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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Why does QGD score so poorly? (Read 5735 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #11 - 06/23/06 at 02:38:34
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I agree completely with Keano on this one!  (Which is a relief after our disagreement over Beckham Wink )

The QGD is one of the grand old openings that is still played at the very highest level.  It's not always easy to play, but it has many weapons for both sides.  As White, I don't face the QGD proper very often any more, but it's usually masters who play the Black side and I do have trouble when they do.

Still, I've made the White side of the QGD "my turf", and I will defend it against anyone.  I think that's the attitude that one has to take about certain openings.  Become the champion of your favorite opening.  That doesn't mean you have to play it every time.  It means that when you do play it play for the win and try not to let it down, because it won't let you down.

Cheers! Smiley
  
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J-dog
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #10 - 06/23/06 at 02:07:37
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Okay, my last post was sort of contradictory because I talked about the super-gm games and the statistics they generate and then I went on to recommend the study of a bunch of Kasparov games! sorry about that! lol. Anyway, I know a guy at my club who is very sharp tactically and he plays the Sicilian Dragon vs. e4 and guess what...the QGD vs. d4 and man he comes down hard on those unwary d4 players. Good Luck with QGD.

  
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J-dog
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #9 - 06/23/06 at 01:59:27
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The QGD is a fine opening, sturdy and dependable.  It has a bad reputation and statistics mostly from higher echelon play...super-GM's and other strong GM's.  At lower levels I can't imagine the situation being anything other  than 50-50 chances if you look at it realistically:

Exchange (Nf6 or Be7, Nf3 or Nge2)- Fischer used to win nice games with exchange caro-kann, very similar.  Get QGD by sadler.  It shows some good games for black by Kasparov and Ivanchuk, if they can hang with the QGD, so can you! Some opposite side play and potential to get sharp.  50-50

Bf4- a minefield of tactics and strategy, i don't see how white is in any less danger than black of getting blown up here. 50-50

Bxf6- again look at some kasparov games. two bishops and fairly logical fight for the center, or opposite side attacks. 50-50

Bg5 Tartakower- iso pawn or hanging pawns give black some dynamic chances. harmonious development scheme for black. Again, look at how kasparov has creamed some great players (topalov) with black here. 50-50
  
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iggman
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #8 - 06/09/06 at 02:35:17
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Of course no opening is foolproof.

Openings just happen to be independent of the result in a chess game since there are many paths and blunders for players to choose from.

Grin
  
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #7 - 06/03/06 at 19:53:49
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Thanks for spending the time to look up all those percentages - it makes me feel a bit more comfortable.  I got the stats from chessgames.com and chesslab.com, but I realize these are limited in comparison with some of the larger databases out there.

And I'd love the play the Nimzo if white couldn't avoid it so easily with 1. Nf3, 1.c4, 3.Nf3, etc. 

Cheers,
Scott
  

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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #6 - 05/26/06 at 08:02:06
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The simple answer seems to be that the QGD isn't actually scoring that poorly.

Where are you getting those percentages?

I'm not sure what your database is like, but by using Bigbase 2006 (updated with TWIC every week) Black appears fine.
Not as good as in the Nimzo, but certainly not 65%-70% for White in the standard lines.

After 1.d4 d5  2.c4 e6  3.Nc3 Ng6  4.Nf3 Be7  5.Bg5  (or whatever move order you like to reach here):

5...h6    gives White 54%  (a.k.a. 'standard').

In particular, the Tartakower scores better than standard (as you mentioned), but even the much maligned Lasker's yields only 57% which is far far away from 65-70%. 

The Orthodox/Capablanca lines (i.e. lines with ...Nbd7 and no ...h6) all yield around 60% historically.

During the past 5 years the number of draws is increasing and white wins are down
From the usual 5.Bg5, I show White scoring 59% (and after 5...h6 white scores 57%).
5.Bf4 scores a hefty 65% ... however, after a quick ...c5 the percentages are all down under 60%

The lines with Bxf6 are 55% historically but have been scoring better in the past few years (mostly due to rating discrepancy).
Alatorsev (3...Be7) is giving 58% in the past 5 years, etc. etc.

Anyway, I hope this helps.  Of course, never forget that statistics lie. Grin

The truth is that the QGD is super solid, has a terrific pedigree, and is in no danger of giving up 65%-70% to White in its mainlines.
Don't believe the Hype. 
Now go play the Nimzo and enjoy nearly 51%.   Wink

Cheers.
  

"By some ardent enthusiasts Chess has been elevated into a science or an art. It is neither; but its principal characteristic seems to be what human nature mostly delights in - a fight." - Em. Lasker
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Scott Rex(Guest)
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #5 - 05/09/06 at 16:34:55
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Just to clarify, in the original post I was referring to the traditional QGD lines with Bf4 or Bg5, not the Slav, Semi-Slav, Tarrasch, or Chigorin.
  
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Keano
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #4 - 05/09/06 at 11:45:32
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Yes I would imagine semi-slav Meran type positions have a larger percentage of wins and losses for Black, whereas classical QGD systems have a larger percentage of draws, but that is not to say they are boring! I used to think that for years, but look at the great World Championship  matches in this opening
  
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #3 - 05/09/06 at 08:35:51
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I have had the QGD three times with Black in the last six months and I have won all three, including one, an Exchange Variation, against a 2400 player (although admittedly he was much better until he blundered).

Stats-wise, it does rather depend what you mean by QGD.  Is the Semi-Slav part of that, for example?
  

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Keano
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #2 - 05/09/06 at 08:11:35
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statistics! Dont be fooled QGD is a great opening, scores great for Black if you play it properly!
  
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Re: Why does QGD score so poorly?
Reply #1 - 05/09/06 at 06:35:46
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The advantages might be small but the white side is much easier to play. Little can go wrong.
  

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Scott Rex(Guest)
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Why does QGD score so poorly?
05/09/06 at 03:34:07
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Hi everyone,

I'm wondering why the venerable QGD, often referred to as rock solid, shows such dismal statistics for black in nearly every line.  Often, black doesn't even win 15% of the games and white scores 65-70% no matter which line he chooses.  In some cases the numbers are even worse than this.  These stats seem to hold for everything except the Tartakower variation, which white can easily avoid.  I realize stats don't mean everything, but I've never seen a major opening score so poorly across the board.  Does anyone have an explanation for this? 

Thanks,
Scott
  
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