Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) QGD Tartakower (Read 15946 times)
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #25 - 07/12/06 at 21:18:54
Post Tools
Greetings,

I've only got six games in my archive, including the Epishin and Bobras, although his opponent's name is given as A. David.  Huh

The games have only two replies to 14. Ne5:

14. ..., Bxe5; - White won 2 and drew 1
14. ..., dxe5; - White won 1 and drew 2

Sorry, no Black wins.

Kindest regards,

James
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slates
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 507
Location: England
Joined: 01/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #24 - 07/12/06 at 11:41:21
Post Tools
I'm afraid I 'stepped away' from chess and this site for a few months and am only gradually finding time to return to it, so my apologies castlerock for not responding to your question/offer to try to help with looking at this line.  My assistance probably wouldn't yield much anyway - I fear I'm unlikely to be able to produce anything that would help Black much..... in fact, since picking up the pieces again (online only) I've been using the Dutch and QGA so forgive me if I have little to offer on the Tartakower for a while! This thread went pretty quiet anyway, by the looks of things....

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
LeeRoth
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 1511
Joined: 10/22/05
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #23 - 05/14/06 at 20:32:19
Post Tools
The latest seems to be Bobras-Alberto, 14th Monarch Assurance 2005, which continued 14... cxd4 15. exd4 Bxe5 16. dxe5 d4 17. Na4 Qg5 18. Bg4 Qxe5 19. Nxb6 Ra7 20. Rb1 Qd6 21. Na4 Be4 22. Rb2 d3 23. Rd2 Rc7 and was eventually drawn.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #22 - 05/11/06 at 15:59:57
Post Tools
I have not a board in front of me Castlerock and my talent for blindfold chess has diminished over the years, so I´ll look at this line you give whenever I get a chance and get back to you.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #21 - 05/10/06 at 17:46:30
Post Tools
Onr sample line based on the stem games.

13.Ne5 Qd6 14.Ng4 Be7 15.Bf3 Rc8 16.Na4 Rc7 17.Rc1 Nd7 18.Ne5 Nxe5 19.dxe5 Qxe5 20.Nxb6 Rd8  lrads to absolute equality, imo.

  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #20 - 05/10/06 at 05:12:39
Post Tools
At last I managed to look at the critical position after 14.Ne5 for about an hour. I was trying to have conceptual understanding of the position so that I can guide my friend Fridz much better! Hope to do it today. Perhaps Keano and Slates would be interested in helping me? Following are my impressions.

All the games I have given above were decides in white’s favour because of inadequately covered d5 and b6 squares, unsupported b7 Bishop and c-file. Too many problems to handle in one go!

But I think black can be just about fine with 14…Qd6. For example 15.Ng4 Be7 16.Bf3 and the solution needs to include Ra7 to cover b7, Rc8 to cover c file, Nd7 to reinforce b6 and perhaps a4 to avoid Na4 and black should be fine. I’ plan to  analyze concrete lines in this frame work. I would appreciate if someone can give a helping hand. Terribly short of time for chess these days.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fox
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 11
Joined: 02/14/06
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #19 - 04/22/06 at 23:15:57
Post Tools
I played the QGA for some time so I'm familiar with those pawn structures, but I wanted to play the "real" Tartakover line with hanging pawns, just to get a bit closer to chess history (Karpov-Kasparov matches...). Still there are some differencies here with a classical QGA (the main one being the developpement of a bishop on g5 which means that black can hope for exchanges via the Lasker manoeuvre ; black has won the "fight for the tempo" since white is spending two moves to take the c4 pawn...). The position is in fact more reminiscent of the Karpov nimzo indian. <br><br>Moreover, I usually reach the QGD with a subtle move order 1...e6 (avoiding the Tromp for example), then 2...Nf6, and then only 3...d5. It enables to treat sidelines like the Colle or the London system in a more flexible way (without committing a pawn on d5).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #18 - 04/21/06 at 13:00:34
Post Tools
Its just my personal opinion but if you want to play a move like ...dxc4 (there are cases where it can be good) then why not play the QGA. Now to get back on track and in true rant mode - when will we ever get some Tartakower coverage on the site, and has the computer age destroyed our appreciation for the finer points of this great opening?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slates
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 507
Location: England
Joined: 01/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #17 - 04/07/06 at 13:15:37
Post Tools
I don't have the stats to hand, but seem to remember Sadler's view on this was that it is often too committal for Black, although that's obviously a matter of personal opinion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
fox
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 11
Joined: 02/14/06
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #16 - 04/07/06 at 10:09:51
Post Tools
I prefer 8...dxc4 to 8...Bb7, which leads to a pawn structure that I dislike as black. What do you think about this alternative ? Do you have comparative statistics about black's score in both lines ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #15 - 04/07/06 at 04:32:08
Post Tools
Not really. But my one hour with it did not yield anything. Didn’t get time last weekend.

