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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) KG - Fischer Defence (Read 30727 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #14 - 04/26/06 at 13:47:34
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Well, as I said, I'm no expert in these variations so I don't know the reasons to prefer 8.Be3 over 8.h3.  It just looked to me if 8.h3 h5 9.Be3 Bf6 wasn't dangerous for White then being to insert a timely hxg4 was to his benifit (actually, and probably more importantly, would be the weakness created on g5).  Obviously this isn't the whole story but I would like to know how does Black take advantage of the inclusion of h3,...h5?  Btw, I will admit to being a King's Gambit enthusiast!   Grin
  
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #13 - 04/25/06 at 21:23:46
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Thanks for the analysis Glenn and Mark!

I have played this position quite a few times. I think 5.Nc3 gives White better winning prospects than 5.h4 and is easier to play. Only Black can play 5...g4 forcing White to sacrifice a piece. This is not as bad news as might be thought since White can transpose to a line of the Rosentreter gambit with 6.Bxf4 gxf3 7.Qxf3 (i.e. 3.Nf3 g5 4.d4 g4 5.Bxf4 gxf3 6.Qxf3 d6 7.Nc3)

In the lines with ...Bg7 I prefer 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.g3 g4 7.Nh4 f3 8.Be3 over 8.h3.
I have had some games that for obvious reasons are not in the databases. I think 8...Bf6 is critical and can be met by either Burgess' (from 101 Chess Opening Surprises) 9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5. Here Black can annoy us with 10...Bg5!?

So I played 9.Qd2 intending to follow Furhoff (his games are a great source of inspiration in this line)-Eriksson Helsingborg 1991 with 9...Bxh4 10.gxf4 Qxh4+ 11.Bf2 Qh6 12.Qxh6! Nxh6 13.Nd5 with compensation.
Jensen-Ferlito, email Ch League 2002 saw instead 9...Nc6 10.0-0-0 Nge7 11.Qf2 preparing e4-e5 and h2-h3. I eventually lost due to later mistakes.
After the game I analyzed 11.Nd5 as an improvement. E.g. 11...Nxd5 12.exd5 Ne7 13.Bh6 preventing Black from castling and blocking h7-h5. (13.Bc4 might be ok as well) 13...Nxd5 can be met by 14.h3
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #12 - 04/25/06 at 18:52:30
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I'm no expert on these variations like MNb is, but I did have a look at the variation and here's what me and especially Fritz came up with.  (The font I was originally using didn't work on the computer I'm now on so I had to change the figurine notation by hand so hopefully I haven't messed up.)

1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 Bg7 6.g3 g4 7.Nh4 f3 8.h3 h5 9.Be3 Bf6 10.hxg4! hxg4 [10...Bxg4 11.Qd2 Nc6 12.0–0–0 slight advantage to White] 11.Qd2 Bxh4 [11...Rxh4 12.gxh4 Bxh4+ 13.Rxh4 Qxh4+ 14.Qf2 Qxf2+ (14...g3 transposes to the main line 11...Bxh4.) 15.Kxf2 c6 16.Bd3 Ne7 17.Rh1 Be6 18.Rh8+ Kd7 19.d5 cxd5 20.Bb5+ Kc7 21.Re8 Nec6 22.exd5 Bd7 23.Rf8 Ne5 24.Bxd7 Kxd7 25.Bg5±, but you know what they say, "Long variation, wrong variation", so improvements probable.) ] 12.Rxh4 Rxh4 13.gxh4 Qxh4+ [13...g3 14.0–0–0 Qxh4 15.Nd5 Qd8 16.Bg5 f6 17.Bh4 slight advantage to White.] 14.Qf2 g3 [14...Qxf2+ 15.Kxf2 See the transposition to the 11...Rxh4 variation above.] 15.Qxf3 g2+ 16.Kd2 gxf1/Q 17.Rxf1 f5 [17...Qh7 18.Nd5+-] 18.Nd5± 

The main line was given as such because I found it the most satisfying.  Will be interested to know if this analysis holds up.  
  
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MNb
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #11 - 04/25/06 at 06:18:48
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Dear Uberdeker,

the 2.a4 Anti-French is certainly not the KG, but still three remarks can be answered here.

"Could you tell me why you wish to assign me to the dogmatics' doghouse?
So who is being dogmatic ?
I do not consider myself to belong to any particular school of thought."

"the sac must be incorrect" because Your System tells you so, shows you being a dogmatic member of the anti-gambit school. See also your remarks in threads on the Morra Gambit and the BDG, which you dismissed much too easy.

