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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black's best against 9.0-0-0 (Read 42674 times)
bragesjo
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #38 - 08/03/06 at 13:23:00
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Perhaps Qf4+ first is better since it rules out Qd2

EDIT I missed that white can play Qf5 after Rh1 h4 so instead of h4 Qe3 and the position is equal.

EDIT2 I also missed Qf5 directly after gxh5 when blacks best appear to be Qxf5 Bxf5 e6 Be4 Rc8 Rh1 Rc5!
« Last Edit: 08/04/06 at 09:22:29 by bragesjo »  
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bragesjo
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #37 - 08/03/06 at 12:03:42
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Dearings book and Rogozenkos disc recomends the last line.
15 b3 seems like a rare move, not many games on that line on Rogozenkos disc.

h5 seems like an improvement since Fritz thinks that black is better and didnt have to force a draw in that game.
White gets a smal advantage after 24 h5. I thinks that black best move is Rxh5 followed by Qf4+.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5
Qb7 15. b3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rac8 $1 17. Qa5 Rc3 18. Bxf5 Rxe3 19. Be4 Qb8 20. g3 Qc8
21. g4 Re2 22. h4 Qb8 23. g5 Rh2 24. h5 Rxh5 25. Rxh5 Qf4+ 26. Kb1 (26. Qd2 Qe5
27. c4 (27. Qd5 Qb2+ 28. Kd2 gxh5 29. Qf5 Rd8+ 30. Ke2 Rxd1 31. Kxd1 Qd4+ 32.
Ke2 Qe5 {and white is slightly better}) 27... gxh5 28. Re1 (28. Bd3 a5 29. f4
Qa1+ 30. Bb1 Rc8 31. Qc2 a4 32. bxa4 Kf8) 28... Qc7 29. f4 Rd8 {is equal})
26... gxh5 27. Rh1 (27. c3 e6 28. a3 (28. Rd8 {is bad} h4) 28... Qe3 {is equal}
) (27. Rc1 e6 28. Qxa7 Qxg5 29. Qc7 h4 {is equal}) 27... h4 28. Qd5 h6 29. gxh6
Qxh6 {is equal} *
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #36 - 08/02/06 at 21:44:47
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bragesjo wrote on 08/02/06 at 20:44:44:
Accepting the pawn is dangerous. Black gets a powerfully attack. Sample line
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. b3 Qc6 18. Bxf5
Qc3 is good for black

On the Internet I have often faced this line as black
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. c3 Bxc3 *


I agree that accepting the pawn is dangerous but I have had some success with the move 15.b3:
15...Bf5 16.Bd3 Rfc8 17.Qa5! The queen is better placed here 17...Bxd3? 18.Rxd3 Qc6 19.c4 Qf6 20.Bd4 Qf4+ 21.Qd2 and White won in Agermose Jensen-B.Warncke, Denmark 2003

Agermose Jensen-Klausen, Denmark 2004 saw the same moves up till 17...Qc6 18.Bxf5 gxf5 19.c4 Qf6 20.Bd4 Qg5+ 21.Kb1 Bxd4 22.Rxd4 Qxg2 23.Qe1 Kf8 24.Rg1 Qxh2 and now 25.Rd7! as in Hennings-Lee, Sweden 1966 would have decided instantly.

A rapid game of mine went instead 20...e5 21.Bb2 Rc6 22.Rhe1 with a big plus for White.

I also had 17...Rc3?! 18.Bxf5 Rxe3 19.Be4 winning the exchange (that's why some authors recommend 16...Rac8) in a rapid game. The position after 19...Rxe4 20.fxe4 Qxe4 might not be so easy to win as Black has counterplay on the a1-h8 diagonal. The simplest solution looks like 21.Rhe1 Qxg2 22.Qd5.

Another rapid game went 17...Bc3 18.Qb5! Qc7 19.Bxf5 a6 20.Qd7 (20.Qxc5 was even better) 20...Qa5 21.Kb1 Qxf5 22.Qxf5 gxf5 23.Rd7 and White was better.

Agermose Jensen-Andersen, Denmark 2004 went 16...Rac8 17.Qa5 Qc6?! 18.Bxf5 Qf6? 19.Bxc8+- 1-0 in 26.
17...Bc3 is met by 18.Qb5 while 17...Rc3! 18.Bxf5 Rxe3 19.Bd4 Qb8 20.g3 Qc8 21.g4! Re2 22.h4 Qb8 23.g5 (Here the preparatory 23.Kb1!? is also interesting) 23...Rh2 Psakhis-David, Andorra 1996. And now instead of 24.Rxh2 Qxh2 which quickly drew, why not simply play 24.h5 ?
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #35 - 08/02/06 at 20:44:44
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About Golubevs sacrifice the position is unclear. Everything can happen in that line. Some players says that black has compensation, other claims that white is winning. The line has been played as black by several strong players such as Ivanchuk, maybee because it is easier to play black then to play white in this position. See Adams-Ivanchuk Dortmund 1998. White has more material and blacks compensation is not clear therefore Rb8 is a more modern way of handling the position. The idea whit Rb8 is to play e5 when white must take and open the b file for blacks rook whit good compensation.

Nunns Qe1 is playable but not the most critical.  1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Qe1 e5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
exd5 Nxd5 13. Bc4 Be6 14. Ne4 Qc7 15. Bc5 Rfd8 16. Qh4 h6 is equal.

Accepting the pawn is dangerous. Black gets a powerfully attack. Sample line
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. b3 Qc6 18. Bxf5
Qc3 is good for black

On the Internet I have often faced this line as black
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. c3 Bxc3 *

The critical line recommended by Gloubev for white in Experts vs the Sicilian is
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4  *

Khalifman says that 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 * is a complicated line when the player whit the most experience of this kind of position has the advantage.  
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #34 - 08/02/06 at 19:32:24
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zenken wrote on 08/02/06 at 18:42:44:
Bragesco,


Thx for letting me know the critical line against 9.0-0-0 d5 in your previous post !

I am not clear why in the Milov line you mention where Black sac's his queen how Black gets a demonstrable advantage ? Any evidence ?

Also, I always understood that in Nunn's line 10.Qe1 e5 white could still play 11.Nxc6 surely ? Is this bad for White ?

Also, I have never really understood why White can't accept the pawn sacrifice : 9...d5 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.exd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 !
surely this must be the line to test Black's 9...d5 ?


I would appreciate someone putting me right !

zenken Sad


Well, after 9...d5, accepting the pawn is quite playable, but declining is considered a better try for advantage.  I think you could get a good picture of this by looking in e.g. (small) ECO, NCO or MCO.  I sometimes wonder if anyone uses such books for basic reference any more.   
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #33 - 08/02/06 at 18:42:44
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Bragesco,


Thx for letting me know the critical line against 9.0-0-0 d5 in your previous post !

I am not clear why in the Milov line you mention where Black sac's his queen how Black gets a demonstrable advantage ? Any evidence ?

Also, I always understood that in Nunn's line 10.Qe1 e5 white could still play 11.Nxc6 surely ? Is this bad for White ?

Also, I have never really understood why White can't accept the pawn sacrifice : 9...d5 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.exd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 !
surely this must be the line to test Black's 9...d5 ?


I would appreciate someone putting me right !

zenken Sad
  
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bragesjo
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #32 - 08/02/06 at 08:43:46
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Milovs Kb1 can be meet by either Golubevs queen sacrife Nxd4 11. e5 Nf5 12. exf6
Bxf6 13. Nxd5 Qxd5 14. Qxd5 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxd1 16. Qxd1 Be6 or simply Rb8.

Nunns old suggestion Qe1 simply e5

The critical test to d5 is this line 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 *





  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #31 - 08/02/06 at 01:07:31
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zenken wrote on 08/01/06 at 16:00:18:
I am new to this site and no expert on the Dragon but I think 9.0-0-0 seems crushing to me.

(a) In the line 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Re8 14.h5! seems to win : 14...Nxh5 15.Bxg7 Kxg7
16.g4 Nf6 17.Qh6+ Kg8 18.g5 Nh5 19.Rxh5! gxh5 20.Nd5! Bxd5 21.exd5! and black struggled on
with 21...Rc5 22.Bd3 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.Bxh7+ Kf7 25.Qg6+ Ke7 26.Qg7+ Kd8 27.Bf5 1-0
(Zenken - Stojko ICC blitz 2006)

Am I missing something ? Is there a better move than 11...Re8 ?

(b) Of course, if Black decides to play 9...d5 it is a different story but White has the happy choice between
Milov's 10.Kb1 or 10.Qe1 both of which seem to leave Black in difficulty.

I am no Dragon expert but I think the Dragon is busted !


Well, I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind with line (a) since you omitted moves 12 and 13, but when I played the line, I favored 11...Qc7.  Of course, I think that the entire idea of 9...Nxd4/10...Be6 has been shown to be lacking, as the above posts, and other threads, suggest.

Against 9...d5 it would seem to me that White is very far from winning in either of the lines that you mentioned.  At the very least, White's edge is slight and certainly a long-term advantage is not proven.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #30 - 08/01/06 at 16:00:18
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To all Dragon lovers,

I am new to this site and no expert on the Dragon but I think 9.0-0-0 seems crushing to me.

(a) In the line 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Re8 14.h5! seems to win : 14...Nxh5 15.Bxg7 Kxg7
16.g4 Nf6 17.Qh6+ Kg8 18.g5 Nh5 19.Rxh5! gxh5 20.Nd5! Bxd5 21.exd5! and black struggled on
with 21...Rc5 22.Bd3 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.Bxh7+ Kf7 25.Qg6+ Ke7 26.Qg7+ Kd8 27.Bf5 1-0
(Zenken - Stojko ICC blitz 2006)

Am I missing something ? Is there a better move than 11...Re8 ?

(b) Of course, if Black decides to play 9...d5 it is a different story but White has the happy choice between
Milov's 10.Kb1 or 10.Qe1 both of which seem to leave Black in difficulty.

I am no Dragon expert but I think the Dragon is busted !

Anyone care to comment, I would be happy to debate my assessment with others !

zenken Cool
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #29 - 07/01/06 at 09:19:29
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Greetings,

For a somewhat different take on the 9. 000, d5; line - an opponent in one of my games played an idea of Dvoiris - 10. Qe1!? and lost.

See http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151693701

FightingDragon
I've taken a look at the line you're talking about with 19. c3 - it certainly looks as if Black's ended up in a position where he needs a few tempi to sort himself out!

Apart from 19..., Bh6; I've glanced at 19 ..., a5; 19 ..., Rb7; 19 ..., Rfe8; and 19 ..., Rfd8;

None of them work - they're all a couple of steps behind White, who ends up winning a pawn during exchanges, which should be enough to win a "technical" ending - if that.

Kindest regards,

James
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #28 - 06/21/06 at 12:11:44
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One could argue that the pawn doesn't make it's presence felt in such a complicated position.
But at some point there will be exchanges, so that in the end the pawn is a pawn.  Roll Eyes
Come on, Eric, enlighten us about black's chances!  Smiley
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #27 - 06/21/06 at 08:31:57
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There is also the problem 16.BxRf8 !? (De Firmian - Ward 2003 soon 1-0) but this is another question !
After 16.Ng5 e4 17.Bb3 Qf6 18.ç3 Bh6 19.h4 Rfe8 20.Bxa7 for exemple Ra8 21.Bd4 Qe7 22.f4 white is solid as a rock with a extra pawn.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #26 - 06/21/06 at 08:07:08
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If you read my earlier post, you will see that I already suggested 19.h4.
So let's continue at that stage!  Cool
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #25 - 06/21/06 at 05:44:15
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If I understood an earlier post, Dr. Moscow already mention that after 18.c3 he has played 18...Bh6.  Perhaps a move or some analysis starting with white's 19th move will spark more sharing of concrete variations.  Here are the moves again:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4: 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.ed5 Nd5 11.Nc6 bc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Rb8 15.Bc4 f5 16.Ng5 e4 17.Bb3 Qf6 18.c3 Bh6

  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #24 - 06/20/06 at 07:50:53
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Has anyone already looked closer at my analysis in the main variation?
TopNotch calls them "tedious drawing lines", but in my opinion black should be content with a draw against a strong player. If we were to prove that black is really equal, this would be a great success for black!

If you want to beat lower rated players, you can play one of the objectively worse variations and hope they don't know theory well enough to expose the drawbacks. In that respect, I think 9. ... Bd7 and 9. ... Nd4: have a lot of winning potential.

@Eric: I set up your idea with 9. ... Nd4: 10.Bd4: Be6 11.Kb1 a5?! on the board and I think it gives black absolutely nothing. Firstly, white can play a4, what is black to do then, with b5 and b6 under white's grip? I think he is clearly worse there. And even if white allows black to play a4 (and stops the pawn with a3), then after Qa5 there is no threat on a2 by the queen.
I think it isn't an achievement by itself to have the queen on a5!
About Karlsson's line I can't say much, but it looks somehow unhealthy. But it could be playable.
And will you present your thougts on the Rb8 line??
  
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