Hard to believe Kramnik would not have analyzed 14.Ne5, when his pet line is 12…a5.
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #14 - 04/06/06 at 10:42:34
Post Tools
well castlerock...did you give up yet  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
French Fan(Guest)
Guest


Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #13 - 04/05/06 at 14:21:58
Post Tools
Yes I agree - Black must look to improve earlier in this line or else suffer a bit
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #12 - 03/30/06 at 15:57:13
Post Tools
good luck! I think I only seriously looked at the line involving ...Bxe5, pushing the d-pawn, with ...Qg5 coming, Vaganian drew that way but I was far from convinced! I assumed if the Knight was left alone (with 14...Qd6 or 14...Re8 as you suggest) then f4 would come from White, which is committal but in that particular position it looked awkward for Black to deal with.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #11 - 03/30/06 at 15:14:03
Post Tools
Keano wrote on 03/30/06 at 13:40:58:
it is unlikely an opening like the Tartakower will be refuted after all...


That's last of worries. My non 1.e4 defense revolves arround Tartakower. When you thought something is very sturdy and when you foolishly think, in fact, you may know something in chess, something like 14.Ne5 crops up and brings you down to earth. You feel ashamed, you didn't even know the move earlier! It's fascinating and at the moment I refuse to believe 14...Qd6 or 14...Re8 (as against the earlier move alternatives you suggest) cannot be a viable alternative and am willing to spend a couple of weekends over it!
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #10 - 03/30/06 at 13:40:58
Post Tools
castlerock the last time I tried I could not make anything work for Black in this line with 14.Ne5 - he is struggling to make a draw as the d-pawn usually drops off eventually.
My advice - investigate something sturdy earlier on like 12...Qd6(which Short and Lputian have both played) or maybe even 12...Re8. That puts a stop to the Ne5 ideas, it is unlikely an opening like the Tartakower will be refuted after all...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #9 - 03/30/06 at 09:00:45
Post Tools
Very true. I hope Shebakov reads this. I renewed in hope this will change. Lets see.

Coming back to the subject on hand, does anyone know of any black winning games with slates’ 14.Ne5? I would appreciate if you guys can get some games posted. Even club games are welcome. It’ll help in suggesting the general direction of analysis for my Fridz and make my Sunday a less miserable one!
  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #8 - 03/30/06 at 08:04:33
Post Tools
Yes I gave up subscribing to the 1.d4 d5 section a long time ago because basically there was no focus whatsoever on the classical QGD Tartakower
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slates
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 507
Location: England
Joined: 01/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #7 - 03/29/06 at 12:44:04
Post Tools
I'll second that - my subscription to Chesspub expired a long time ago, but I haven't missed many Tartakower updates if a glance at the updates info is to be believed....
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Keano
God Member
*****
Offline


Money doesn't talk, it
swears.

Posts: 2891
Location: Toulouse
Joined: 05/25/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #6 - 03/29/06 at 12:22:14
Post Tools
Yes I remember looking at this line a couple of years ago - its a critical line for the Tartakower. I think it might have even been mentioned on the main ChessPublishing site (shock horror a Tartakower getting as look in instead of an a6 Slav, semi-slav or god knows what else).
I´ll have a little rant - Tartakower is one of the main classical chess openings played by all the world champions - can we have a bit of coverage on the main site!!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slates
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 507
Location: England
Joined: 01/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #5 - 03/28/06 at 16:43:47
Post Tools
Sorry about that!  Luckily for me, as I said, at my level I don't have to worry about theory too much (although perversely I still like to) but when I do venture a Tartakower I go for 11...c6 without really being sure why....my QGD books (Lalic, Sadler, Janjgava) all fail to mention (predict?) 14.Ne5!? but Alfonso Romero, in his excellent but quite advanced book says of the move '...the main line here is actually 14.Ne5' whilst he is looking at the well known Topalov-Kramnik game from Linares 1998 featuring 14.Re1.   Anyway, he goes on to examine 14.Ne5 in some detail within his annotations to one of the games you mention, Zviagintsev-Kasimdzhanov, Essen 2002.  He looks at all the games you mention bar the most recent, Epishin-Upton, which featured the move I thought best when I looked at the position, 14...Bxe5.  However, I wasn't satisfied with this and wondered what had happened since - it seems Black hasn't come very far in this line yet.   There is plenty of analysis in his annotations worth looking at if you can get a copy of the book, and I think it would probably be wrong of me to say much more than that here out of respect to the author, other than to reiterate that it doesn't look great for Black.  Not disastrous, but not great.  The final thing I'll note that Romero did say was that after 23...f6?? he thought that 23...Nd7 would have retained some practical chances, but I think all Tartakower players will likely be looking for something rather better than that and at a much earlier stage of the game.....

I'll take a look at 14...Re8, thanks for that suggestion.  It wasn't mentioned by Romero.  Oh, and by the way - the chapter in which he looks at the Tartakower and this game is entitled 'The Dead Bishop'.  Ouch!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #4 - 03/28/06 at 15:42:06
Post Tools
Some more black losses.

Epishin,V (2633) - Upton,T (2285) [D58]
Gibraltar Masters Catalan Bay (2), 28.01.2004

1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.cxd5 exd5 11.b4 c6 12.0-0 a5 13.b5 c5 14.Ne5 Bxe5 15.dxe5 d4 16.exd4 cxd4 17.Na4 Qg5 18.Bg4 Qxe5 19.Nxb6 Ra7 20.Rb1 f5 21.Re1 Qf6 22.Qb3+ Kh8 23.Re6 Qf7 24.Be2 Nd7 25.Na4 Be4 26.Bc4 Qh5 27.Re1 Rc7 28.b6 Nc5 29.Qa3 Nxe6 30.bxc7 Qg6 31.f3 1-0

Khalifman,A (2698) - Beliavsky,A (2661) [D58]
FIDE GP Moscow (5.1), 05.06.2002

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.cxd5 exd5 11.b4 c6 12.0-0 a5 13.b5 c5 14.Ne5 Bxe5 15.dxe5 d4 16.exd4 cxd4 17.Na4 Ra7 18.f4 Qd5 19.Rf2 Nd7 20.Rc1 Rc8 21.Rxc8+ Bxc8 22.Qc2 Bb7 23.Bc4 Qe4 24.Qxe4 Bxe4 25.Rd2 Nc5 26.Nxb6 d3 27.Nc8 Rc7 28.Nd6 Ba8 29.b6 Rc6 30.Bd5 Rxd6 31.exd6 Bxd5 32.Rxd3 Be6 33.d7 1-0

Zvjaginsev,V (2645) - Kasimdzhanov,R (2674) [D58]
Julian Borowski-A 4th Essen (1), 16.05.2002

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bg5 Be7 5.Nf3 h6 6.Bh4 0-0 7.e3 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.cxd5 exd5 11.b4 c6 12.0-0 a5 13.b5 c5 14.Ne5 Qc7 15.Ng4 Be7 16.Bf3 Rd8 17.Rc1 Ra7 18.Ne5 Qd6 19.Bg4 Ba8 20.Na4 Rc7 21.Qc2 Bb7 22.f4 c4 23.Nc3 f6 24.Qg6 1-0




  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #3 - 03/28/06 at 15:33:01
Post Tools
slates wrote on 03/28/06 at 08:09:36:
but 11...c6 leads to some difficulties for Black doesn't it?  I seem to remember a line given in Romero's book Creative Chess Strategy where he seemed to claim an edge for White after 12. 0-0 a5 13.b5 c5 14.Ne5!? - I don't have the book to hand but I think this was the line that seemed problematic in the author’s opinion - does this still represent a challenge to Tartakower players?


Interesting. Thanks for bringing up. None of the book sources I have, has reference to 14.Ne5!? I dug up a bit more and earliest I could get was Onischuck's Aeroflot 2002 win!

