Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Black's best against 9.0-0-0 (Read 39619 times)
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #68 - 03/06/07 at 19:52:23
Post Tools
I found this game at Chessbase.com which so far hasn't been featured on Chesspub.  White tries a different 17th move than any game or analysis given by Ward, so perhaps it's an improvement for White (although I haven't looked at it!). 

[Event "Calvia op 1st"]
[Site "Calvia"]
[Date "2004.11.01"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Womacka,Mathias"]
[Black "Habibi,Ali"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B76"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6
9.0-0-0 Be6 10.Kb1 Nxd4 11.Bxd4 Qc7 12.h4 Rfc8 13.h5 Qa5 14.hxg6 fxg6 15.a3 Rab8 16.Bd3 Bf7
17.Ne2 Qxd2 18.Rxd2 a6 19.e5 Ne8 20.exd6 Nxd6 21.Bxg7 Kxg7 22.Ng3 Rc7 23.Ne4 Rd8 24.Ng5 Bg8
25.Re2 Rdd7 26.b3 b5 27.Kb2 Nb7 28.b4 Nd6 29.Rhe1 Kf8 30.Ne6+ Bxe6 31.Rxe6 Kf7 32.R1e2 Rc6
33.Kb3 Rdc7 34.a4 Rc3+ 35.Kb2 R3c6 36.axb5 axb5 37.R6e5 Rb6 38.Rc5 Ra7 39.Ree5 Rab7 40.g4 Kf6
41.g5+ Kf7 42.Kc3 Kf8 43.Kd4 Rd7 44.Ke3 Rdb7 45.Kf2 Kf7 46.Kg3 Kf8 47.Kg4 Kf7 48.Kh4 Kf8
49.Kg4 Kg7 50.Kg3 Kf8 51.Kf2 Kg7 52.Ke2 Kf8 53.Kd2 Rd7 54.Kc3 Rdb7 55.Kb3 Kf7 56.Kb2 Kg7
57.f4 Kf7 58.Kc3 Kg7 59.Kd2 Rd7 60.Kc3 Rdb7 61.Kb3 Kf8 62.Kb2 Kg7 63.Re1 Ra7 64.Ra1 Rxa1
65.Kxa1 Rb7 66.Kb2 Kf7 67.Kc3 e6 68.Rc6 Ne8 69.Kd4 Rd7+ 70.Kc5 Rd5+ 71.Kb6 Nd6 72.Rc7+ Kg8
73.Kc6 Nf5 74.Bxf5 Rxf5 75.Kb6 Rxf4 76.Kxb5 e5 77.Re7 Rf5 78.Kc6 Kf8 79.Rxh7 Rf4 80.b5 Rc4+
81.Kd5 Rxc2 82.b6  1-0

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #67 - 03/06/07 at 15:19:07
Post Tools
Time to bring the thread back on topic!

For some years it has been established that 9. ... d5 is the way to go for black, but there is an interesting comment from Chris Ward at the ChessPub Dragon update.
Unfortunately I'm neither a subscriber nor can I find the score of Zecevic-Feletar anywhere.  Sad
Could someone post the plain game score, or would that be a violation?
Alternatively I also would be content with a reference in which tournament the game was played.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #66 - 12/12/06 at 08:43:52
Post Tools
This variation is useful only if you accept that white can take an early draw with for exemple 14.NxN cxN 15.QxQPaddy wrote on 12/11/06 at 16:53:07:
This thread has veered way off topic (apparently since Frendo's post of 3rd December).

A new thread please!

On topic, perhaps we should be looking more closely at 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 as played Scholar and ... Charbonneau!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #65 - 12/12/06 at 01:16:49
Post Tools
Paddy wrote on 12/11/06 at 16:53:07:
This thread has veered way off topic (apparently since Frendo's post of 3rd December).

A new thread please!

On topic, perhaps we should be looking more closely at 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 as played Scholar and ... Charbonneau!


Hard to argue with u there Paddy, this Hyper Accelerated Dragon line does deserve a separate thread, and I see that Frendo has already taken the initiative in that respect, so I will respond there accordingly.

Toppers Smiley
« Last Edit: 12/12/06 at 16:16:33 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #64 - 12/12/06 at 00:56:40
Post Tools
Yes, my apologies. I really suppose I should have originally started a new thread. I now have started a new thread in the "1.e4..." section titled "1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5" which I would think is the more common move order. I've copied Dragonslayer's, Topnotch's, and my own comments regarding this position to that thread should members wish to continue the discussion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddy
God Member
*****
Offline


The truth will out!

Posts: 954
Location: Manchester
Joined: 01/10/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #63 - 12/11/06 at 16:53:07
Post Tools

This thread has veered way off topic (apparently since Frendo's post of 3rd December).

A new thread please!

On topic, perhaps we should be looking more closely at 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 Nc6 8. Qd2 O-O 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Bd4 Bxd4 13. Qxd4 Qb6 14. Na4 Qa5 15. b3 Qc7 as played Scholar and ... Charbonneau!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #62 - 12/11/06 at 16:04:45
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 12/10/06 at 01:59:55:
[Event "III Open"]
[Site "Calvia ESP"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Jones,G"]
[Black "Gonzalez Arribas,V"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2430"]
[BlackElo "2297"]
[ECO "B23"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Qa5 6. Qd4 Nf6 7. Qb4 Qc7 8. Nf3 (8.Bb5!+/= - OFWATA) Nc6 9. Qa4
Ne5 10. Be3 b6 11. Qa3 bxc5 12. Bxc5 d6?

12...Nxe4 draws immediately.  8.Bb5 doesn't seems that scary. I would simply castle and then play Nc6. If White takes on c6 then Qxc6. Black should then break with b7-b6.

Quote:
[Event "34th World Open"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Sadvakasov,D"]
[Black "Dougherty,M"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2619"]
[BlackElo "2186"]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Nf6!? 6. e5 (6.Bh6!+/- - OFWATA) Ne4 7. Bc4 Nxc5 8. Nf3 Qc7

8...Qa5 looks a lot better.
A pattern in the ratings of players when "proving" a White advantage starts to emerge. Perhaps you meant to prove that given the White pieces 100 or 500 ratingpoints really matters?
Anyway 6.Bh6 is hardly decisive. E.g. 6...Qa5 7.Qf3 Ng4!? (7...Nxe4 8.Bc4 looks dangerous.)

Quote:
[Sample Line - OFWATA]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Toppy"]
[Black "Toppy"]
[Round ""]
[Result "]
[WhiteElo]
[BlackElo]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Qa5 5. Bd2
Qxc5 6. Nd5 b6 7. Bb4 Qc6 8. Bb5 Qb7 9. Qf3!
Bxb2 10. Bc3 Bxa1

When I read this "analysis" I couldn't believe it. Giving up your Dragon bishop for the rook on a1. I mean, come on! Not even a novice Dragon player would consider this, and I'd be d..... if I would ever contemplate it in the Leningrad Dutch.
9...Nc6 10.Bc3 f6! Followed by a6, b5 and b4 pushing the bishop off the diagonal. Then e6 pushes the knight and Nge7 follows. If White anticipates this with 11.a3, Black can play 11...a6 12.Bc4 b5 13.Bb3 e6!
I am not claiming that Black is better in these lines or even completely equal, just that they are playable.
Btw. I don't have the books by Anand - sorry Khalifman - sorry whatshisname ghost writer. And I don't think much of the authority argument when it is not substantiated by more than raw moves. I might as well rebut your "analysis" by Fritz9 analysis but then I would have no case since it thinks the position is +/- Instead I prefer to discuss opinions and analysis with real people. I already have Fritz9 and I could probably manage to buy the "Anand" books if I wanted to. Don't get me wrong I think it is ok to quote from books if people ask or if you want to get more than one take on the subject. But having me give lines, analysis and plans and then replying with quotes consisting of moves and the occasional Informator symbol from a book is really below par, don't you think?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #61 - 12/10/06 at 01:59:55
Post Tools
Dragonslayer wrote on 12/09/06 at 17:50:48:
I have played the variations after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 (or the obvious transposition from the modern defence 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5!? or 1.d4 g6 2.e4 etc.) with both colours. I always thought that 4.dxc5 Bxc3+ was the most interesting choice. In case of 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5 I don't like 6...Na6 but prefer 6...b6 7.Bb4 (or 7.Be3) 7...Qc6 8.Bb5 Qb7 which is not so easy to crack. Don't believe Fritz who thinks the position is +-. It does not understand such positions and overrates White's development. The modern is a counterattacking opening and White cannot mount a decisive assault before Black pushes the pieces back and finishes development. I think White has slightly the better chances but Black's position is playable.
Btw. when Black has two options after 4.dxc5, logically one needs to show something after both 4...Qa5 and 4...Bxc3+ to put the ?! sign after 3...c5 (or 3...Bg7 in the Dragon moveorder).


