1 e5 10 d5

This does look ugly for Black!  But let me draw on the same theme from our other thread; I think 9 ... Rb8 followed by 10 ... b5 might better for Black than the ... e5 strike here.  Thoughts?
  

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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #12 - 03/25/06 at 19:09:02
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Yes, maybe it isn't.  Try 10.Rd1 instead.  Then, if black follows through on his plan, 10...b5 is answered by 11.ab6 ab6 12.Bf4 b5 13.b4.  I prefer white here, but I understand that some people don't mind being cramped because it tempts their opponents into rambunctiously primitive forward lunging, which leaves their home territory fatally exposed.  


Why 11 ... axb6, which hands the a-file to White without much contest?  I think I still prefer 11 ... Nxb6...
  

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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #11 - 03/24/06 at 09:55:34
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JEH wrote on 03/21/06 at 19:35:48:
In Gallaghers Starting Out:The Pirc/Modern he concludes after 8 a5 Qc7 9 h3 e5 10 de de "In the past this position has been assessed as favourable to White, but judging by the amount of top players willing to take the black side, this assessment must be at least questionable"

I think this is a good way to assess a variation as these are the players putting in the work to check variations that you don't see in theory!


In my last game against an international master I tried the relative unknown idea 9. Re1.
See:
1. e4, d6 2. d4, Nf6 3. Nc3, g6 4. Nf3, Bg7 5. Be2, 0-0 6. 0-0, c6 7. a4, Nbd7 8. a5, Qc7 9. Re1, e5 10. d5, cd5: 11. ed5:, a6 12. Nd2, b5 13. ab6: Nb6: 14. Nb3, Bb7 15. Ta5 and white has a simple but strong plan with Be3 - Qd2 - Tea1. It is possible that h3 has to be included.

I need to make deeper analysis to see the strength of this plan but a first draft analysis of a half hour shows me good prospects.
  
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #10 - 03/23/06 at 23:40:40
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Yes, maybe it isn't.  Try 10.Rd1 instead.  Then, if black follows through on his plan, 10...b5 is answered by 11.ab6 ab6 12.Bf4 b5 13.b4.  I prefer white here, but I understand that some people don't mind being cramped because it tempts their opponents into rambunctiously primitive forward lunging, which leaves their home territory fatally exposed.
  
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #9 - 03/22/06 at 02:19:07
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Do you prefer 9 Qd3 because it is more aggressive?

1 e4 d6 2 d4 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 4 Be2 Nf6 5 Nc3 0-0 6 0-0 c6 7 a4 Nbd7 8 a5 Qc7 9 Qd3

Here 9 ... Rb8 with the idea 10 ... b5 looks interesting.

9 Qd3 Rb8 10 Qc4 b5 11 axb6 Nxb6

and now it seems as though Black can develop rather smoothly.  Maybe 10 Qc4 isn't best...
  

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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #8 - 03/21/06 at 23:33:57
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9.h3 is not the best move, so I'm not surprised that Gallagher would disparage it.  It's much too prophylactic.  9.Qd3 is better.
  
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #7 - 03/21/06 at 19:35:48
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In Gallaghers Starting Out:The Pirc/Modern he concludes after 8 a5 Qc7 9 h3 e5 10 de de "In the past this position has been assessed as favourable to White, but judging by the amount of top players willing to take the black side, this assessment must be at least questionable"

I think this is a good way to assess a variation as these are the players putting in the work to check variations that you don't see in theory!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #6 - 03/20/06 at 23:37:40
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I don't know what Norwood's recommendation is, but after 7.a4 Nbd7 8.a5 is the logical next step to cramp black and wait to see what he does before white deploys the c1 bishop.  It may be that e3 is not the optimum location for the bishop.  Cramp black first, make him commit himself to something, and then you'll have a better idea about where the bishop should go.
  
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #5 - 03/20/06 at 20:59:42
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I've just done a quick opening report in Megabase 2006 and I see that current GMs are still happy to play 6. ...c6, including some 2600s. An interesting score was Michel Krasenkow (2606) who scored 11/11 from 1993-2004  Cool I guess his opponents got the idea not to play it against him after that  Smiley

Hmm, I think I'm going to have to add 6. ...c6 into my repetoire with plenty of high rated current games to look at.

  

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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #4 - 03/20/06 at 00:58:00
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You're absolutely right about my preferring a closed and slower game to the fireworks after 6 ... c5.

But after 7 a4 Nbd7 8 Be3, how does Norwood's recommendation fare: 8 ... 9 e5 Ng4 10 Bf4 f6 11 exf6 Ndxf6.

Alternatively, I've been looking at: 8 ... Qc7, which looks interesting and not horrible...

Thoughts?
  

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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #3 - 03/19/06 at 20:43:30
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After 6…c6 7.a4 black has some problems.  Nothing fatal, just unpleasant.  After 6…Bg4 7.h3, it’s just about the same thing.  Black probably does best to play the Pirc like a Dragon:  6…c5 7.Be3 cd4 8.Nxd4 Nc6 etc., but some people don’t like that openess and prefer to maneuver in the trenches with 6…c6
  
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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #2 - 03/19/06 at 10:31:45
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... and the best way to deal with 4. Be3 and 4. Bg5 is to play the Modern move order!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

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Re: Classical Pirc
Reply #1 - 03/19/06 at 10:25:16
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I agree with your conclusion for the Classical. The 6. ...Bg4 line is solid for Black and should score averagely. I was once nearly put off by the arid 9 de de line in this variation where White can kill the game, but from a theoretical point of view this is a good result for Black. In practice, my best score for Black is in this variation.

I'm not aware of any theoretical problems for black in the 6. ...c6 or 6. ...Nc6 lines either, but I don't play them. These are quiet variations, so I'd be very surprised if they were busted.

As for the Austrian, well there's plenty of theory to feed on to keep Black alive, and after surviving decades of abuse I don't see the Pirc killed off by it yet.

As for the 150 attack, I think it's been over hyped. It's just another classical system and should be treated as such, ie have your patient equalising plan ready.

IMO the more likely problem lines for Black are the Chameleon 4. Be3 which retains options of f3, f4 and Nf3 systems if Black commits to the wrong move and 4. Bg5. Also Be3/f3 systems seem to be causing Sicilian players sleepless nights at the moment, which isn't nice for a Sicilian wannabe like the Pirc.
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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Classical Pirc
03/18/06 at 15:37:16
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What is the current status of the Classical Pirc?  It seems to me that much of the talk about the sad demise of the Pirc surrounds the Austrian and 150 Attack lines.  Can anyone comment on the Classical, which it seems one can transpose to from the Modern after an early Nf3.

1 e4 d6 2 d4 g6 3 Nf3 Bg7 4 Be2 Nf6 5 Nc3 0-0 6 0-0

And where does current theory stand here?  I've noticed that Alburt and Chernin recommend 6 ... Bg4, though I must admit that 6 ... c6 appeals to me more.  And after 6 ... c6, what experiences have people had with ... e5 or the queenside front (...Qc7, ... b5, etc.)

I suppose the standard responses to the Pirc apply: Black should be okay, but his winning chances are limited (or are harder to find than White's)...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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