Your remarks on Spielmann/Nimzo show lack of historical knowledge at best; you are just repeating the biases of Nimzo. 1)You obviously have not played through that Rubinstein game yet. 2)You can only maintain Nimzo being praising, if you equal sympathetic to belittling. Nimzo's notes on the game Nimzo-Spielmann, Carlsbad 1929, say it all. 3)Can you explain, what Nimzo's great successes consist of, besides Carlsbad 1929? You mean Nimzo's zero wins against the classical player Capablanca? His bad results against Alekhine? Note, that the primitive attacking player Spielmann beat both twice. 4)Nimzo's dogmatism was not less than Tarrasch'; this explains his failures after Carlsbad 1929.

As the Dutch proverb goes: one fool can state more, than ten wise men can refute. This withheld me from answering your last post until now.
As I don't like quarreling without giving moves, here we go:

I maintain 8...Bf6 9.Nxf3 is unclear. Just to make clear, that once again you underestimate the meaning of dynamic factors, I will give you some sample lines:
a1)10...Nc6 11.o-o-o Be6 (nice trick; 12.d5 does not work) 12.Qh5! Qe7 13.e5. Here 11...Bg5 is an improvement.
a2)10...Nc6 11.Bc4 Be6 12.Bxe6+ fxe6 13.Qh5+ Kd7 14.e5.
b)10...Bg7 (to take the sting out of e4-e5) 11.Bc4 Be6 (Qf6 12.Qg2) 12.Bxe6 fxe6 13.Rf1 (13.e5 Nge7 14.o-o Rf8) Qf6 14.Qh5+ Qg6 15.Qb5+ Nd7 16.Qxb7 Rb8 17.Qxa7 is murky; White gets quite a lot of pawns.
c)10...Be6 11.e5 dxe5 12.Qxb7 exd4 13.Qxa8 dxe3 14.Rd1 Nd7 15.Qxa7.
I do not pretend at all, that this will be the last word.

Matters are not so clear either after 8...Bf6 9.Nf5 Bxf5 10.exf5 d5 11.h3 h5 12.hxg4 hxg4 13.Rxh8 Bxh8 14.Qd2 and 15.o-o-o. You call that passed pawn on f3 a monster. Well, I have learned, that the safety of the king is most important of all. And it is still a long way to castling queenside, isn't it? Eg Nc6 15.o-o-o Qd7 16.Bg5 f6 17.Bf4 o-o-o 18.Nb5.

8...Nc6 9.Qd2 Bf6 10.o-o-o as Bxh4 11.gxh4 Bd7 12.Qf2 intention 13.h3 leaves Black with the question how to finish his development; or Nge7 11.Qf2 Bd7 12.h3 h5 13.Re1. White also has 10.Nd5 Bxh4 11.gxh4 Be6 12.o-o-o Bxd5 (Qd7 13.Nb4!?) 13.exd5 Nce7 14.Bb5+.
Alas for Black it is not so rosy as you insist to think. Let me remind you of your earlier remark about that Shirazi game. You were wrong and that should have teached you a little modesty. Dogmatism and modesty hardly go along though.

No, I will not advocate the Allgaier Gambit proper - I already have explained why I have removed 3.Nf3 from my repertoire. You already have admitted, that Black, to play for a win, must allow White to play an improved version after 3...d6 4.Nc3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 h6 7.Nxf7 Kxf7. Two corr games you might not know:

Terry - Barlow,B [C39]
corr GBR, 1988
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ng5 h6 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Nc3 d6 8.Bc4+ Kg7 9.d4 Be7 10.Bxf4 Bxh4+ 11.g3 Bg5 12.Qd2 Bxf4 13.gxf4 Bd7 14.0-0-0 a5 15.f5 Be8 16.Nd5 Nd7 17.e5 Ra6 18.Nf4 1-0

Doplmayr,F - Tarmak,M [C39]
corr 1995
1.e4 e5 2.f4 exf4 3.Nf3 g5 4.h4 g4 5.Ng5 h6 6.Nxf7 Kxf7 7.Nc3 d6 8.Bc4+ Kg7 9.d4 Be7 10.Bxf4 Bxh4+ 11.g3 Bf6 12.Qd2 Nc6 13.Be3 Bd7 14.0-0-0 Bg5 15.Rdf1 Be8 16.Nd5 Bg6 17.Nf4 Bxf4 18.Rxf4 h5 19.Rhf1 Qe7 20.Qf2 a6 21.e5 Rd8 22.Rf6 Nh6 23.Bg5 Qe8 24.Rxg6+ Qxg6 25.Bf6+ Kh7 26.Bd3 Qxd3 27.cxd3 Rdf8 28.Qf4 Rhg8 29.Qe4+ Rg6 30.Rh1 1-0

Of course I am aware of the game Bosboom-Dautov, Lippstadt 1991. It might be an entertaining exercise for you to find out how White can improve. Hint: distrust backward development, even when it overprotects. Maybe that will cure you of your systematical underestimation of attacking chances, which already happened three times now.