Onischuk,A (2655) - Rychagov,A (2544) [D58]
Moscow Aeroflot op Moscow (8), 09.02.2002

1.c4 e6 2.Nc3 d5 3.d4 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7 5.e3 0-0 6.Nf3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.cxd5 exd5 11.b4 c6 12.0-0 a5 13.b5 c5 14.Ne5 Qc7 15.Ng4 Be7 16.Bf3 Rd8 17.Rc1 c4 18.Ne5 Bb4 19.Nxd5 Bxd5 20.Bxd5 Rxd5 21.Rxc4 Qd8 22.Qf3 Rxe5 23.Qxa8 Re8 24.Rfc1 Ba3 25.R1c2 Qd7 26.g3 Qxb5 27.Rc8 Bd6 28.Qb7 Rxc8 29.Rxc8+ Kh7 30.Qxf7 Qb1+ 31.Kg2 Qe4+ 32.f3 1-0

There appears to be a problem for black. But 14...Re8 may lead to equality. I can't pretend, I have a solution. I need to work on this position and may be discuss with someone who knows Tartakower. Thanks for bringing this up. No. Come to think of it you s crewed up my weekend. Grin

  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
slates
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 507
Location: England
Joined: 01/27/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #2 - 03/28/06 at 08:09:36
Post Tools
Just a quick question on the Tartakower 'main line' for any afficionados - after reading this thread I was reminded that after 11.b4 it seems that 11...c6 is much more popular than 11...c5,  and yet 11...c5 was used by Kasparov against Karpov many times to gain equality - why is ...c5 so much less popular?  I have read in a couple of books that it's harder for Black to play for a win after ...c5, whereas 11...c6 preserves/enhances this option, but is that really the case or is it simply fashion that makes 11...c6 the more popular move?  I know that Sadler said in his QGD book he felt you had to a strong player to do well with 11...c5, but Lalic and Watson have both said or implied that Black gets equality (albeit 'sterile' equality) rather quickly with 11...c5.  I was just wondering - I rarely have a game follow theory past 11.b4 at my level anyway, in fact most of my Tartakowers seem to feature White playing 8.cxd5 as per the famous Fischer-Spassky game you discuss - but 11...c6 leads to some difficulties for Black doesn't it?  I seem to remember a line given in Romero's book Creative Chess Strategy where he seemed to claim an edge for White after 12. 0-0 a5 13.b5 c5 14.Ne5!? - I don't have the book to hand but I think this was the line that seemed problematic in the author’s opinion - does this still represent a challenge to Tartakower players?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
castlerock
God Member
*****
Offline


Erro Ergo Sum

Posts: 842
Location: Chennai
Joined: 02/24/05
Gender: Male
Re: QGD Tartakower
Reply #1 - 03/28/06 at 02:54:29
Post Tools
Only one game in Fischer - Spassky was Tartakower Defence. It did not involve b4. This is the move order.

1.c4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.d4 Nf6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.cxd5 Nxd5 9.Bxe7 Qxe7 10.Nxd5 exd5 11.Rc1 Be6 12.Qa4 c5 13.Qa3

Later on Kasparov found improvement with 13...Rc8 14.Be2 15.Kf8 and the pin was no longer important. This is perhaps the reason why this line fell out of favour.

In the line you provided, of course, 11.b4 is the main move and logically so. Idea of Bxf6 and surrendering double B is to clamp c5. Black can play c5 directly but black would be just playing for a draw. At lower level technical superiority will decide the issue. 11.0-0 will transpose in most cases after white plays b4. 11.0-0 makes 11...c6 unattractive and probably that's the reason. Kramnik is the numero uno in 11...c6 lines as black and probably he wants to avoid it as white!

If you want to discuss any specific lines, I would be interested.

  

CastleRock
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Joris_Pelemans
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 5
Location: Leuven
Joined: 04/09/05
QGD Tartakower
03/25/06 at 16:01:30
Post Tools
Hello,

I was wondering what could be considered the main line in the Tartakower nowadays. I have the Opening for White according to Kramnik book and it advices to play 11.0-0 (after 1.Nf3 d5 2.d4 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 h6 7.Bh4 b6 8.Be2 Bb7 9.Bxf6 Bxf6 10.cxd5 exd5) without mentioning any alternative. On the net (and I think also in some games in Fischer-Spassky) I seem to find 11.b4 a lot more though. Has there been a serious improvement for black (I must admit that Kramnik-Khalifman, Linares 2000 doesn't seem so convincing to me either, but I do not have an annotated version of this game, so maybe there are improvements??) which made people switch to 11.b4 or is it just fashion? If 11.0-0 is considered as inferior now, where can I find some more info on 11.b4 on the internet? Which games are typical of this variation?

Thanks in advance,

Joris
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo