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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit (Read 12556 times)
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #18 - 09/13/07 at 12:58:16
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ok Markovich..
11.Ba3,g6!? 12.h4,Bg7 13.h5,00 14.Kf1!?,Bd5 15.hg6,fg6 16.Ng5!? or
11.....,Bd5; 12.00,Nc6 13.Re1 with the idea of e6
may be better for white to prepare e6...
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #17 - 09/13/07 at 10:05:39
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As 15... e6 after 
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.e4 b5 6.e5 Nd5 7.a4 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Qd5 9.g3 Bb7 10.Bg2 Qd7 11.e6 Qxe6+ 12.Be3 Qc8! 13.0–0 Nd7! 14.d5 Nf6! 15.Ne5
seems to be refuted I looked for alternatives: 15...g6 seems to be playable. I could bot find a way to an advantage for White. Any opinions?
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #16 - 09/10/07 at 13:25:14
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Fullboat, if you look back, you'll see that this thread is devoted to analysis, not opinion. So why not contribute some chess specifics to back up your point of view?  Can you refute Ptero's idea, for example?
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #15 - 09/10/07 at 09:57:58
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sorry..but 11.Ba3 may be better then 11.e6...
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #14 - 09/08/07 at 13:19:37
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I've had a look at Rizzitano's suggestion 12... Bd5 (after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.e4 b5 6.e5 Nd5 7.a4 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Qd5 9.g3 Bb7 10.Bg2 Qd7 11.e6 Qxe6+ 12.Be3), but I was unable to find an convincing move afterr simple 13. 0-0. Any ideas waht Rizzitano had in mind?

  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #13 - 04/13/06 at 18:01:48
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Ptero wrote on 04/11/06 at 16:43:25:
My two cents for this variation:

After:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.e4 b5 6.e5 Nd5 7.a4 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Qd5 9.g3 Bb7 10.Bg2 Qd7 11.e6 Qxe6+ 12.Be3 Qc8 13.0–0 Nd7 14.d5 Nf6 15.Ne5 e6 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Bg5 Bxg2 18.Bxf6 h5 

Now white can play: 19.Bg5 because if  19...Bf1?? 20.Qf3 is mate
If 19...Bd6 20.Ng6 Bf1 21.Nh8 seems promising for White




Yes, 19...Bxf1? 20. Qf3 is quite nice.

At first I thought that 19...Bd6 (apparently forced) 20. Ng6 Bxf1 21. Nxh8 Kd7 looked O.K. for Black.  But then comes 22. Nf7 Bd3 (forced) 23. Qf3 c6 (again forced)  24. Nd8! with quite a bit of play for White. 

Black also has 21...Bd3?!  But then there is 22. Qxh5+! (I couldn't find much for White after 22. Qf3 Bf5  23. axb5 Kf8!)  22...Kd7  23. Qf7+!  (23. axb5 is not so good because of 23...Qf8! -- but not 23...Qxh8?  24. Qf3 and White wins)  23...Kd7  24. Qf3+ followed by 25. Nf7 and White appears to have a winning attack.

Wow.
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #12 - 04/12/06 at 20:05:58
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Ptero wrote on 04/11/06 at 16:43:25:
My two cents for this variation:

After:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.e4 b5 6.e5 Nd5 7.a4 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Qd5 9.g3 Bb7 10.Bg2 Qd7 11.e6 Qxe6+ 12.Be3 Qc8 13.0–0 Nd7 14.d5 Nf6 15.Ne5 e6 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Bg5 Bxg2 18.Bxf6 h5 

Now white can play: 19.Bg5 because if  19...Bf1?? 20.Qf3 is mate
If 19...Bd6 20.Ng6 Bf1 21.Nh8 seems promising for White

BTW, a rapid game from today on ICC in which I used this variation:

[Event "ICC 15 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2006.04.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ptero"]
[Black "michaelmyers"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D24"]
[WhiteElo "2382"]
[BlackElo "2389"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 a6 5. e4 b5 6. e5 Nd5 7. a4 Nxc3 8. bxc3
Qd5 9. g3 Bb7 10. Bg2 Qd7 11. e6 Qxe6+ 12. Be3 Qc8 13. O-O Nd7 14. d5 Nf6 15.
Ne5 e6 16. dxe6 fxe6 17. Bg5 Bd6 18. Bxf6 O-O 19. Bxb7 Qxb7 20. Bxg7 Kxg7 21.
Qg4+ Kh8 22. Qxe6 Qc8 23. Nf7+ Kg7 24. Qxc8 Rfxc8 25. Nxd6 cxd6 26. Rfd1 b4 27.
cxb4 Rc6 28. Rd5 Kf6 29. Rad1 Ke6 30. b5 axb5 31. axb5 Rb6 32. f4 Rc8 33. f5+
Ke7 34. g4 c3 35. Rc1 Rc4 36. h3 Rb7 37. Rd3 Rxb5 38. Rdxc3 Re4 39. Kg2 Kf6 40.
Kf3 Reb4 41. Re1 Re5 42. Rxe5 Kxe5 43. Re3+ Kd4 44. f6 Rb8 45. g5 d5 46. Re7
Rh8 47. Kf4 Kd3 48. Kf5 d4 49. f7 Rf8 50. Kf6 Kc2 51. Re8 Rxf7+ 52. Kxf7 {
Black resigns} 1-0

Beliavsky’s 24.Qd5 is probably stronger than my 24th move though White maintains an advantage with both. The endgame may be holdable in a longer time control but it’s no fun for Black. 
Bottom line: I like the second pawn sacrifice (11.e6!?) and will continue to play it


Thanks for sharing that interesting idea; I'll look at it.  And if you're playing at 2389 on ICC, I salute you.
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #11 - 04/11/06 at 19:30:09
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Naturally I was referring to the game:

[Event "It"]
[Site "Linares (Spain)"]
[Date "1995"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Beliavsky Alexander G (SLO)"]
[Black "Illescas Cordoba Miguel (ESP)"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[Eco "D24"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 d5 3.c4 dxc4 4.Nc3 a6 5.e4 b5 6.e5 Nd5 7.a4 Nxc3
8.bxc3 Qd5 9.g3 Bb7 10.Bg2 Qd7 11.e6 Qxe6+ 12.Be3 Qc8 13.d5 Nd7
14.O-O Nf6 15.Ne5 e6 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Bg5 Bd6 18.Bxf6 O-O 19.Bxg7
Kxg7 20.Qg4+ Kh8 21.Bxb7 Qxb7 22.Qxe6 Qc8 23.Qd5 Qf5 24.Rae1
Rad8 25.axb5 axb5 26.f4 Bxe5 27.Qxe5+ Qxe5 28.Rxe5 c6 29.Re6
Rd3 30.Rc1 Ra8 31.f5 Ra2 32.f6 Kg8 33.Rf1 Kf7 34.Re7+ Kf8 35.Rxh7
Rdd2 36.Rh8+ Kf7 37.Rh7+ Kg6 38.Rh4 Rg2+ 39.Kh1 Rgf2 40.Rxf2
Rxf2 41.Kg1 Rxf6 42.Kg2 Rd6 43.Rg4+ Kf5 44.Rf4+ Ke5 45.h4 c5
46.h5 Rh6 47.Rh4 Kf6 48.Kf3 Kg5 49.Ke4 b4 50.Kd5 Rxh5 1/2-1/2
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #10 - 04/11/06 at 16:43:25
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My two cents for this variation:

After:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 5.e4 b5 6.e5 Nd5 7.a4 Nxc3 8.bxc3 Qd5 9.g3 Bb7 10.Bg2 Qd7 11.e6 Qxe6+ 12.Be3 Qc8 13.0–0 Nd7 14.d5 Nf6 15.Ne5 e6 16.dxe6 fxe6 17.Bg5 Bxg2 18.Bxf6 h5 

Now white can play: 19.Bg5 because if  19...Bf1?? 20.Qf3 is mate
If 19...Bd6 20.Ng6 Bf1 21.Nh8 seems promising for White

BTW, a rapid game from today on ICC in which I used this variation:

[Event "ICC 15 0"]
[Site "Internet Chess Club"]
[Date "2006.04.11"]
[Round "?"]
[White "Ptero"]
[Black "michaelmyers"]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "D24"]
[WhiteElo "2382"]
[BlackElo "2389"]
[EventDate "2006.??.??"]

1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 a6 5. e4 b5 6. e5 Nd5 7. a4 Nxc3 8. bxc3
Qd5 9. g3 Bb7 10. Bg2 Qd7 11. e6 Qxe6+ 12. Be3 Qc8 13. O-O Nd7 14. d5 Nf6 15.
Ne5 e6 16. dxe6 fxe6 17. Bg5 Bd6 18. Bxf6 O-O 19. Bxb7 Qxb7 20. Bxg7 Kxg7 21.
Qg4+ Kh8 22. Qxe6 Qc8 23. Nf7+ Kg7 24. Qxc8 Rfxc8 25. Nxd6 cxd6 26. Rfd1 b4 27.
cxb4 Rc6 28. Rd5 Kf6 29. Rad1 Ke6 30. b5 axb5 31. axb5 Rb6 32. f4 Rc8 33. f5+
Ke7 34. g4 c3 35. Rc1 Rc4 36. h3 Rb7 37. Rd3 Rxb5 38. Rdxc3 Re4 39. Kg2 Kf6 40.
Kf3 Reb4 41. Re1 Re5 42. Rxe5 Kxe5 43. Re3+ Kd4 44. f6 Rb8 45. g5 d5 46. Re7
Rh8 47. Kf4 Kd3 48. Kf5 d4 49. f7 Rf8 50. Kf6 Kc2 51. Re8 Rxf7+ 52. Kxf7 {
Black resigns} 1-0

Beliavsky’s 24.Qd5 is probably stronger than my 24th move though White maintains an advantage with both. The endgame may be holdable in a longer time control but it’s no fun for Black. 
Bottom line: I like the second pawn sacrifice (11.e6!?) and will continue to play it
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #9 - 04/05/06 at 08:19:19
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Hello,

Thanks for looking at it. When looking at by myself was trying to hold the position after 28. Nf7 Qa1+ 29 Kg2 Q*p?, over looking a forced mate, just to show how off the mark I was before computer's help.
          Will look into more about 7Bb3 b5 lines, certainly the most natural way for black to play. At the moment go into IQP positions with 7Bb3 Nc6, but these are not very easy for black.

Bye John S
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #8 - 04/05/06 at 01:26:43
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Quote:
Hello Mark,

The highly silicon assisted idea, looking at last night was

27...Kd5  28. Nf7 (Ng6) Ke4!?  29. Qe5+ Kd3  31. Qd4+ Kc2 32. NxR Qd5. 
When if white goes into the peice up ending with 33 Q*Q, he finds he is probably losing. White has lots of ways to get a draw, but have not seen a way to crack this miracle defence yet. 
     What I meant to say was my preferred defence was 7... e6 8 pxp nb6, 7 ...nb6 was accidental TN.
   The Rizzitano book is a lot better than orginally thought, packed full with new analysis.

Bye John S



Well, I've looked at that, and it appears to be a fully adequate defense.  Nice find!
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #7 - 04/04/06 at 14:21:39
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Quote:
Hello Mark,

The highly silicon assisted idea, looking at last night was

27...Kd5  28. Nf7 (Ng6) Ke4!?  29. Qe5+ Kd3  31. Qd4+ Kc2 32. NxR Qd5. 
When if white goes into the peice up ending with 33 Q*Q, he finds he is probably losing. White has lots of ways to get a draw, but have not seen a way to crack this miracle defence yet. 
     What I meant to say was my preferred defence was 7... e6 8 pxp nb6, 7 ...nb6 was accidental TN.
   The Rizzitano book is a lot better than orginally thought, packed full with new analysis.

Bye John S


That's a fantastic idea, and I'll have to check it.  Everyone serious about chess uses silicon to analyze the openings, and has since the turn of the millenium.  No need to be bashful about it.

I agree that Rizzitano's (right, two z's) QGA book is very good, and I would recommend it to partisans of either side.  For example, 1. d4 d5  2. c4 dxc4  3. Nf3 Nf6  4. e3 e6  5. Bxc4 c5  6. 0-0 a6  7. Bb3 b5  8. a4 b4  9. e4 cxd4  10. Nbd2 Bb7  11. e5 Nfd7  12. Nc4 Nc5  13. Bg5 Qc7!  (Rizzitano is also more complete than Sakaev and Semkov concerning 13...f6?!) 14. Nxd4 Nxb3  15. Nxb3?! and here Sakaev and Semkov (whose book is also excellent) say merely that Black wins a piece, while Rizzitano gives a lengthy analysis of why Black's win of material with 15...h6 actually works.  Also after 15. Qxb3 Nc6  16. Nxc6 Qxc6 17. f3, Sakaev and Semkov are somewhat dismissive of Black's chances and give the somewhat pedestrian 17...Bc5+  18. Kh1 O-O  19. Rac1 as +=, while Rizzitano gives what seems to me to be a more critical line, 17...Qc7!?  18. Rac1 Bd5  19. Qd3 Bc5+  20. Kh1 O-O  21. Rfd1 Qa7, claiming =.  I am not sure who is right about the evaluation of the position after 17. f3, but it shows that it is useful to have Rizzitano's book.  One of its strengths is that in many positions, it gives more than one reasonable way for Black to play.  (The above was from memory and with no board; I hope I got the moves right.)

White or Black, I would not do without both Rizzitano and Sakaev+Semkov.
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #6 - 04/04/06 at 09:24:24
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Hello Mark,

The highly silicon assisted idea, looking at last night was

27...Kd5  28. Nf7 (Ng6) Ke4!?  29. Qe5+ Kd3  31. Qd4+ Kc2 32. NxR Qd5. 
When if white goes into the peice up ending with 33 Q*Q, he finds he is probably losing. White has lots of ways to get a draw, but have not seen a way to crack this miracle defence yet. 
     What I meant to say was my preferred defence was 7... e6 8 pxp nb6, 7 ...nb6 was accidental TN.
   The Rizzitano book is a lot better than orginally thought, packed full with new analysis.

Bye John S
  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 Gambit
Reply #5 - 04/04/06 at 00:44:01
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agree white's play is worth a pawn after 4... a6, and for sure these positions are more interesting than the IQP main lines! The engines have different opinions though, Fritz generally loves Black, while Fruit thinks it is possible for White to obtain his usual += in the main positions. Ultimately i suspect Fruit is right (how can a move like 4... a6 be so good~). My difficulty with this gambit is the pawn structure c3-d4-e5 which looks abit too fixed to me (not a problem in the Anti-Moscow), hence White's piece-play needs to be fairly exact(?!), and i'm not sure if i possess such a high level of accuracy. 

Will you recommend Rizzitano's book for the player of the White side? Currently only have Semkov's first ed. 

if he's reading this, i also hope Ruslan gives more coverage to this gambit on chesspub!
« Last Edit: 04/04/06 at 03:11:55 by lnn2 »  
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Re: QGA 4. Nc3 gambit
Reply #4 - 04/03/06 at 19:41:13
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lnn2 wrote on 04/03/06 at 14:59:14:
Hello Markovich,

The 4. Nc3 gambit (and also 3.e4) is a line which i really wish would work for White since I like space. but last i looked a few years ago, wasn't very optimistic, and compared to Botvinnik/Moscow, this gambit looks like a far safer pawn grab for Black.  I am away from home, and don't have my Sakaev/Semkov book with me, but wonder if 11. e6!? is really necessary, or how is main line 11. Ba3 faring at the moment? 

Looking at my Informator, Illescas gives 11. e6 a "?!". I agree with your opinion on final position 23. Kxf1, and will love to have this position OTB (not easy to find 23... Bg7!, which barely holds the balance), but then Black has a number of choices earlier (say at move 12), so it takes alot of work to play this gambit well. Any tips on how to study this gambit for White side, and where to look? 

p.s.Rizzitano's title is really quite outrageous =)


Well, my point is that 23...Bg7 doesn't hold the balance, and hence, 11. e6 is perhaps a better try than 11. Ba3.  However, I haven't looked at it much, particularly 12...Bd5 as suggested by Rizitano.  In general though, I'm surprised that anyone would suggest that White's play is not worth at least the pawn after 4...a6.  I think one of the main reasons people at the top drifted away from 4. Nc3 is that Black can play 4...c6 and get the main line of the Slav, something not to the taste of every White.

An analogous gambit, which I DO consider dicey, is 2. c4 c6  3. Nf3 Nf6  4. Nc3 dxc4 5. e4.
  
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