OK, good fellow, show up with some decent analysis, more than 1½ ply deep and a superficial conclusion like "it seems reasonable ....". Then next time I will give you a straightforward refutation of Hanstein Gambit main line 8.g3. It is not in the books and I am quite sure you will like it.

Ch.gr.
  

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Uberdecker
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #10 - 04/17/06 at 10:03:21
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Dear MNb,

  I fully agree with you : the monster on -f3 must be worth at least a piece! Allow me to express my sympathy for your despair at trying to prove compenstion after 9. h3 h5 ; 10. Ktf5. The wounded and cornered KG now lashes out with its false teeth!
Quite apart from the fact that the sac must be incorrect, OTB you will have to decide whether to insert 9. h3 h5 or not. In your previous post, your counterplay came only thanks to the opening of the h-file. Admitedly, you could play h3 later if Black concentrates on standard development.
In that case, even stronger than 8. ...Bf6 may be 8. ...Ktc6 ; 9. Qd2 (any other ideas?) Bf6, when even you, I think, would have to refrain from hacking on -f3.

As regards Spielmann : 
-Thank you for correcting me. He did indeed share 2nd place at Carlsbad with Capablanca.
- And, of course, he never became a "hypermodern player", but just as any other top master intent on success, he was forced to assimilate the hypermodern ideas. The fact that his play was less primitive and "more" positional than in the past must account to a large extent for his success in this tournament.
- Your attack on Nimzo is unfounded. He is very praising of Spielmann ("In conclusion, we must point out that Spielmann played a very good tournament, and fully deserved his outstanding success")
What more do you want!?
- Hypermodern chess had already been played by Louis Paulsen, Wilhelm Steinitz and Xavier Tartakower (cf. Salwe-Tartakower, Carlsbad 1911) among others. But it was Nimzo's unconditional devotion to it and great success with it that forced the chess world to recognise its superiority over classical strategy (Tarrasch's dogmatism)  and primitive sacrificial chess.

                                                                              Regards,
                                                                                    Hubert 
« Last Edit: 04/17/06 at 17:58:42 by Uberdecker »  
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MNb
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #9 - 04/16/06 at 20:30:42
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Have you already looked at 8.Be3 Bf6 9.Nxf3 ? Don't dismiss it too early - f7 remains weak, Bf6 is a bit shaky, castling queenside is a long way to go and White only needs two moves to play e4-e5. I have not got further than the stereotypical "unclear" to me. For this piece sac it is mandatory not to play 8.h3.

Nimzo on Spielmann in the Carlsbad tournament is about the most unreliable source you can think of. Nimzo just sought a cheap revenge for his painful losses against S in Semmering 1926 and Berlin 1928. This influenced to a great extent Nimzo's comments on Nimzo-Spielmann, Carlsbad 1929. That is a pity, as it is one of the best games played between 1918 and 1930.
First of all in the gambit tournaments of 1912 and 1914 S was as successfull defending against them as applying them. Second S was not particularly successfull with the KG. Third S did not end 3rd at Carlsbad, but shared 2nd with Capa, which he defeated. Fourth S played many fine archaic attacking games in Carlsbad, beginning in the first round against Grünfeld - a very non hypermodern Queen's Gambit Accepted. Fifth hypermodern chess did not show up as suddenly as many people think: see Rubinstein-Spielmann, Bad Pistyan 1912.
S revising his playing style from archaic gambit play to hypermodern chess is just nonsense. The important change in Carlsbad was from 1.e4 to 1.d4 - but in general he employed his usual forcing chess. S was just very late recognizing the attacking possibilities of 1.d4 - and yes, that was one of his flaws.
  