Ok since you insist on being shown why the dubious desigination is justified after 3..c5?!, I will attempt to do so with the aid of a couple of illustrative games and sample analysis:


[Event "III Open"]
[Site "Calvia ESP"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Jones,G"]
[Black "Gonzalez Arribas,V"]
[Round "6"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2430"]
[BlackElo "2297"]
[ECO "B23"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 g6 3. d4 Bg7 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Qa5 6. Qd4 Nf6 7. Qb4 Qc7 8. Nf3 (8.Bb5!+/= - OFWATA) Nc6 9. Qa4
Ne5 10. Be3 b6 11. Qa3 bxc5 12. Bxc5 d6 13. Nxe5
dxc5 14. Bb5+ Kf8 15. f4 Nxe4 16. Bc6 Bb7 17. Bxe4
Bxe4 18. O-O-O Bf5 19. c4 f6 20. g4 Be6 21. Nd3
Rc8 22. g5 Bxc4 23. gxf6 exf6 24. Qc3 Qf7 25. Nf2
Kg7 26. Ne4 Bd5 27. Nd6 Qe6 28. Nxc8 Bxh1 29. Nd6
Rd8 30. Nf5+ Qxf5 31. Rxd8 Qxf4+ 32. Kb2 Qb4+ 33. Qxb4
cxb4 34. Rd7+ Kh6 35. Rxa7 f5 36. Kb3 f4 37. Kxb4
Be4 38. Kc3 g5 39. Kd2 Kh5 40. Re7 Bf5 41. a4
Kg4 42. a5 Bc8 43. Rxh7 Kf3 44. Rc7 Bh3 45. Rc3+
Kg2 46. Rxh3 g4 47. Ra3 f3 48. a6 1-0



[Event "34th World Open"]
[Site "Philadelphia USA"]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Sadvakasov,D"]
[Black "Dougherty,M"]
[Round "3"]
[Result "1-0"]
[WhiteElo "2619"]
[BlackElo "2186"]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3
Nf6!? 6. e5 (6.Bh6!+/- - OFWATA) Ne4 7. Bc4 Nxc5 8. Nf3 Qc7 9. O-O
Ne6 10. Qe2 b6 11. Nd4 Nc6 12. Nb5 Qb8 13. f4
a6 14. Nd4 Bb7 15. Be3 Qc7 16. Nb3 b5 17. Bd3
Na5 18. Nxa5 Qxa5 19. c4 bxc4 20. Bxc4 Rc8 21. Rad1
Ng7 22. Rb1 Qc7 23. Rxb7 Qxb7 24. Bxa6 Rxc2 25. Qxc2
Qxa6 26. Bc5 Qc6 27. Rc1 Ne6 28. Be3 Qxc2 29. Rxc2
O-O 30. a4 Ra8 31. Ra2 Nc7 32. a5 Nd5 33. Kf2
Ra6 34. Bd2 Kf8 35. g4 e6 36. Ra3 f5 37. gxf5
gxf5 38. Ke2 Nc7 39. Rb3 Nd5 40. Kd3 Ke7 41. Rb8
Kf7 42. Rc8 d6 43. exd6 Rxd6 44. Ke2 Ra6 45. Rb8
Kg6 46. Rb3 h5 47. Kd3 h4 48. Kd4 Kh5 49. h3
Rc6 50. Ra3 Nc7 51. Kd3 Rd6+ 52. Ke2 Ra6 53. Ra1
Nd5 54. Kf3 Nf6 55. Be3 Ne4 56. Ke2 Kg6 57. Bd4
Kf7 58. Bf2 e5 59. fxe5 Ng5 60. Bxh4 Nxh3 61. Kf3
Kg6 1-0




[Sample Line - OFWATA]
[Date "2006.??.??"]
[White "Toppy"]
[Black "Toppy"]
[Round ""]
[Result "]
[WhiteElo]
[BlackElo]
[ECO "B06"]

1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 c5 4. dxc5 Qa5 5. Bd2
Qxc5 6. Nd5 b6 7. Bb4 Qc6 8. Bb5 Qb7 9. Qf3!
Bxb2 10. Bc3 Bxa1 11. Bxa1 f6 12. e5 e6 13. exf6
Nh6 14. Qa3 Nc6 15. Nf3 Nf7 16. O-O exd5 17. Nd4
Nfe5 18. Re1 Kd8 19. Rxe5 Nxe5 20. Qe7+ Kc7 21. Ne6+
Kb8 22. Qd6+ Qc7 23. Qxc7# 1-0

The above lines I believe are the most testing for black to meet, and as far as I can tell he faces a very unpleasant defensive task.

Toppylov Smiley




« Last Edit: 12/10/06 at 04:28:36 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #60 - 12/09/06 at 17:50:48
Post Tools
I have played the variations after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 (or the obvious transposition from the modern defence 1.e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5!? or 1.d4 g6 2.e4 etc.) with both colours. I always thought that 4.dxc5 Bxc3+ was the most interesting choice. In case of 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5 I don't like 6...Na6 but prefer 6...b6 7.Bb4 (or 7.Be3) 7...Qc6 8.Bb5 Qb7 which is not so easy to crack. Don't believe Fritz who thinks the position is +-. It does not understand such positions and overrates White's development. The modern is a counterattacking opening and White cannot mount a decisive assault before Black pushes the pieces back and finishes development. I think White has slightly the better chances but Black's position is playable.
Btw. when Black has two options after 4.dxc5, logically one needs to show something after both 4...Qa5 and 4...Bxc3+ to put the ?! sign after 3...c5 (or 3...Bg7 in the Dragon moveorder).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #59 - 12/09/06 at 03:24:59
Post Tools
I had thought Black was OK, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5!, because of some old analysis I'd seen of 6...Na6 7.Bc3 Kf8!?.  However, looking through a database, it seems that 7.Bc3 isn't the strongest move and Black's position is rather unpleasant.  Probably, Black should avoid this variation and try one of the other options (3...cxd4 or 3...Bg7 4.dxc5 Bxc3+) if he wishes to meet 2.Nc3 with g6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #58 - 12/09/06 at 02:24:11
Post Tools
Quote:
Also after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 (4...Bxc3+ looks like a decent try to unbalance the position) 5.Bd2 Qxd5 6.Nd5 is a known line that is fine for Black if he knows what he's doing.

All in all I agree that 2...g6 is a very playable option after either 2.Nf3 or 2.Nc3 and one that White isn't likely to be as well prepared for.



I am not sure how fine Black's game is after the following sequence 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 5.Bd2 Qxc5 6.Nd5! as his position looks very unpleasant to me. In fact the simple and strong 4.dxc5! is why many players that employ the Modern defence avoid the move order 1e4 g6 2.d4 Bg7 3.Nc3 c5?! and voila we have arrived at the same tabiya via transposition.

I do agree though that move order tricks and finesses are a major concern for many Sicilian players, but nevertheless to be forewarned is to be forearmed and every move order trick designed to get a Sicilian player out of his pet system has drawbacks of its own, one simply has to make the most of them.

Toppers Smiley
« Last Edit: 12/10/06 at 00:55:33 by TopNotch »  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #57 - 12/09/06 at 01:49:57
Post Tools
I suppose I've lead us a little off topic but these move order issues can be important to Dragon players so it doesn't bother me much.

In variation "a" after 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Qa4 d6 7.e5 dxe5 8.Nxe5 Bd7 (Fritz suggested 8...Qd4!?) 9.Nxd7 Qxd7 10.Bb5 Bg7 11.Be3 0-0 12.Rd1 Qc8 13.Bxc6 bxc6, Rowson has written, "In this case White does seem to a slight edge...".  Doesn't look terribly frightening though.

In variation "b" White does have the option of 8.fxe7 Qxe7+ 9.Qe3 Nb4 10.Kd1 which also may give him a slight edge, although as usual I'm not really sure.

In variation "c" 6.Qa4 is stupid with Nc3 instead of Nf3 so your 6.Qf4 looks right and after 6...Nh5 then maybe 6.Qe4 with a position I'm not sure about (surprise).  Perhaps you've looked into enough to know Black is OK here.

Also after 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 3.d4 Bg7 4.dxc5 Qa5 (4...Bxc3+ looks like a decent try to unbalance the position) 5.Bd2 Qxd5 6.Nd5 is a known line that is fine for Black if he knows what he's doing.

All in all I agree that 2...g6 is a very playable option after either 2.Nf3 or 2.Nc3 and one that White isn't likely to be as well prepared for. 



  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #56 - 12/08/06 at 22:40:58
Post Tools
Yes the Benoni with 4.d5 is annoying and the spoilers always choose this. Still I think Black is ok even if White has square c4 for a knight.
4.dc5 is better for Black than in the variations after 2.Nf3, since the knight on c3 blocks White from irritating exchanges on this square. 4...Qa5 or 4...Bxc3+ should both be ok.
4.Qxd4 Nf6 and now:
a) 5.Nf3 transposes to the line 2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3. After 5...Nc6 6.Qa4 d6 7.e5 dxe5 8.Nxe5 I think 8...Bd7 solves Black's problems.

b)5.Bb5 can be met by 5...a6 just as in the similar line with Nf3 (2.Nf3 g6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Bb5 a6! 6.e5 axb5 7.exf6 Nc6 8.Q). After 6.e5 axb5 7.exf6 Nc6 8.Q(anywhere) Black would (in case of Nf3 in lieu of Nc3) play b5-b4 to prevent the knight from developing. Here the knight is already out but Black will still play b4 which hits the knight and stiffles White's queenside.

c) This leaves 5.e5 which is better now with the knight on c3 preventing Black's usual Nf6-d5-c7 maneuver. So Black has to go for 5...Nc6 6.Qf4 Nh5. After 6.Qa4? I don't see much wrong with 6...Nxe5.

I totally agree that it is ultimately a matter of choice which anti-Sicilian one prefers to play against, but don't believe the people who only offers opinions and no variations and then give sweeping statements about the playability of 2.Nf3/Nc3 g6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #55 - 12/08/06 at 03:15:39
Post Tools
Yeah, after I posted that I remembered that 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6 might be a better way to achieve the Dragadorf without allowing the GPA with 2...d6, however I still have a few concerns.  I'm not Black has nothing to fear from 3.d4 cxd4 (3...Bg7 is certainly playable but you also have to be comfortable with the Benoni after 4.d5 and know how to handle 4.dxc5) 4.Qxd4 Nf6 5.Bb5, 5.e5 Nc6 6.Qa4 Ng8 7.Qe4 or 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.Qa4.  All of these variations have their sting and I'm not sure I wouldn't rather just play 2...d6 if my intention was to play the
Dragadorf.  I suppose it may come down to a matter of taste.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #54 - 12/06/06 at 14:32:37
Post Tools
Quote:
The only possible practical problem I can think of is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3, since Black usually delays moving his queen-knight or develops it to d7.  Black might have to play like Nadjorf players with 2...d6 or be comfortable with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5.  Then again I think there is an thread here on the forum that argues that Black has good alternatives in the Accelerated Dragon to transposing to the main-line Dragon.(?)


In case of 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 d6 Black forfeits the right to play ...e6 and ...d5 against a White setup with f2-f4.
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 g6(!) keeps Black's options open. White has eschewed his chances for a bind, while ...g6 is a good setup against the closed Sicilian, KIA or Grand Prix attack (in case of 3.g3, 3.d3 or 3.f4). 3.d4 cxd4 (or 3...Bg7!?) 4.Qxd4 Nf6 is nothing to fear.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #53 - 12/03/06 at 22:03:26
Post Tools
If you want good winning chances with Black against 1.e4 right now I'd recommend the Dragadorf.  I imagine it still has a lot of surprise value at club value and Black so far has scored very well when White has left out Bc4 (and he's done quite well against Bc4 methods too!).  There even seems to be a few valid methods of playing the defence (delayed castling, Nbd7 before b5, early ...h5).

The only possible practical problem I can think of is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3, since Black usually delays moving his queen-knight or develops it to d7.  Black might have to play like Nadjorf players with 2...d6 or be comfortable with 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.Nf3 e5.  Then again I think there is an thread here on the forum that argues that Black has good alternatives in the Accelerated Dragon to transposing to the main-line Dragon.(?)
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #52 - 12/01/06 at 17:34:45
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 12/01/06 at 10:44:56:
For me playing the Dragon is connected with taking a lot of risks and must be rewarded with an interesting game and chances to win. But against 9.000 i liked very much to play 9.000 Bd7 but i had to trust Golubev analysis it's almost +- after good play by white, so i was just wandering if someone had new ideas for Black in the d5 line. Here Eric Moscow told than an early Rb8 was ok for Black but chalenged with Fritz variations the theorical discution stopped here...


Well, I'll let this topic drop after this post, but the 9...Bd7 and 14...Rb8 lines aren't really the ones which come to mind when I think of the mainline theory for 9.0-0-0.  If you are really looking for something off-beat to play, 8...Bd7 (suggested by Martin and dicussed elsewhere) may deserve a look -- I have no idea what the state of play is in that line, but I think there are some threads you can search for here on the topic.

But I'm not sure why you are surprised to see that when Black is "taking a lot of risks" his play is sometimes refuted.  Moreover, if you want to play a true sideline, you probably have to improve upon published analysis -- that's usually the point: if everyone thought the line was good for Black, it wouldn't be so rare.

Best of luck.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #51 - 12/01/06 at 13:51:26
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 12/01/06 at 10:44:56:
Dearing's book (not noticed for his pessimism about his beloved opening, even if now he plays the Modern !)


Isn't the Modern just the Hyper-Hyper-Accelerated Dragon  Wink
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #50 - 12/01/06 at 10:44:56
Post Tools
You are right, as a Najdorf and Modern player for 20 years and a recent Dragon convert i am sometimes pessimist about black's chances in this new opening for me. For me playing the Dragon is connected with taking a lot of risks and must be rewarded with an interesting game and chances to win. But against 9.000 i liked very much to play 9.000 Bd7 but i had to trust Golubev analysis it's almost +- after good play by white, so i was just wandering if someone had new ideas for Black in the d5 line. Here Eric Moscow told than an early Rb8 was ok for Black but chalenged with Fritz variations the theorical discution stopped here... In the Golubev game, if you look in Dearing's book (not noticed for his pessimism about his beloved opening, even if now he plays the Modern !) he says "19.Qf2 Nf4 is also bad for Black 20.BxB NxB 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rad8 23.QxQb6! axQ 24.Be7! +/ Psakhis-Komljenovic Andorra 1994.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #49 - 12/01/06 at 04:12:14
Post Tools
One expects a book for White to end its lines with +=.

Many suggestions have been made, and some of these "+=" positions are sufficiently complex that an assessment like that has little meaning beyond personal preference -- and if one doesn't want to play the positions which result from 9.0-0-0, perhaps a change of repertoire is in order.  MNb will suggest the accelerated dragon, Paris will complain about the bind, I will mention that I think Black is fine etc.  (Or, one can work out some new lines which one does find satisfactory.)

At the end of the day, it seems like this is what is troubling Paris -- it is not that Black lacks continuations, simply continuations which he finds suitable.

I don't have the new edition, and so if Golubev has some new lines which refute Black's traditional play, that is fine -- post what you think is problematic, and maybe someone who plays that line will have an answer.  But I suspect that this isn't really the case.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #48 - 11/30/06 at 18:21:08
Post Tools
Perhaps this game should make you think instead of repeating the same statement over and over again:

[Event "ROM-chT div-A"]
[Site "Predeal"]
[Date "2006.11.04"]
[Round "7"]
[White "Delchev,Aleksander"]
[Black "Golubev,Mihail"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B76"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0
9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Re8 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7
17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Nf4 20.Bxe6 Nxe6 21.Bd6 Qb6 22.Rd2 Rd7 23.c3 Rad8 24.Rhd1 Qxf2
25.Rxf2 f5 26.gxf6 Bf8 27.Rfd2 Bh6 1/2

By the way, in the end position I think black is better!
Do you still play the dragon, paris, or why do you whine every time how bad it is and that white is better? If you want to play it you need some confidence!  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #47 - 11/30/06 at 09:19:54
Post Tools
"Experts against the Sicilian" 2nd version is out and Black has still not found a attractive way of meeting 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.000 ! += Golubev ... Any new ideas ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #46 - 10/22/06 at 17:01:36
Post Tools
Today I looked at this game little closer and Fritz 9 indicates that 21 __ Rxd3 22 cxd3 Qd4 gives black good play for the exchange (according to Fritz 9). I also noticed that 20 __ Rad8 is a novelty since is is not mentioned in Fritz 9 opening book.
But that novelty is not a good one since white can improve earlyer and 21 h5 seems to give white a large advantage.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #45 - 10/21/06 at 19:43:47
Post Tools
If black wants to play the Nxc3 variation he needs to improve on this game played today.
Since I play e5 instead of Nxc3 I havent analysed this game.
I am not sure if the rating is swedish rating or ELO rating, I took is from a live broadcast site.

[Event "Elitserien 06/07"]
[Site "Stockholm"]
[Date "2006.10.21"]
[White "GM Tom Wedberg, WASA SK."]
[Black "IM Rickard Winsnes, SS MANHEM."]
[Result "1-0"]
[ECO "B76"]
[WhiteElo "2501"]
[BlackElo "2394"]
[PlyCount "83"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Bh6+ 14. Be3 Bxe3+ 15. Qxe3 Qb6 16. Qxe7 Be6 17. Bd3 Bxa2 18.
h4 Rfe8 19. Qf6 Qe3+ 20. Rd2 Rad8 21. Qg5 Qxg5 22. hxg5 Bd5 23. Rdd1 Re5 24. f4
Re3 25. Bc4 Rg3 26. Bxd5 cxd5 27. Rd2 Rc8 28. Rxd5 Rxg2 29. Rd2 Rxd2 30. Kxd2
Kg7 31. b3 Rc7 32. c4 f6 33. Kc3 fxg5 34. fxg5 Rc5 35. b4 Rxg5 36. Ra1 Rg3+ 37.
Kd4 h5 38. Rxa7+ Kf6 39. Rh7 Rb3 40. Kc5 Kg5 41. b5 h4 42. b6 1-0

  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #44 - 09/11/06 at 16:15:11
Post Tools
About Rxd1 you are right, it is a draw. I didnt analyse long (never even checked that move) and Fritz indicated that there was a win by force but it was not. and yes Bxg6 looks stronger (didt look at this etiher).
« Last Edit: 09/11/06 at 20:05:24 by bragesjo »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Alkelele
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 12
Joined: 08/29/06
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #43 - 09/11/06 at 13:36:49
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 09/10/06 at 10:58:46:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Bh6+ 14. Be3 Bxe3+ 15. Qxe3 Qb6 16. Qxe7 Be6 17. Qa3 Rad8 18.
Bd3 Rd5 19. Rhe1 Ra5 20. Qc3 Rxa2 21. b3 Ra5 22. Kb2 {Golubev and Rogozenko
thinks that white has the better endning, no more mores are given.} Rb8 {
then the thematical} 23. Rxe6 fxe6 24. Bc4 Rd5 25. Qe1 Kf7 26. Bxd5 cxd5 27.
Qe5 {Fritz thinks the position is 0.00 but that is Fritz} Rc8 28. Rd4


Position after 22. Kb2.

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=5rk1/p4p1p/1qp1b1p1/r7/8/...

In your line, after 22... Rb8 23.Rxe6 fxe6 24. Bc4 Rd5 25.Qe1, 25... Rxd1 seems to draw on the spot. Instead I think white can get some edge with either 25.Bxd5 cxd5 26.h4 or 25.Re1 Re8 26.Bxd5 (26.Re4) 26... cxd5 27.h4 Qf2 28. Ra1.

Even better, instead of 24.Bc4, may be 24.Bxg6 Qc7 (24... Rd5 25.Bd3) 25.Be4 c5 26. Rd5 {better than 26.Qf6 which draws in the end when white loses the queenside pawns} 26... Qg7 (26... h6 27.Re5 Qg7 28.Bd3) 27.Qxg7 (27.Re5) 27... Kxg7 28.Rg5.

parisestmagique wrote on 09/11/06 at 10:14:20:
Yes, it's not easy, Black has to be careful with this threat to sacrifice on e6. Maybe after 22.Kb2 Rc5 holds after 23.Qf6 Bd5 24.Rd2 Ra5 25.Rde2 Be6 26.RxBe6 fxR 27.Qxe6+ Kh8.


I suspect white can get an edge with instead 24.Be4 or 24.Re2.

In general, I think black has three long term thematic problems in the position after 22.Kb2: The weak pawn on the a-file, the risk of Rxe6 when good, and white kingside expansion with h4-h5, inducing an extra weakness in black's camp. The question is if white can suppress black's counterplay against the white king to take advantage of this in the long term, and avoid exhanges that makes the position drawish.

I think the right way for black to go is placing the a5 rook on d5, which kind of forces matters. Question is if 22... Rc5 23.Qf6 should be inserted. My analysis suggest that 22...Rd5 is OK, but 22... Rc5 should also suffer:

22... Rc5 23.Qf6 Rd5 {instead of 23... Bd5} 24.Rxe6 (24.h4 c5 {may be a tiny bit better for white}) 24... fxe6 25.Qxe6+ Kh8 26.Bc4 Ra5 27.f4 Qc5 28.g4 g5 29.Rd7 gxf4 30.Rxh7+ Kxh7 31.Bd3+ Rf5 32.Bxf5+ Kg7, and anything but a draw seems unlikely.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #42 - 09/11/06 at 10:14:20
Post Tools
Yes, it's not easy, Black has to be careful with this threat to sacrifice on e6. Maybe after 22.Kb2 Rc5 holds after 23.Qf6 Bd5 24.Rd2 Ra5 25.Rde2 Be6 26.RxBe6 fxR 27.Qxe6+ Kh8.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #41 - 09/10/06 at 10:58:46
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 09/08/06 at 08:32:17:
Does someone knows what Golubev or other experts says about this line ? it looks very solid even if i presume that Black will not win a lot of games with it but has very good chance to hold :
6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxN 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 BxB+ 15.QxB Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 Rad8 18.Bd3 Rd5 19.Rhe1 Ra5 20.Qc3 Rxa2 21.b3 Ra5 =


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 Nxc3 13. Qxc3 Bh6+ 14. Be3 Bxe3+ 15. Qxe3 Qb6 16. Qxe7 Be6 17. Qa3 Rad8 18.
Bd3 Rd5 19. Rhe1 Ra5 20. Qc3 Rxa2 21. b3 Ra5 22. Kb2 {Golubev and Rogozenko
thinks that white has the better endning, no more mores are given.} Rb8 {
then the thematical} 23. Rxe6 fxe6 24. Bc4 Rd5 25. Qe1 Kf7 26. Bxd5 cxd5 27.
Qe5 {Fritz thinks the position is 0.00 but that is Fritz} Rc8 28. Rd4

  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Alkelele
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 12
Joined: 08/29/06
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #40 - 09/08/06 at 21:35:52
Post Tools
parisestmagique wrote on 09/08/06 at 08:32:17:
Does someone knows what Golubev or other experts says about this line ? it looks very solid even if i presume that Black will not win a lot of games with it but has very good chance to hold :
6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxN 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 BxB+ 15.QxB Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 Rad8 18.Bd3 Rd5 19.Rhe1 Ra5 20.Qc3 Rxa2 21.b3 Ra5 =


I agree, it looks interesting and overall black does not seem to be any worse than in the lines after 12 Nxd5 exd5 13 Qxd5 etc.

I agree with your line up to 17 Qa3. Black should be quite OK against other white moves at move 17. Diagram after 17 Qa3:

http://www.france-echecs.com/diagramme/imgboard.phpfen=r4rk1/p4p1p/1qp1b1p1/8/8/...

After 17...Rad8, I suggest here two possible improvements for white in your line:

18.Bd3 Rd5 19.b3 Rfd8 20.Rde1 c5 21.Bc4 Rd2 22.Bxe6 fxe6 23.g3

18.Re1 Rd5 19.Bc4 Ra5 20.Qc3 Bxc4 21.Qxc4 Rb8 22.b3 Rxa2 23.Re7 Rf8 24.Qc3

With perhaps a slight advantage for white in both lines.

Alternatively, black can also try 17...Rfd8. In any case, white does not have much.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #39 - 09/08/06 at 08:32:17
Post Tools
Does someone knows what Golubev or other experts says about this line ? it looks very solid even if i presume that Black will not win a lot of games with it but has very good chance to hold :
6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 Nc6 8.Qd2 0-0 9.0-0-0 d5 10.exd Nxd5 11.Nxc6 bxN 12.Bd4 Nxc3 13.Qxc3 Bh6+ 14.Be3 BxB+ 15.QxB Qb6 16.Qxe7 Be6 17.Qa3 Rad8 18.Bd3 Rd5 19.Rhe1 Ra5 20.Qc3 Rxa2 21.b3 Ra5 =
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #38 - 08/03/06 at 13:23:00
Post Tools
Perhaps Qf4+ first is better since it rules out Qd2

EDIT I missed that white can play Qf5 after Rh1 h4 so instead of h4 Qe3 and the position is equal.

EDIT2 I also missed Qf5 directly after gxh5 when blacks best appear to be Qxf5 Bxf5 e6 Be4 Rc8 Rh1 Rc5!
« Last Edit: 08/04/06 at 09:22:29 by bragesjo »  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #37 - 08/03/06 at 12:03:42
Post Tools
Dearings book and Rogozenkos disc recomends the last line.
15 b3 seems like a rare move, not many games on that line on Rogozenkos disc.

h5 seems like an improvement since Fritz thinks that black is better and didnt have to force a draw in that game.
White gets a smal advantage after 24 h5. I thinks that black best move is Rxh5 followed by Qf4+.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 d6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. d4 cxd4 5. Nxd4 g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2
Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5
Qb7 15. b3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rac8 $1 17. Qa5 Rc3 18. Bxf5 Rxe3 19. Be4 Qb8 20. g3 Qc8
21. g4 Re2 22. h4 Qb8 23. g5 Rh2 24. h5 Rxh5 25. Rxh5 Qf4+ 26. Kb1 (26. Qd2 Qe5
27. c4 (27. Qd5 Qb2+ 28. Kd2 gxh5 29. Qf5 Rd8+ 30. Ke2 Rxd1 31. Kxd1 Qd4+ 32.
Ke2 Qe5 {and white is slightly better}) 27... gxh5 28. Re1 (28. Bd3 a5 29. f4
Qa1+ 30. Bb1 Rc8 31. Qc2 a4 32. bxa4 Kf8) 28... Qc7 29. f4 Rd8 {is equal})
26... gxh5 27. Rh1 (27. c3 e6 28. a3 (28. Rd8 {is bad} h4) 28... Qe3 {is equal}
) (27. Rc1 e6 28. Qxa7 Qxg5 29. Qc7 h4 {is equal}) 27... h4 28. Qd5 h6 29. gxh6
Qxh6 {is equal} *
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Dragonslayer
Full Member
***
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 248
Location: Odense
Joined: 06/13/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #36 - 08/02/06 at 21:44:47
Post Tools
bragesjo wrote on 08/02/06 at 20:44:44:
Accepting the pawn is dangerous. Black gets a powerfully attack. Sample line
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. b3 Qc6 18. Bxf5
Qc3 is good for black

On the Internet I have often faced this line as black
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. c3 Bxc3 *


I agree that accepting the pawn is dangerous but I have had some success with the move 15.b3:
15...Bf5 16.Bd3 Rfc8 17.Qa5! The queen is better placed here 17...Bxd3? 18.Rxd3 Qc6 19.c4 Qf6 20.Bd4 Qf4+ 21.Qd2 and White won in Agermose Jensen-B.Warncke, Denmark 2003

Agermose Jensen-Klausen, Denmark 2004 saw the same moves up till 17...Qc6 18.Bxf5 gxf5 19.c4 Qf6 20.Bd4 Qg5+ 21.Kb1 Bxd4 22.Rxd4 Qxg2 23.Qe1 Kf8 24.Rg1 Qxh2 and now 25.Rd7! as in Hennings-Lee, Sweden 1966 would have decided instantly.

A rapid game of mine went instead 20...e5 21.Bb2 Rc6 22.Rhe1 with a big plus for White.

I also had 17...Rc3?! 18.Bxf5 Rxe3 19.Be4 winning the exchange (that's why some authors recommend 16...Rac8) in a rapid game. The position after 19...Rxe4 20.fxe4 Qxe4 might not be so easy to win as Black has counterplay on the a1-h8 diagonal. The simplest solution looks like 21.Rhe1 Qxg2 22.Qd5.

Another rapid game went 17...Bc3 18.Qb5! Qc7 19.Bxf5 a6 20.Qd7 (20.Qxc5 was even better) 20...Qa5 21.Kb1 Qxf5 22.Qxf5 gxf5 23.Rd7 and White was better.

Agermose Jensen-Andersen, Denmark 2004 went 16...Rac8 17.Qa5 Qc6?! 18.Bxf5 Qf6? 19.Bxc8+- 1-0 in 26.
17...Bc3 is met by 18.Qb5 while 17...Rc3! 18.Bxf5 Rxe3 19.Bd4 Qb8 20.g3 Qc8 21.g4! Re2 22.h4 Qb8 23.g5 (Here the preparatory 23.Kb1!? is also interesting) 23...Rh2 Psakhis-David, Andorra 1996. And now instead of 24.Rxh2 Qxh2 which quickly drew, why not simply play 24.h5 ?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #35 - 08/02/06 at 20:44:44
Post Tools
About Golubevs sacrifice the position is unclear. Everything can happen in that line. Some players says that black has compensation, other claims that white is winning. The line has been played as black by several strong players such as Ivanchuk, maybee because it is easier to play black then to play white in this position. See Adams-Ivanchuk Dortmund 1998. White has more material and blacks compensation is not clear therefore Rb8 is a more modern way of handling the position. The idea whit Rb8 is to play e5 when white must take and open the b file for blacks rook whit good compensation.

Nunns Qe1 is playable but not the most critical. 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. Qe1 e5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
exd5 Nxd5 13. Bc4 Be6 14. Ne4 Qc7 15. Bc5 Rfd8 16. Qh4 h6 is equal.

Accepting the pawn is dangerous. Black gets a powerfully attack. Sample line
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. b3 Qc6 18. Bxf5
Qc3 is good for black

On the Internet I have often faced this line as black
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Nxd5 cxd5 13. Qxd5 Qc7 14. Qc5 Qb7 15. Qa3 Bf5 16. Bd3 Rab8 17. c3 Bxc3 *

The critical line recommended by Gloubev for white in Experts vs the Sicilian is
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 *

Khalifman says that 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 * is a complicated line when the player whit the most experience of this kind of position has the advantage.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4764
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #34 - 08/02/06 at 19:32:24
Post Tools
zenken wrote on 08/02/06 at 18:42:44:
Bragesco,


Thx for letting me know the critical line against 9.0-0-0 d5 in your previous post !

I am not clear why in the Milov line you mention where Black sac's his queen how Black gets a demonstrable advantage ? Any evidence ?

Also, I always understood that in Nunn's line 10.Qe1 e5 white could still play 11.Nxc6 surely ? Is this bad for White ?

Also, I have never really understood why White can't accept the pawn sacrifice : 9...d5 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.exd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 !
surely this must be the line to test Black's 9...d5 ?


I would appreciate someone putting me right !

zenken Sad


Well, after 9...d5, accepting the pawn is quite playable, but declining is considered a better try for advantage.  I think you could get a good picture of this by looking in e.g. (small) ECO, NCO or MCO.  I sometimes wonder if anyone uses such books for basic reference any more.   
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zenken
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 8
Joined: 07/23/06
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #33 - 08/02/06 at 18:42:44
Post Tools
Bragesco,


Thx for letting me know the critical line against 9.0-0-0 d5 in your previous post !

I am not clear why in the Milov line you mention where Black sac's his queen how Black gets a demonstrable advantage ? Any evidence ?

Also, I always understood that in Nunn's line 10.Qe1 e5 white could still play 11.Nxc6 surely ? Is this bad for White ?

Also, I have never really understood why White can't accept the pawn sacrifice : 9...d5 10.Nxc6 bxc6 11.exd5 cxd5 12.Nxd5 !
surely this must be the line to test Black's 9...d5 ?


I would appreciate someone putting me right !

zenken Sad
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1752
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #32 - 08/02/06 at 08:43:46
Post Tools
Milovs Kb1 can be meet by either Golubevs queen sacrife Nxd4 11. e5 Nf5 12. exf6
Bxf6 13. Nxd5 Qxd5 14. Qxd5 Nxe3 15. Qd2 Nxd1 16. Qxd1 Be6 or simply Rb8.

Nunns old suggestion Qe1 simply e5

The critical test to d5 is this line 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 *





  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #31 - 08/02/06 at 01:07:31
Post Tools
zenken wrote on 08/01/06 at 16:00:18:
I am new to this site and no expert on the Dragon but I think 9.0-0-0 seems crushing to me.

(a) In the line 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Re8 14.h5! seems to win : 14...Nxh5 15.Bxg7 Kxg7
16.g4 Nf6 17.Qh6+ Kg8 18.g5 Nh5 19.Rxh5! gxh5 20.Nd5! Bxd5 21.exd5! and black struggled on
with 21...Rc5 22.Bd3 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.Bxh7+ Kf7 25.Qg6+ Ke7 26.Qg7+ Kd8 27.Bf5 1-0
(Zenken - Stojko ICC blitz 2006)

Am I missing something ? Is there a better move than 11...Re8 ?

(b) Of course, if Black decides to play 9...d5 it is a different story but White has the happy choice between
Milov's 10.Kb1 or 10.Qe1 both of which seem to leave Black in difficulty.

I am no Dragon expert but I think the Dragon is busted !


Well, I'm not sure exactly what you have in mind with line (a) since you omitted moves 12 and 13, but when I played the line, I favored 11...Qc7.  Of course, I think that the entire idea of 9...Nxd4/10...Be6 has been shown to be lacking, as the above posts, and other threads, suggest.

Against 9...d5 it would seem to me that White is very far from winning in either of the lines that you mentioned.  At the very least, White's edge is slight and certainly a long-term advantage is not proven.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
zenken
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 8
Joined: 07/23/06
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #30 - 08/01/06 at 16:00:18
Post Tools
To all Dragon lovers,

I am new to this site and no expert on the Dragon but I think 9.0-0-0 seems crushing to me.

(a) In the line 9...Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Kb1 Re8 14.h5! seems to win : 14...Nxh5 15.Bxg7 Kxg7
16.g4 Nf6 17.Qh6+ Kg8 18.g5 Nh5 19.Rxh5! gxh5 20.Nd5! Bxd5 21.exd5! and black struggled on
with 21...Rc5 22.Bd3 f5 23.exf6 gxf6 24.Bxh7+ Kf7 25.Qg6+ Ke7 26.Qg7+ Kd8 27.Bf5 1-0
(Zenken - Stojko ICC blitz 2006)

Am I missing something ? Is there a better move than 11...Re8 ?

(b) Of course, if Black decides to play 9...d5 it is a different story but White has the happy choice between
Milov's 10.Kb1 or 10.Qe1 both of which seem to leave Black in difficulty.

I am no Dragon expert but I think the Dragon is busted !

Anyone care to comment, I would be happy to debate my assessment with others !

zenken Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dragan Glas
Senior Member
****
Offline


"If I, like Solomon, ...
could have my wish -
"

Posts: 424
Location: Ireland
Joined: 06/25/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #29 - 07/01/06 at 09:19:29
Post Tools
Greetings,

For a somewhat different take on the 9. 000, d5; line - an opponent in one of my games played an idea of Dvoiris - 10. Qe1!? and lost.

See http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151693701

FightingDragon
I've taken a look at the line you're talking about with 19. c3 - it certainly looks as if Black's ended up in a position where he needs a few tempi to sort himself out!

Apart from 19..., Bh6; I've glanced at 19 ..., a5; 19 ..., Rb7; 19 ..., Rfe8; and 19 ..., Rfd8;

None of them work - they're all a couple of steps behind White, who ends up winning a pawn during exchanges, which should be enough to win a "technical" ending - if that.

Kindest regards,

James
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #28 - 06/21/06 at 12:11:44
Post Tools
One could argue that the pawn doesn't make it's presence felt in such a complicated position.
But at some point there will be exchanges, so that in the end the pawn is a pawn.  Roll Eyes
Come on, Eric, enlighten us about black's chances!  Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #27 - 06/21/06 at 08:31:57
Post Tools
There is also the problem 16.BxRf8 !? (De Firmian - Ward 2003 soon 1-0) but this is another question !
After 16.Ng5 e4 17.Bb3 Qf6 18.3 Bh6 19.h4 Rfe8 20.Bxa7 for exemple Ra8 21.Bd4 Qe7 22.f4 white is solid as a rock with a extra pawn.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #26 - 06/21/06 at 08:07:08
Post Tools
If you read my earlier post, you will see that I already suggested 19.h4.
So let's continue at that stage!  Cool
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
rooksway18
Junior Member
**
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 94
Location: USA
Joined: 12/18/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #25 - 06/21/06 at 05:44:15
Post Tools
If I understood an earlier post, Dr. Moscow already mention that after 18.c3 he has played 18...Bh6.  Perhaps a move or some analysis starting with white's 19th move will spark more sharing of concrete variations.  Here are the moves again:

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4: 4.Nd4 Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.ed5 Nd5 11.Nc6 bc6 12.Bd4 e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Rb8 15.Bc4 f5 16.Ng5 e4 17.Bb3 Qf6 18.c3 Bh6

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #24 - 06/20/06 at 07:50:53
Post Tools
Has anyone already looked closer at my analysis in the main variation?
TopNotch calls them "tedious drawing lines", but in my opinion black should be content with a draw against a strong player. If we were to prove that black is really equal, this would be a great success for black!

If you want to beat lower rated players, you can play one of the objectively worse variations and hope they don't know theory well enough to expose the drawbacks. In that respect, I think 9. ... Bd7 and 9. ... Nd4: have a lot of winning potential.

@Eric: I set up your idea with 9. ... Nd4: 10.Bd4: Be6 11.Kb1 a5?! on the board and I think it gives black absolutely nothing. Firstly, white can play a4, what is black to do then, with b5 and b6 under white's grip? I think he is clearly worse there. And even if white allows black to play a4 (and stops the pawn with a3), then after Qa5 there is no threat on a2 by the queen.
I think it isn't an achievement by itself to have the queen on a5!
About Karlsson's line I can't say much, but it looks somehow unhealthy. But it could be playable.
And will you present your thougts on the Rb8 line??
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
eric_moskow
Junior Member
**
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 70
Location: usa
Joined: 05/04/05
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #23 - 06/19/06 at 08:44:50
Post Tools
i forgot sorry will respond tonight my bad
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 471
Location: paris
Joined: 01/24/06
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #22 - 06/19/06 at 07:47:08
Post Tools
So Mister Moscow, you stop the game where black answers 9.000! with d5, it sounds like the Rb8 line given by Martin and you very playable is in fact very difficult for black...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
eric_moskow
Junior Member
**
Offline


I love ChessPublishing.com!

Posts: 70
Location: usa
Joined: 05/04/05
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #21 - 06/18/06 at 15:18:42
Post Tools
ok now for a few hints heres a couple of ideas. 1.e4c5 2nf3 d6 3d4cd 4nd4 nf6 5nc3 g6 6be3 bg7 7f3 nc6 8.qd2 00 9000 nd4 10bd4 be6 11.kb1 a5 with the idea of a4 then qa5 omitting qc7 ie rook defends queen call it chinese type play against 000 next idea is karlsons early h5 but use h4 then rh5 to transfer the rook to queenside either line makes for interesting ideas also my d5 has not failed me of late. my score is good against 000 as for tns i lost a tempo to tn romaninshen in the dragon, that was my work with tony from years gone by waited 30 years to drop that bomb. unfortunately im hold out on u guys but i have given u the second and third choices, the big novelty will come out in a category 10 in sofia later this summer.or in norway in sept, kulouts chickened out and tregubov never happended so im waiting come on 000 genius lets give it a go otb, becerra got a little bit of the treatment as we saw. chris how u doin.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2211
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #20 - 06/14/06 at 22:08:38
Post Tools
FightingDragon wrote on 06/14/06 at 16:36:33:
I've analysed the position a bit an came to the following variation against 25.Kb1:
25.Kb1 a5 26.Ba3 Rd2: 27.Rd2: Rd2: 28.Nd2: Qd5 with unclear play.
And against 25.b3 Nd4 26.c3 what about the exchange sacrifice 26. ... Rd6: 27.Nd6: Rd6: 28.cd4: ed4:
It seems that black has adequate compensation (at least he is a pawn up and has the safer king).

By the way, nice to see TopNotch back in the forum!
Did you have any dragon games in Torino?


Actually I did, and am very pleased to report that the Chinese Dragon is alive and very well.

In fact I think overall the Dragon fared quite well in Turin....perhaps the fast time control helped.

Regarding 9.0-0-0 I agree it continues to be a nuisance for ambitious Black players, but theoretically I think black is fine at the moment in the 9...d5 lines, nevertheless the search continues for ways to avoid those tedious drawing lines u mentioned. Sadly forced draws seem to plague all ultra sharp openings, its the nature of the beast.

I suppose if u need to play for a win at all costs the Hippo is your best bet....and no I am not joking....ok, maybe just a little  Tongue

Perhaps Eric will eventually get around to revealing some sparkling and promising new avenue for black after 9.0-0-0, in the meantime posters could check the Olympiad games to see if there were any interesting developments.

Should all else fail there is also the Dragadorf to consider, which on current evidence appears to be quite a promising avenue for black and could render the whole 9.0-0-0 vs 9.Bc4 argument moot. Time will tell.

Till next time fellow Dragonneers, keep the flame burning brightly.

Toppers  Smiley

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #19 - 06/14/06 at 16:36:33
Post Tools
I've analysed the position a bit an came to the following variation against 25.Kb1:
25.Kb1 a5 26.Ba3 Rd2: 27.Rd2: Rd2: 28.Nd2: Qd5 with unclear play.
And against 25.b3 Nd4 26.c3 what about the exchange sacrifice 26. ... Rd6: 27.Nd6: Rd6: 28.cd4: ed4:
It seems that black has adequate compensation (at least he is a pawn up and has the safer king).

By the way, nice to see TopNotch back in the forum!
Did you have any dragon games in Torino?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #18 - 05/29/06 at 22:39:08
Post Tools
As i explained ...Qb5 threatens directly a5 which should (in another cqase) be answered by a4, but now this is not an option. So that's why i think white should play b3.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #17 - 05/29/06 at 19:57:17
Post Tools
Ok, let's get back to serious discussion!
What does black's position look like in the absolute main variation (the variation Bragesjo and Ametanoitos gave) after 24. ... Qb5 which I like more than 24. ... c5. ?
What is black's plan after for example 25.Kb1, which looks like a nice waiting move, protecting a2.
What's interesting is that Golubev in his latest game played the variation with 19. ... Nf4, so perhaps black is not as bad there as theory might suggest...
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emoskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #16 - 05/09/06 at 00:53:55
Post Tools
im in the e.r. its like a real game and my clock is running back to u in am, thanks for the gam,e.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #15 - 05/09/06 at 00:44:54
Post Tools
Ok, my next move is of course 19.h4.
Does white really have any alternative at that point?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emoskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #14 - 05/08/06 at 23:25:43
Post Tools
so play i go bh6 now what.u move i reply their are lots of choices happy to show my ideas ur movwe
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #13 - 05/08/06 at 10:11:47
Post Tools
Let's start talking variations!
Eric, will you post some variations or should I shift my attention back to the main line which Ametanoitos started? As far as I can see black is in need of an improvement in your variation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emoskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #12 - 05/05/06 at 20:50:01
Post Tools
my game with gm lie started with bh6 he unfortunately played poorly doing h4, f4 allowing me to play e3 sacing a pawn and changing bishops followed by bg5. then i was ok.  Bh6 is best the rest of my lines were done a t home give me 2 hours ill get back.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #11 - 05/05/06 at 14:51:10
Post Tools
That is in a nutshell what Golubev also gives.
Eric, where is your analysis?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
parisestmagique(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #10 - 05/05/06 at 14:33:57
Post Tools
The Fritz8 5 minutes analyses gives :
9.000 d5 10.exd5 Nxd5 11.Nx6 bx 12.Bd4 e5 13.B5 Be6 14.Ne4 Rb8 15.B4 f5 16.Ng5 e4 17.Bb3 Qf6 18.3 Rxb3 (Bh6!? is Fritz preference 19.h4 Rd8 10.Bxa7 white is better) 19.axb e3 20.Bxe3 NxBe3 21.Qxe3 Bxb3 22.Rd7 clearly better for white.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emoskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #9 - 05/05/06 at 10:43:18
Post Tools
also hint to those that hate me check out bd7 g4 B5 for sdome thought, not an endorsement but going under study in my little lab any ideas?????
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emoskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #8 - 05/05/06 at 10:41:29
Post Tools
ok lets play a team game anyone want to be white in bd7 and d5 and we play 2 demonstration games, we can look for truth as a team and see where we end up.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #7 - 05/05/06 at 06:02:55
Post Tools
FightingDragon wrote on 05/04/06 at 14:44:58:
The longer I play the dragon, the more I have the feeling that black is struggling against 9.0-0-0.
From my experience I just don't trust 9. ... Bd7?! and 9. ... Nd4: anymore and think that black should play 9. ... d5.
Now what are your suggestions for black?


I think that 9...d5 is Black's most solid reply, and I don't think that he is struggling there at all -- against the other replies, it seems that Black is looking for new solutions.

Ametanoitos wrote on 05/04/06 at 16:32:35:
9...d5! is without doubt the strongest move after 9.O-O-O. The problem i have is that there are a lot of forced lines which end in a draw


This would be my main experience with the line, actually, and I find it interesting that you have turned to 8...Bd7.  As a reluctant convert to d5, it is sad to see my fear realized, but I have decided that, generally, the dragon is a poor choice when Black needs to win, and so I no longer worry about drawing lines.

Although I don't want to distract too much from discussion of the critical lines after 12...e5, I find these not so attractive for Black: they appear to increase risk without increasing winning chances.  For those who agree, I suggest 12...Bxd4, which has the advantage that one can learn (and improve upon) the theory in a single afternoon (and so it is a worthwhile second line for anyone).
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Glenn Snow
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 1720
Location: Franklin
Joined: 09/27/03
Gender: Male
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #6 - 05/04/06 at 22:02:46
Post Tools
I think you'll find worthwhile analysis regarding the 14...Re8 variations in this thread http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1122802309. ; Perhaps all of you are aware of this, but just in case not I wanted to mention it.  Is 14...Rb8 15.Bc4 really playable for Black.  I hope so as that is a very exciting variation with some fascinating possiblities.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bragesjo(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #5 - 05/04/06 at 18:44:25
Post Tools
I even think that 24 __ c5 is playable, but rather drawish

But after 24 __ Qb5 what happens in the following variations

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3
g6 6. Be3 Bg7 7. f3 O-O 8. Qd2 Nc6 9. O-O-O d5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12.
Bd4 e5 13. Bc5 Be6 14. Ne4 Re8 15. h4 h6 16. g4 Qc7 17. g5 h5 18. Bc4 Red8 19.
Qf2 Qb7 20. Rhe1 Nf4 21. Bxe6 Nxe6 22. Bd6 Rd7 23. Rd2 Rad8 24. Red1 Qb5 25. b3
(25. c3 {is Fritz move} a5 26. Qe3 a4 27. Qd3 f5 (27... Qb7 28. Qc4 a3 29. b3 {
and Fritz likes whites position}) 28. gxf6 Bh6 29. c4 Bxd2+ 30. Rxd2 Qa6 {
and Fritz likes whites position} (30... Qb4 31. c5 Kf7 {
and Fritz likes white position})) 25... Nd4 26. c3 Nf5 27. Kb2 Nxd6 28. Rxd6 {
instead of Nxd6} (28. Nxd6 Qb6 29. Qe2 Qc7 30. Ne4 Rd5 31. Qe3 Qd7 32. Qc5 Qb7
33. c4 Rxd2+ 34. Rxd2 Rxd2+ 35. Nxd2 e4+ 36. Kc2 exf3 37. Nxf3 Qd7 {
looks good for black}) 28... Rxd6 29. Rxd6 Rxd6 30. Nxd6 Qd3 31. Ne4 a5 32. a4
Qd1 33. Qe3 Bf8 {and Fritz likes whites position} *
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emoskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #4 - 05/04/06 at 16:42:08
Post Tools
hey good thought i gave up re8 because i felt like i was groveling in the tivikov-kruppa ending tiv was b . your analysis i must check agree abou fritz, happy to look at siome bd7 ideas but i never felt quite right and my work always left w better, we can share notes if u have a specific line, if u need my email its emoskow23@aol.com if anytihng is secret, but i am happy to post my thoughts.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Ametanoitos
God Member
*****
Offline


The road to success is
under construction

Posts: 1427
Location: Patras
Joined: 01/04/05
Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #3 - 05/04/06 at 16:32:35
Post Tools
9...d5! is without doubt the strongest move after 9.O-O-O. The problem i have is that there are a lot of forced lines which end in a draw etc after the pawn grab, or the queen sac after 10.Kb1 (although i have analysed a couple of great new ideas after 12..exf6!).
  My preference for now is 8..Bd7, but the games given in Martin's book are not critical, so if anyone wants to play this has to study hard and come up with one or two original ideas in some critical positions. The good thing about this is that the positions arising are not so sharp (as in the 9...Bd7 system in which Golubev's 18.Bh6!! still socks me Cry, FightingDragon you  know what i mean....), and live room for creativity which is good if you have to win against a low-rated player or in a corr game. If you want objectivity, i bet for 9..d5.
  So, let's go for the critical line after 9.0-0-0 d5 10.ed5: Nd5: 11.Nc6: bc6: 12.Bd4! e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4. There is no problem with 14..Re8, as i see it,regarding you have read Dearing's book and after 15.h4 h6 16.g4 Qc7 17.g5 h5 18.Bc4 Red8 19.Qf2 Qb7 20.Rhe1 Nf4 21.Bxe6 Nxe6 and now Dearing's 22.Nf6+ is not so good as is 22.Bd6! (Golubev) Rd7 23.Rd2 Rad8 24.Red1 and now 24..Qb6? transposes to Psakhis-Komljenovic which is losing for black after Qxb6 and Be7 but black can play 24..Qb5! (be carefull at this point.Computers don't help for analysing this position.For example the above losing line given by Psakhis do not see it!) whith the idea to prevent a4 as answer to a5 and threaten ..Nd4 with Rxd6 as now Nc5 doesn't hit anything! So white plays (analysis from me...) 25.b3 Nd4 26.c3!? Nf5 24.Kb2 Nxd6!? 25.Nxd6 Qb6! (now this tade is welcome!) 26.Qe2 Qc7 27.Nc4 Rd5 = with the plan Qd7-e6 or f5-Kh7 and finally f6! gxf6 Bxf6 targeting the h4 pawn.

Any thoughts?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
emoskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #2 - 05/04/06 at 15:17:50
Post Tools
also just gave k lie gm norway a small scare in this line with c3 in a demo game at gausdal will also post the moves after the guy with the chest pain, gotta go.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
eric moskow(Guest)
Guest


Re: Black's best against 9.0-0-0
Reply #1 - 05/04/06 at 15:15:43
Post Tools
ok lets play a game, a gotta see about 20 patients u gotta set up fritz8-9 after c3 when i get home we will compare my notes to yours and lets see how black looks, the old miles, timmin analysis that was published was faulty so lets do this exercise it will do 2 things, 1. save me a point when im  wrong or 2, have people stop using fritz to beat up on position where it does not understand the implication of b3 exchange sacs. be home in about 6 hours but happy to do this given the beating im getting.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FightingDragon
Senior Member
****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 267
Joined: 05/12/04
Black's best against 9.0-0-0
05/04/06 at 14:44:58
Post Tools
The longer I play the dragon, the more I have the feeling that black is struggling against 9.0-0-0.
From my experience I just don't trust 9. ... Bd7?! and 9. ... Nd4: anymore and think that black should play 9. ... d5.
Now what are your suggestions for black?
To give a starting point, Eric Moskow said that 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cd4: 4.Nd4: Nf6 5.Nc3 g6 6.Be3 Bg7 7.f3 0-0 8.Qd2 Nc6 9.0-0-0 d5 10.ed5: Nd5: 11.Nc6: bc6: 12.Bd4! e5 13.Bc5 Be6 14.Ne4 Rb8 should be OK for black.
Andrew Martin in his book also gives this variation in his book, but he doesn't give Golubev's variation 15.Bc4 f5 16.Ng5 e4 17.Bb3! Qf6 and now not 18.Bd4?! as it has happened several times when black gets an equal ending with 18. ... e3! 19.Qe3: Ne3: 20.Bf6: Rf6:! 21.Be6:+ Re6: 22.Ne6: Bb2:+ 23.Kd2 Nd1:.
White can instead halt black's counterplay with 18.c3 when he is better.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo