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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black's best against 9.0-0-0 (Read 39621 times)
Glenn Snow
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #68 - 03/06/07 at 19:52:23
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I found this game at Chessbase.com which so far hasn't been featured on Chesspub.  White tries a different 17th move than any game or analysis given by Ward, so perhaps it's an improvement for White (although I haven't looked at it!). 

[Event "Calvia op 1st"]
[Site "Calvia"]
[Date "2004.11.01"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Womacka,Mathias"]
[Black "Habibi,Ali"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B76"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6
9.0-0-0 Be6 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.hxg6 fxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 Bf7
17.Ne2 Qxd2 18.Rxd2 a6 19.e5 Ne8 20.exd6 Nxd6 21.Bxg7 Kxg7 22.Ng3 Rc7 23.Ne4 Rd8 24.Ng5 Bg8
25.Re2 Rdd7 26.b3 b5 27.Kb2 Nb7 28.b4 Nd6 29.Rhe1 Kf8 30.Ne6+ Bxe6 31.Rxe6 Kf7 32.R1e2 Rc6
33.Kb3 Rdc7 34.a4 Rc3+ 35.Kb2 R3c6 36.axb5 axb5 37.R6e5 Rb6 38.Rc5 Ra7 39.Ree5 Rab7 40.g4 Kf6
41.g5+ Kf7 42.Kc3 Kf8 43.Kd4 Rd7 44.Ke3 Rdb7 45.Kf2 Kf7 46.Kg3 Kf8 47.Kg4 Kf7 48.Kh4 Kf8
49.Kg4 Kg7 50.Kg3 Kf8 51.Kf2 Kg7 52.Ke2 Kf8 53.Kd2 Rd7 54.Kc3 Rdb7 55.Kb3 Kf7 56.Kb2 Kg7
57.f4 Kf7 58.Kc3 Kg7 59.Kd2 Rd7 60.Kc3 Rdb7 61.Kb3 Kf8 62.Kb2 Kg7 63.Re1 Ra7 64.Ra1 Rxa1
65.Kxa1 Rb7 66.Kb2 Kf7 67.Kc3 e6 68.Rc6 Ne8 69.Kd4 Rd7+ 70.Kc5 Rd5+ 71.Kb6 Nd6 72.Rc7+ Kg8
73.Kc6 Nf5 74.Bxf5 Rxf5 75.Kb6 Rxf4 76.Kxb5 e5 77.Re7 Rf5 78.Kc6 Kf8 79.Rxh7 Rf4 80.b5 Rc4+
81.Kd5 Rxc2 82.b6  1-0

  
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FightingDragon
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #67 - 03/06/07 at 15:19:07
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Time to bring the thread back on topic!

For some years it has been established that 9. ... d5 is the way to go for black, but there is an interesting comment from Chris Ward at the ChessPub Dragon update.
Unfortunately I'm neither a subscriber nor can I find the score of Zecevic-Feletar anywhere.  Sad
Could someone post the plain game score, or would that be a violation?
Alternatively I also would be content with a reference in which tournament the game was played.
  
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parisestmagique
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #66 - 12/12/06 at 08:43:52
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This variation is useful only if you accept that white can take an early draw with for exemple 14.NxN cxN 15.QxQPaddy wrote on 12/11/06 at 16:53:07:
This thread has veered way off topic (apparently since Frendo's post of 3rd December).

A new thread please!

On topic, perhaps we should be looking more closely at 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 as played Scholar and ... Charbonneau!

  
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TopNotch
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #65 - 12/12/06 at 01:16:49
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Paddy wrote on 12/11/06 at 16:53:07:
This thread has veered way off topic (apparently since Frendo's post of 3rd December).

A new thread please!

On topic, perhaps we should be looking more closely at 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 as played Scholar and ... Charbonneau!


Hard to argue with u there Paddy, this Hyper Accelerated Dragon line does deserve a separate thread, and I see that Frendo has already taken the initiative in that respect, so I will respond there accordingly.

Toppers Smiley  
« Last Edit: 12/12/06 at 16:16:33 by TopNotch »  

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Glenn Snow
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #64 - 12/12/06 at 00:56:40
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Yes, my apologies.  I really suppose I should have originally started a new thread.  I now have started a new thread in the "1.e4..." section titled "1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5" which I would think is the more common move order.  I've copied Dragonslayer's, Topnotch's, and my own comments regarding this position to that thread should members wish to continue the discussion.
  
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Paddy
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #63 - 12/11/06 at 16:53:07
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This thread has veered way off topic (apparently since Frendo's post of 3rd December).

A new thread please!

On topic, perhaps we should be looking more closely at 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 as played Scholar and ... Charbonneau!
  
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #62 - 12/11/06 at 16:04:45
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TopNotch wrote on 12/10/06 at 01:59:55:
[Event "III Open"]
[Site "Calvia ESP"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Jones,G"]
[Black "Gonzalez Arribas,V"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2430"]
[BlackElo "2297"]
[ECO "B23"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Qa5 6. Qd4 Nf6 7. Qb4 Qc7 8. Nf3 (8.Bb5!+/= - OFWATA) Nc6 9. Qa4
Ne5 10. Be3 b6 11. Qa3 bxc5 12. Bxc5 d6?

12...Nxe4 draws immediately.  8.Bb5 doesn't seems that scary. I would simply castle and then play Nc6. If White takes on c6 then Qxc6. Black should then break with b7-b6.

Quote:
[Event "34th World Open"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Sadvakasov,D"]
[Black "Dougherty,M"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2619"]
[BlackElo "2186"]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Nf6!? 6. e5 (6.Bh6!+/- - OFWATA) Ne4 7. Bc4 Nxc5 8. Nf3 Qc7

8...Qa5 looks a lot better.
A pattern in the ratings of players when "proving" a White advantage starts to emerge. Perhaps you meant to prove that given the White pieces 100 or 500 ratingpoints really matters?
Anyway 6.Bh6 is hardly decisive. E.g. 6...Qa5 7.Qf3 Ng4!? (7...Nxe4 8.Bc4 looks dangerous.)

Quote:
[Sample Line - OFWATA]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Toppy"]
[Black "Toppy"]
[Round ""]
[Result "]
[WhiteElo]
[BlackElo]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Qa5 5. Bd2
Qxc5 6. Nd5 b6 7. Bb4 Qc6 8. Bb5 Qb7 9. Qf3!
Bxb2 10. Bc3 Bxa1

When I read this "analysis" I couldn't believe it. Giving up your Dragon bishop for the rook on a1. I mean, come on! Not even a novice Dragon player would consider this, and I'd be d..... if I would ever contemplate it in the Leningrad Dutch.
9...Nc6 10.Bc3 f6! Followed by a6, b5 and b4 pushing the bishop off the diagonal. Then e6 pushes the knight and Nge7 follows. If White anticipates this with 11.a3, Black can play 11...a6 12.Bc4 b5 13.Bb3 e6!
I am not claiming that Black is better in these lines or even completely equal, just that they are playable.
Btw. I don't have the books by Anand - sorry Khalifman - sorry whatshisname ghost writer. And I don't think much of the authority argument when it is not substantiated by more than raw moves. I might as well rebut your "analysis" by Fritz9 analysis but then I would have no case since it thinks the position is +/- Instead I prefer to discuss opinions and analysis with real people. I already have Fritz9 and I could probably manage to buy the "Anand" books if I wanted to. Don't get me wrong I think it is ok to quote from books if people ask or if you want to get more than one take on the subject. But having me give lines, analysis and plans and then replying with quotes consisting of moves and the occasional Informator symbol from a book is really below par, don't you think?
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #61 - 12/10/06 at 01:59:55
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Dragonslayer wrote on 12/09/06 at 17:50:48:
I have played the variations after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 (or the obvious transposition from the modern defence 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5!? or 1.d4 g6 2.e4 etc.) with both colours. I always thought that 4.dxc5 Bxc3+ was the most interesting choice. In case of 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5 I don't like 6...Na6 but prefer 6...b6 7.Bb4 (or 7.Be3) 7...Qc6 8.Bb5 Qb7 which is not so easy to crack. Don't believe Fritz who thinks the position is +-. It does not understand such positions and overrates White's development. The modern is a counterattacking opening and White cannot mount a decisive assault before Black pushes the pieces back and finishes development. I think White has slightly the better chances but Black's position is playable.
Btw. when Black has two options after 4.dxc5, logically one needs to show something after both 4...Qa5 and 4...Bxc3+ to put the ?! sign after 3...c5 (or 3...Bg7 in the Dragon moveorder).


Ok since you insist on being shown why the dubious desigination is justified after 3..c5?!, I will attempt to do so with the aid of a couple of illustrative games and sample analysis:


[Event "III Open"]
[Site "Calvia ESP"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Jones,G"]
[Black "Gonzalez Arribas,V"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2430"]
[BlackElo "2297"]
[ECO "B23"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Qa5 6. Qd4 Nf6 7. Qb4 Qc7 8. Nf3 (8.Bb5!+/= - OFWATA) Nc6 9. Qa4
Ne5 10. Be3 b6 11. Qa3 bxc5 12. Bxc5 d6 13. Nxe5
dxc5 14. Bb5+ Kf8 15. f4 Nxe4 16. Bc6 Bb7 17. Bxe4
Bxe4 18. O-O-O Bf5 19. c4 f6 20. g4 Be6 21. Nd3
Rc8 22. g5 Bxc4 23. gxf6 exf6 24. Qc3 Qf7 25. Nf2
Kg7 26. Ne4 Bd5 27. Nd6 Qe6 28. Nxc8 Bxh1 29. Nd6
Rd8 30. Nf5+ Qxf5 31. Rxd8 Qxf4+ 32. Kb2 Qb4+ 33. Qxb4
cxb4 34. Rd7+ Kh6 35. Rxa7 f5 36. Kb3 f4 37. Kxb4
Be4 38. Kc3 g5 39. Kd2 Kh5 40. Re7 Bf5 41. a4
Kg4 42. a5 Bc8 43. Rxh7 Kf3 44. Rc7 Bh3 45. Rc3+
Kg2 46. Rxh3 g4 47. Ra3 f3 48. a6 1-0



[Event "34th World Open"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Sadvakasov,D"]
[Black "Dougherty,M"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2619"]
[BlackElo "2186"]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Nf6!? 6. e5 (6.Bh6!+/- - OFWATA) Ne4 7. Bc4 Nxc5 8. Nf3 Qc7 9. O-O
Ne6 10. Qe2 b6 11. Nd4 Nc6 12. Nb5 Qb8 13. f4
a6 14. Nd4 Bb7 15. Be3 Qc7 16. Nb3 b5 17. Bd3
Na5 18. Nxa5 Qxa5 19. c4 bxc4 20. Bxc4 Rc8 21. Rad1
Ng7 22. Rb1 Qc7 23. Rxb7 Qxb7 24. Bxa6 Rxc2 25. Qxc2
Qxa6 26. Bc5 Qc6 27. Rc1 Ne6 28. Be3 Qxc2 29. Rxc2
O-O 30. a4 Ra8 31. Ra2 Nc7 32. a5 Nd5 33. Kf2
Ra6 34. Bd2 Kf8 35. g4 e6 36. Ra3 f5 37. gxf5
gxf5 38. Ke2 Nc7 39. Rb3 Nd5 40. Kd3 Ke7 41. Rb8
Kf7 42. Rc8 d6 43. exd6 Rxd6 44. Ke2 Ra6 45. Rb8
Kg6 46. Rb3 h5 47. Kd3 h4 48. Kd4 Kh5 49. h3
Rc6 50. Ra3 Nc7 51. Kd3 Rd6+ 52. Ke2 Ra6 53. Ra1
Nd5 54. Kf3 Nf6 55. Be3 Ne4 56. Ke2 Kg6 57. Bd4
Kf7 58. Bf2 e5 59. fxe5 Ng5 60. Bxh4 Nxh3 61. Kf3
Kg6  1-0




[Sample Line - OFWATA]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Toppy"]
[Black "Toppy"]
[Round ""]
[Result "]
[WhiteElo]
[BlackElo]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Qa5 5. Bd2
Qxc5 6. Nd5 b6 7. Bb4 Qc6 8. Bb5 Qb7 9. Qf3!
Bxb2 10. Bc3 Bxa1 11. Bxa1 f6 12. e5 e6 13. exf6
Nh6 14. Qa3 Nc6 15. Nf3 Nf7 16. O-O exd5 17. Nd4
Nfe5 18. Re1 Kd8 19. Rxe5 Nxe5 20. Qe7+ Kc7 21. Ne6+
Kb8 22. Qd6+ Qc7 23. Qxc7# 1-0

The above lines I believe are the most testing for black to meet, and as far as I can tell he faces a very unpleasant defensive task.

Toppylov Smiley




« Last Edit: 12/10/06 at 04:28:36 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Dragonslayer
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #60 - 12/09/06 at 17:50:48
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I have played the variations after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 (or the obvious transposition from the modern defence 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5!? or 1.d4 g6 2.e4 etc.) with both colours. I always thought that 4.dxc5 Bxc3+ was the most interesting choice. In case of 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5 I don't like 6...Na6 but prefer 6...b6 7.Bb4 (or 7.Be3) 7...Qc6 8.Bb5 Qb7 which is not so easy to crack. Don't believe Fritz who thinks the position is +-. It does not understand such positions and overrates White's development. The modern is a counterattacking opening and White cannot mount a decisive assault before Black pushes the pieces back and finishes development. I think White has slightly the better chances but Black's position is playable.
Btw. when Black has two options after 4.dxc5, logically one needs to show something after both 4...Qa5 and 4...Bxc3+ to put the ?! sign after 3...c5 (or 3...Bg7 in the Dragon moveorder).
  
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #59 - 12/09/06 at 03:24:59
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I had thought Black was OK, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5!, because of some old analysis I'd seen of 6...Na6 7.Bc3 Kf8!?.  However, looking through a database, it seems that 7.Bc3 isn't the strongest move and Black's position is rather unpleasant.  Probably, Black should avoid this variation and try one of the other options (3...cxd4 or 3...Bg7 4.dxc5 Bxc3+) if he wishes to meet 2.Nc3 with g6.
  
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TopNotch
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #58 - 12/09/06 at 02:24:11
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Quote:
Also after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 (4...Bxc3+ looks like a decent try to unbalance the position) 5.Bd2 Qxd5 6.Nd5 is a known line that is fine for Black if he knows what he's doing.

All in all I agree that 2...g6 is a very playable option after either 2.Nf3 or 2.Nc3 and one that White isn't likely to be as well prepared for.  



I am not sure how fine Black's game is after the following sequence 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5! as his position looks very unpleasant to me. In fact the simple and strong 4.dxc5! is why many players that employ the Modern defence avoid the move order 1e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5?! and voila we have arrived at the same tabiya via transposition.

I do agree though that move order tricks and finesses are a major concern for many Sicilian players, but nevertheless to be forewarned is to be forearmed and every move order trick designed to get a Sicilian player out of his pet system has drawbacks of its own, one simply has to make the most of them.

Toppers Smiley    
« Last Edit: 12/10/06 at 00:55:33 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Glenn Snow
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #57 - 12/09/06 at 01:49:57
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I suppose I've lead us a little off topic but these move order issues can be important to Dragon players so it doesn't bother me much.

In variation "a" after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Qa4 d6 7.e5 dxe5 8.Nxe5 Bd7 (Fritz suggested 8...Qd4!?) 9.Nxd7 Qxd7 10.Bb5 Bg7 11.Be3 0-0 12.Rd1 Qc8 13.Bxc6 bxc6, Rowson has written, "In this case White does seem to a slight edge...".  Doesn't look terribly frightening though.

In variation "b" White does have the option of 8.fxe7 Qxe7+ 9.Qe3 Nb4 10.Kd1 which also may give him a slight edge, although as usual I'm not really sure.

In variation "c" 6.Qa4 is stupid with Nc3 instead of Nf3 so your 6.Qf4 looks right and after 6...Nh5 then maybe 6.Qe4 with a position I'm not sure about (surprise).  Perhaps you've looked into enough to know Black is OK here.

Also after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 (4...Bxc3+ looks like a decent try to unbalance the position) 5.Bd2 Qxd5 6.Nd5 is a known line that is fine for Black if he knows what he's doing.

All in all I agree that 2...g6 is a very playable option after either 2.Nf3 or 2.Nc3 and one that White isn't likely to be as well prepared for. 



  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #56 - 12/08/06 at 22:40:58
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Yes the Benoni with 4.d5 is annoying and the spoilers always choose this. Still I think Black is ok even if White has square c4 for a knight.
4.dc5 is better for Black than in the variations after 2.Nf3, since the knight on c3 blocks White from irritating exchanges on this square. 4...Qa5 or 4...Bxc3+ should both be ok.
4.Qxd4 Nf6 and now:
a) 5.Nf3 transposes to the line 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3. After 5...Nc6 6.Qa4 d6 7.e5 dxe5 8.Nxe5 I think 8...Bd7 solves Black's problems.

b)5.Bb5 can be met by 5...a6 just as in the similar line with Nf3 (2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Bb5 a6! 6.e5 axb5 7.exf6 Nc6 8.Q). After 6.e5 axb5 7.exf6 Nc6 8.Q(anywhere) Black would (in case of Nf3 in lieu of Nc3) play b5-b4 to prevent the knight from developing. Here the knight is already out but Black will still play b4 which hits the knight and stiffles White's queenside.

c) This leaves 5.e5 which is better now with the knight on c3 preventing Black's usual Nf6-d5-c7 maneuver. So Black has to go for 5...Nc6 6.Qf4 Nh5. After 6.Qa4? I don't see much wrong with 6...Nxe5.

I totally agree that it is ultimately a matter of choice which anti-Sicilian one prefers to play against, but don't believe the people who only offers opinions and no variations and then give sweeping statements about the playability of 2.Nf3/Nc3 g6.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #55 - 12/08/06 at 03:15:39
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Yeah, after I posted that I remembered that 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 might be a better way to achieve the Dragadorf without allowing the GPA with 2...d6, however I still have a few concerns.  I'm not Black has nothing to fear from 3.d4 cxd4 (3...Bg7 is certainly playable but you also have to be comfortable with the Benoni after 4.d5 and know how to handle 4.dxc5) 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Bb5, 5.e5 Nc6 6.Qa4 Ng8 7.Qe4 or 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Qa4.  All of these variations have their sting and I'm not sure I wouldn't rather just play 2...d6 if my intention was to play the
Dragadorf.  I suppose it may come down to a matter of taste.
  
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Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #54 - 12/06/06 at 14:32:37
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Quote:
The only possible practical problem I can think of is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3, since Black usually delays moving his queen-knight or develops it to d7.  Black might have to play like Nadjorf players with 2...d6 or be comfortable with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5.  Then again I think there is an thread here on the forum that argues that Black has good alternatives in the Accelerated Dragon to transposing to the main-line Dragon.(?)


In case of 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 Black forfeits the right to play ...e6 and ...d5 against a White setup with f2-f4.
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6(!) keeps Black's options open. White has eschewed his chances for a bind, while ...g6 is a good setup against the closed Sicilian, KIA or Grand Prix attack (in case of 3.g3, 3.d3 or 3.f4). 3.d4 cxd4 (or 3...Bg7!?) 4.Qxd4 Nf6 is nothing to fear.

  
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