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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #8 - 04/16/06 at 15:38:32
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[quote author=MNb link=1144000928/0#7 date=1145133257]So we agree, that 8.Be3 Nge7 and 8.h3 h5 9.Be3 Nge7 give White sufficient compensation or more, I suppose.
[/quote]

Actually, Black has no reason to play ...Ktge7 so early, and 9. ...Bf6 is only one of severall possible improvements (though it certainly looks to be the most critical and promissing). The reason that I recommended following that game is that in the others you gave, Black's play was even more pointless (what can be the good in ...Ktg6?). 
Let's start with 10. Ktf5 Bxf5 ; 11. ef d5!? (perhaps more precise than the simple developping moves 11...Ktc6 and 11...Qd7)

No I haven't read Spielmann. "The True Knight of the Gambit" actually revised his archaïc playing style and decided to employ the revolutionary ideas of the hypermoderns, which clinched him 3rd place in Carlsbad '29 (cf. Nimzo's booklet on this tournament).
« Last Edit: 04/16/06 at 19:44:38 by Uberdecker »  
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MNb
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #7 - 04/15/06 at 20:34:17
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So we agree, that 8.Be3 Nge7 and 8.h3 h5 9.Be3 Nge7 give White sufficient compensation or more, I suppose.
I will take a look on 8...Bf6 and 9...Bf6 the next couple of days.
Have you already studied The art of Sacrifice (Richtig Opfern)?
  

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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #6 - 04/15/06 at 13:55:47
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  Dear MNb,

1. e4?! e5 ; 2. f4?! ef ; 3. Ktf3?! d6! ; 4. d4 g5 ; 5. Ktc3 Bg7 ; 6. g3 g4 ; 7. Kth4 f3 ; 8. h3 h5 ; 9. Be3 Bf6 is, as you have pointed out, absolutely critical. Where is your compensation here?
As I understand nothing of the dynamic element of chess, I would be very grateful if you would enlighten me here...

                                                                                  Regards,
                                                                                        Hubert
                                                           
  
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MNb
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #5 - 04/06/06 at 03:25:58
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Ayayay, an overview by me. 15...d5? 16.Bg5 f6 17.Bf4 Qd7 18.hxg4 hxg4 19.Rxh8+ Bxh8 20.Qh2 o-o-o 21.Qh7 with a big advantage.
Maybe it is time for 3...d6?!  Cheesy
  

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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #4 - 04/06/06 at 01:43:58
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Dear Uberdeker,

No, it was a mistake.
8.Be3 Nge7 9.Qd2 Ng6 etc. is Furhoff-Petran, played in the same tournament.

That passed pawn on f3 will not become a relevant factor for quite a long time, I am afraid. After 13...c6 White has two similar, both promising continuations:
a)14.hxg4 hxg4 15.Nf5 Bxf5 16.Rxh8+ Bxh8 17.exf5 Kd7 (Qc7 or Qd7 18.Bf2) 18.Bg5 f6 19.Bh4 and Black has an ugly bishop on h8.
b)14.Nf5 Bxf5 15.exf5 might be more precise. Qc7 and Qd7 are both answered with 16.hxg4 transposing to a; Kd7 gives White the extra options 16.Ne4 and 16.Bg5 f6 17.Bf4. Finally d5 16.Bg5 f6 17.Bf4 Qd7 18.Nd1! prevents Black from castling. White of course just can play 18.Re6 o-o-o 19.Rhe1 too.
Oversight or underestimating dynamics?  Wink
It does not seem unreasonable to claim full compensation in these lines.

Yours truly,
MNb
« Last Edit: 04/06/06 at 03:28:37 by MNb »  

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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #3 - 04/05/06 at 23:54:11
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Dear MNb,

Thank you for your lines. I had missed the transposition to the Becker, and despite Needtoknow's enthusiasm, that is probably not the place to look for an advantage, although we should note that the 4. b3 variation has been avoided.   
It should also be pointed out that in the 4. Ktc3 line that you had first put forward [4. ...g5 ; 5. h4 g4 ; 6. Ktg5 f6 
(6. ...h6 perhaps, with an improved Allgaier for White. The original form is very poor, so this may well still be good for Black) ; 7. Kth3 gh ; 8. Qh5+ Kd7 ; 9. Qf5+] Black may avoid the repetition with 9. ...Ke7 ; 10. Ktd5+ Kf7 ; 11. Qh5+ Kg7. But with the g-file about to be opened, White might actually have sufficient compensation.

As regards 4. d4 g5 ; 5. Ktc3 Bg7 ; 6. g3 g4 ; 7. Kth4 f3 , whether or not h3 and ...h5 are inserted, I think Black should follow the game Shulman-Kamberi that you quoted. It seems to me that he should then play 13. ...c6 with ...Qd7 or ...Qc7 and ...0-0-0 to follow. White will find it difficult to arrange a d4-d5 push or other breaks. Black is a pawn up, but what a pawn! Protected and ensconced on -f3, it's power can only grow. It doesn't seem unreasonable for me to claim an advantage here.

                                                                           Regards,
                                                                                Hubert Longtoe
                      

P.S. Did you quote two different Furhoff-Sandor games or did you reproduce the names incorrectly?
« Last Edit: 04/06/06 at 00:59:57 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #2 - 04/03/06 at 01:37:11
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Aha, now we are getting somewhere.

@Need to know:
Such strong words have been heard and seen many times before, but don't match the facts. For your information:
the opponents of Spassky never succeeded in winning a single point as Black; he is undefeated in the KG in at least 25 serious tournament games.
In 139 games, with both players having ELO 2500+, White scores about 53%.
What's more remarkable, in 33 games, with both players having ELO 2600+, White scores even 58%.
Now I know all the counterarguments and most of them are more or less valid, but it is clear, that on GM level scoring easy points is out of the question.

@Uberdeker
This thread might become useful for you. See, 4.Nc3 h6 5.d4 g5 immediately leads to the main variation of the Becker Defence: 3...h6 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 d6 and here 6.g3 fxg3 (better than Bg7 7.gxf4 g4 8.Ng1, see eg Berry-Velker, corr 1978) 7.hxg3 is most promising. After Bg7 White has the choice of transposing to an improved version of the Hanstein Gambit with 8.Bc4 and following an more modern plan with 8.Be3, 9.Qd3 and 10.o-o-o.

This same plan follows after 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 (if White wants to avoid the draw, but he pays a price for it) Bg7 6.g3 g4 (better than h6 see above) 7.Nh4 f3 (also interesting Nc6 8.Bb5 f3 9.d5 a6 10.Ba4 Furhoff-Sandor, Budapest 1994; White's play can be improved) and now I will reveal a little secret.
As I do not see, how to play for a win against 3...g5 (4.h4 g4 5.Ne5 Nf6 and 4.Nc3 Nc6 and 5.d4 g4 have been scrutinized to more or less forced draws) I have given up 3.Nf3. Of course Fischer's 3...d6 is as important as 3...g5, so I have studied amongst others Furhoff-Petran, Budapest 1994. My improvement is 7.Nh4 f3 8.h3 h5 9.Be3 Nge7 (9...Bf6 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 is critical) 10.Qd2 Nd7 (after 10...Ng6 11.Nxg6 Black must recapture with the undesirable fxg6) 11.o-o-o Nb6 12.Bd3 Be6 13.Rde1 transposing to Shulman-Kamberi, Stillwater 2001.
I understand, that it is far too much work to check all those KG-threads. I am to lazy to do it myself. If I remember well, it was Semprun (or Craig Evans?), who indicated, that White still can follow the game Furhoff-Sandor: 8.Be3 Nge7 9.Qd2 Ng6 and now not 10.Nxg6 hxg6! but 10.Nf5 Bxf5 11.exf5 Ne7 12.Bg5 f6 13.Bf4 Nxf5 14.o-o-o with decent compensation.

Now I can imagine, that certain players are willing to defend this as Black; why not. But it is too early for them, to claim an advantage.

PS I agree with 3.Nf3 d6 4.d4 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng1 =+.
  

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Re: KG - Fischer Defence
Reply #1 - 04/02/06 at 19:37:29
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2.f4?! violates every opening principle there is.  Fischer's formula is just one of many that are objectively better for black.   The h6 lines are what I used to play.  White has almost no chance.  I say "almost" because the board gets very scrambled and if black does not stay composed, he could lose.  Then again, so couldn't white.  I gave up on 1...e5 because of the Ruy.  If more people would have played 2.f4?! I would still be playing it and picking up the easy points.  That statement about easy points will probably upset the King's Gambiteers, but my results were overwhelmingly in favor of the black side...no losses, 5 or 6 draws, and at least a dozen wins.  I even had a 2400 player try 3.Qf3 against me, and I let him escape with a draw.  He kindly pointed out my win after the game.
  
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KG - Fischer Defence
04/02/06 at 18:02:07
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  The Fischer Defence 1. e4 e5 ; 2. f4 ef ; 3. Ktf3 d6 is perhaps the sternest test of the King's Knight Gambit, and as such it deserves its own thread here.
MNb has claimed equality for White in the lines 4.d4 g5 5.Nc3 and 4.Nc3 g5 5.h4 g4 6.Ng5 f6 7.Nh3 gxh3 8.Qh5+ Kd7 9.Qf5+ Ke8 draw

In the first I would be curious to see what he intends against 5. ...Bg7 and similarly in the second I would like to deviate with 4. ...h6

Comments welcome.
  
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