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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3/Nf3 (Read 9727 times)
ErictheRed
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #23 - 05/29/07 at 16:23:33
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Gerry1970 wrote on 05/26/07 at 03:42:06:
Hello Kylemeister:

What is the sequence "1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b5" named? Any books that cover it.

Thanks,

Gerry


I've heard it called the "Polish Defence Deferred."  I'm guessing the "normal" Polish Defence must be 1.d4 b5.
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #22 - 05/26/07 at 04:16:50
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Gerry1970 wrote on 05/26/07 at 03:42:06:
Hello Kylemeister:

What is the sequence "1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b5" named? Any books that cover it.

Thanks,

Gerry


Hi,

I don't think I've ever seen a name for it, though it seems fairly respectable.  Nor do I know of any particular books, aside from general works like ECO and NCO.  I notice that both of those think that White should get a slight advantage, starting with 3. Bg5.
  
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Gerry1970
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #21 - 05/26/07 at 03:42:06
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Hello Kylemeister:

What is the sequence "1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b5" named? Any books that cover it.

Thanks,

Gerry
  
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kylemeister
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #20 - 05/26/07 at 03:25:02
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1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 b5 and 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 c5 come to mind.  But in the second case, 3. c4 (as well as I suspect being the best move) should steer into familiar territory, e.g. a Tarrasch Defence.
  
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Gerry1970
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Met Albin today for the first time
Reply #19 - 05/26/07 at 02:39:58
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Hello All:

Well I met Albin for the first time and this question back to mind. Does 1.d4 and 2.Nf3 mean that my opponent could avoid the QGD in some way or could he get me into some other offbeat opening that would take me just as long to learn as the Albin and the Budapest.

I will be playing an early Nf3 instead of Nc3 (so as to meet QID/Bogo instead of Nimzo).

Always appreciate any help! Great forums I must say.

Gerry

Gerry1970 wrote on 04/26/06 at 17:02:25:
Thanks John:

It would seem that to avoid the Budpest with an early Nf3 you would have to play 2.Nf3 as after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 he can play ...e5.

Does 1.d4 and 2.Nf3 mean that he could avoid the QGD in some way or could he get me into some other offbeat opening.

I am deciding whether to play an early Nf3/Nc3 and its interesting to see the varied paths from these moves.

Thanks,

Gerry

Quote:
To answer the man's question, yes the Budapest, also the Albin and the Benko. And I suppose 2 Nf3 avoided the Czech Benoni to a certain extent.


  
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Markovich
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #18 - 04/27/06 at 17:59:33
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lnn2 wrote on 04/27/06 at 04:09:57:
Markovich wrote on 04/27/06 at 02:37:25:
[quote author=JohnCox(Guest) link=1145657275/0#14 date=1146091294]

I don't think it cuts out the Tango, because, after all, 1. d4 Nf6  2. Nf3 e6  3. c4 Nc6 produces the same position that arises from 2. c4 Nc6  3. Nf3! e6.  Eh?


White can play 1. d4 Nf6  2. Nf3 e6  3. c4 Nc6 4. g3 likely transposing to a ...Nc6 Catalan, which gives interesting play for both sides.



I assume your point is about the Tango, and not about 2. Nf3 particularly.  The given position can be reached either way. 

Yes, for a Catalan player, 4. g3 makes some sense.  4. a3 looks stronger to me, however, since it does more to exploit the presence of the c6 knight.  As you will know, ...Nc6 against the Catalan is fully viable.
  

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JOhn Cox(Guest)
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #17 - 04/27/06 at 12:28:52
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Markovich - yes of course you're right; on the contrary 2 Nf3 just restricts White's options against the Tango.
  
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lnn2
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #16 - 04/27/06 at 04:09:57
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Markovich wrote on 04/27/06 at 02:37:25:
[quote author=JohnCox(Guest) link=1145657275/0#14 date=1146091294]

I don't think it cuts out the Tango, because, after all, 1. d4 Nf6  2. Nf3 e6  3. c4 Nc6 produces the same position that arises from 2. c4 Nc6  3. Nf3! e6.  Eh?


White can play 1. d4 Nf6  2. Nf3 e6  3. c4 Nc6 4. g3 likely transposing to a ...Nc6 Catalan, which gives interesting play for both sides.

Fox is right about 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 c6 7.e3 Bf5 or 7.Qc2 g6, both give Black theoretical equality. Anyway i think White doesn't have much in the lines with 3.Nc3 Be7 4. cxd5 exd5 5. Bf4 c6 6. Qc2 Bd6! and 6. e3 Bf5 7. g4 Be6, but maybe i can be taught.
  
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Markovich
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #15 - 04/27/06 at 02:37:25
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After 4...Nxd5 5 e4 Nxc3 6 bxc3 c5 7 Rb1 is supposed to be good, preventing the ...Bb4+ Black gets in in the normal semi-Tarrasch. Or just 7 Nf3 with a semi-Tarrasch, of course: after all very few top players are willing to enter this as Black.

I don't think Black can do anything particularly after 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3; of course it restricts the lines you can play against the Benoni, KID, Grunfeld, QGA and even the a6 Slav to a certain extent, but if you're comfortable with that it does have some upsides in avoiding the openings I mentioned; not that they're so fearsome really. I suppose it also cuts out the Tango, or at least I assume 2...Nc6 3 d5 is good.


I don't think it cuts out the Tango, because, after all, 1. d4 Nf6  2. Nf3 e6  3. c4 Nc6 produces the same position that arises from 2. c4 Nc6  3. Nf3! e6.  Eh?
  

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JohnCox(Guest)
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #14 - 04/26/06 at 22:41:34
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After 4...Nxd5 5 e4 Nxc3 6 bxc3 c5 7 Rb1 is supposed to be good, preventing the ...Bb4+ Black gets in in the normal semi-Tarrasch. Or just 7 Nf3 with a semi-Tarrasch, of course: after all very few top players are willing to enter this as Black.

I don't think Black can do anything particularly after 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3; of course it restricts the lines you can play against the Benoni, KID, Grunfeld, QGA and even the a6 Slav to a certain extent, but if you're comfortable with that it does have some upsides in avoiding the openings I mentioned; not that they're so fearsome really. I suppose it also cuts out the Tango, or at least I assume 2...Nc6 3 d5 is good.
  
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Meat(Guest)
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #13 - 04/26/06 at 21:15:30
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I'm not sure what is it that you don't like about grünfeld-isch positions with e7-e6 instead of g7-g6 played (obviously inferior setup for Black) or transpositions to a favorable Semi-Tarrasch variation. I would love it if all of my opponents (or any, for that matter) played 4...Nxd5?!


The point is that I play the Russian System in the Grünfeld with Qb3. I generally do not take on d5 and play e4 Nxc3 bxc3.
I had the same thought, that the setup with e6 should be inferior, but it's pretty hard to prove that in a game, as there's no immediate drawback to it. So my problem is that I land in structures I try to avoid.
I also tried playing 5. Nf4 instead of 5. e4 and then follow up with e3 or g3 but that only transposed to other variations of the Tarrasch.

So for the Tarrasch and Semi-Tarrasch: These are not my favorite lines, but I've had good results against it, so I guess I should be OK with those transpositions. I just hoped there was a way to avoid it and exploit Nxd5 in a more direct way.

Quote:
If you wnat to avoid this line, you can play 3.cxd5 wihtout waiting for the knight to come on f6. But black can try to be even more clever and choose to play 1...Nf6, 2...e6, and then 3...d5 to be sure to get into this line.


Right you are, that's unfortunately not the way to do it. Furthermore: not having played Nf6 gives black some additional options I don't want him to have.

But thanks anyway for the advice!
  
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Gerry1970
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #12 - 04/26/06 at 17:02:25
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Thanks John:

It would seem that to avoid the Budpest with an early Nf3 you would have to play 2.Nf3 as after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 he can play ...e5.

Does 1.d4 and 2.Nf3 mean that he could avoid the QGD in some way or could he get me into some other offbeat opening.

I am deciding whether to play an early Nf3/Nc3 and its interesting to see the varied paths from these moves.

Thanks,

Gerry

Quote:
To answer the man's question, yes the Budapest, also the Albin and the Benko. And I suppose 2 Nf3 avoided the Czech Benoni to a certain extent.

  
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Desert Fox
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #11 - 04/26/06 at 17:02:04
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I've got another question on move orders / deviations in the Exchange:

I want to play the QGD Exchange Variation as white, and therefor after   1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 I play 4. cxd5.
Unfortunately my opponents don't play along with 4...exd5 but rather opt for 4...Nxd5. SO my question is what do I do about that move??

I usually conitued with 5. e4 then, and the game eventually landed in a grünfeld-isch position or transposed after 5...Nxc3 6. bxc3 c5 7. Nf3 cxd4 to the Tarrasch.

The literature I know completely ignores 4...Nxd5 as if it were obviously bad and gives no advice on how do deal with it.


In my database, 5.e4 is the most common reply to Nxd5 capture. It seems the most natural choice, building a big pawn centre. I'm not sure what is it that you don't like about grünfeld-isch positions with e7-e6 instead of g7-g6 played (obviously inferior setup for Black) or transpositions to a favorable Semi-Tarrasch variation. I would love it if all of my opponents (or any, for that matter) played 4...Nxd5?!
  

I never saw an equal exchange I didn't like.
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Gerry1970
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #10 - 04/26/06 at 16:57:14
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Hello All:

Thanks as always for the replies.

What fox wrote about below happened to me against an early Nf3. He played ...Bf5 and had an easy game.

As alumbrado says you can get into the Exchange Variation with an early Nf3 but you need Black to want it too.

Take care,

Gerry

fox wrote on 04/24/06 at 10:36:46:
I think that a quick Nf3 does not allow to enter an exchange variation, since in the main line white can't prevent black from putting his bishop on f5, thus solving his main opening problem without a fight.
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.c4 e6 4.Nc3 Be7 5.cxd5 exd5 6.Bg5 Bf5 =, or 6.Qc2 g6 followed by Bf5.
But against 4...Be7, maybe you can try 5.Bf4!? which is currently very fashionable.
You can try it against 4...c6 (as pointed by alumbrado) or 4...Nbd7 (the knight blocks the access to the f5 square), so it may be a reasonable choice : a QGD exchange vs other moves than ...Be7 (avoiding the cambridge springs and the Botvinnik semi slav), and 5.Bf4 vs ...Be7.

  
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Gerry1970
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Re: Wanting QGD Exchange Variation and playing Nc3
Reply #9 - 04/26/06 at 16:54:30
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Hello All:

This is the Semi-Tarrarch, right?

Gerry

Quote:
I've got another question on move orders / deviations in the Exchange:

I want to play the QGD Exchange Variation as white, and therefor after   1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 I play 4. cxd5.
Unfortunately my opponents don't play along with 4...exd5 but rather opt for 4...Nxd5. SO my question is what do I do about that move??

I usually conitued with 5. e4 then, and the game eventually landed in a grünfeld-isch position or transposed after 5...Nxc3 6. bxc3 c5 7. Nf3 cxd4 to the Tarrasch.

The literature I know completely ignores 4...Nxd5 as if it were obviously bad and gives no advice on how do deal with it.

  
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