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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin! (Read 123419 times)
JEH
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #278 - 11/05/15 at 15:35:37
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Holbox wrote on 10/05/07 at 10:33:45:
JEH, have you ever tried to play the open games with black seriously? I mean with same effort you make with the Pirc.


I have now  Smiley
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
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GMTonyKosten
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #277 - 01/18/08 at 18:49:12
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Yes, I second TN's motion, and look forward to the next edition!! Smiley
  
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TopNotch
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #276 - 01/18/08 at 18:33:11
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Clearly Mr. Aagard has paid close attention to the points raised in my posts, but I'm disappointed that he chose to cleverly justify his position by not dealing with my points in full, but instead using partial excerpts of these same points to essentially alter their intended meaning.

Anyway lets not harp on that too much, we will wait and see if indeed all the updated, revised and corrected material is provided free of cost to those with the 1st edition. Until then I will suspend further judgement. I do find it curious though, that quite a few posters here have chosen to laud the appearance of this 2nd edition while at the same time not commenting on its timing.          

To the guy that tried to claim that Kaufman's work was more or less just a database dump, I would say that such a view is simply ridiculous to me.  Over time I would say that Kaufman's analysis, strengthened by engines of course, has held up quite well and if I am not mistaken, according to sources, his analysis of the Evans Gambit  seems more convincing than what Marin gives in his more recent book covering the same recommendation.

Looks like this already distended thread isn't about to come to an end any time soon.

I propose that this thread be now locked and a fresh thread started devoted to this new updated, expanded, corrected, revised and more expensive second edition.

Can I have this motion seconded?

Toppy Smiley

  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
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Antillian
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #275 - 01/18/08 at 17:37:22
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GMTonyKosten wrote on 01/18/08 at 17:21:03:
 
Well, as a newbie it must be a daunting prospect to troll through the previous 20 pages of this thread....


I seem to recall that some 15 out of the 20 pages had to do with superfluous stuff like the merit of "pressure" vs. "pressurize" and the like  Roll Eyes

At, least to me, it seemed like 15 pages  Angry
  

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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #274 - 01/18/08 at 17:21:03
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pioleiva wrote on 01/18/08 at 16:12:51:
I have to admit that I dont get all the complaints about Marins work.

Well, as a newbie it must be a daunting prospect to troll through the previous 20 pages of this thread, but if you do you will see that there are a lot of problems besides the ones you mention, some poor research and some faulty analysis, for instance. Sad
No book is perfect, but this one does seem to have more than it's fair share of problems.
  
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pioleiva
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #273 - 01/18/08 at 16:12:51
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I have to admit that I dont get all the complaints about Marins work. It has its flaws, as every opening book does. But if you compare it honestly to other 1. e4 e5 repertoire books available, it is cearly the best in most aspects:

1. It is the only one that explains ideas and plans thoroughly, far into the middle or sonetimes even the endgame. Neither Emms, nor Kaufman or Davies can even dare to compare to this coverage. For me, a 2200 player, the non-basic explanations were quite helpful. It is not the superficial stuff found in many other works like "and white pressurizes the isolated d pawn".

2. It contains far more original analysis than Emms, Kaufman or Davies. Kaufman basically offers a database print with some few computer suggestions (mainly single lines). Davies is very good when he analyses his own games (fortunately there are quite a lot in his overall recommendable book), but is quite superficial otherwise. Emms also offers quite a lot original analysis, but still much less than Marin does.

3. The theoretical coverage of the covered openings is very detailed. Only Emms can compare to that. On the downside Marin forgets some openings (the Belgrade, the Bishops opening). This is his only serious weakness. On the other hand, the coverage of some openings in Davies and Kaufmans books is more than lousy, too. Especially the Two-Knights and the Glek system are the weak spots in Davies work, and the Worrall is weak too. Kaufmann is in many ways very superficial (as he to cover a little more than just 1.e4 e5).

One problem with Marins book is the unusual format in Informant style. Yes, it requires working with the book, as its not easy to browse through the lines. But just imagine how many pages Marins work had if they inserted some more diagrams....

In my opinion the final verdict is clear. Strangely enough, the other books are highly acclaimed in this forum. Dont get me wrong, they are all very good opening books compared to the bulk of bad books out there. But...the Marin book is clearly the best in the aspects pointed out above.

If someone does not like the repertoire suggestions, well, what can you say? You could do worse than buying Kaufman, Emms or Davies... But thats not a problem of Marins book!
  
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #272 - 01/18/08 at 10:04:30
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Some more thoughts are rolling through my mind:

Quote:
As my initial post regrettably started this ball rolling

As customers we dont have to excuse, but we have a certain responsibility for the product we buy or want to buy.

Quote:
I like the work from Mr.Marin  very much and I am really interested in the second edition

Me too! But something to add: I bought "Learning from the legends" and "Experts vs Sicilian" - both are the second edition - so perhaps I had the feeling, that the Marin books will sooner or later have a second and improved version anyway which I should wait for. Undecided

Quote:
I can see that irony does not work well on noticeboards. I appologise, I did not intend to offend.

Smiley
About "irony": communication is very complicated (ask my wife  Grin) and irony is something of the most dangerous ways to do it.
  
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Knut S.
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #271 - 01/18/08 at 09:33:24
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As my initial post regrettably started this ball rolling, I'd like to make a couple of points.

- Although Agaard didn't mention that I should not pass on the info about the update, I should have checked with him before posting on the forum. For this I apologise.

- I am surprised by some of the very negative comments to the availability of an update. My thoughts about it is basically the same as the ones posted by Christoph63 just above. Although Aagaard makes the odd rash comment, I generally think his arguments are sound and that the actions of QC should be recommended.



  
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #270 - 01/18/08 at 09:10:50
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 01/18/08 at 08:00:52:
I can see that irony does not work well on noticeboards. I appologise, I did not intend to offend. However, I fear I will now become boring, which is even worse!

I havent quoted the message in full for space considerations, but I do want to add my $0.02.
With reagards to your point 1 and 2. That sounds entirely reasonable, especially considering many people seem to like version 1 despite the flaws which are adressed now. As to your point 4, I personally very much appreciate it when writers/publishers discuss their products with the (potential) customers. It shows they care about their products and about their customers and it often gives valuable insight into a book before buying (often better than a review, which as has been noted are often flawed). So personally I quite appreciate your participation and it certainly hasnt impacted my image of your books in a negative way.

Lastly and a bit outside this discussion. Almost all 1.e4 e5 books have serious flaws, especially the ones from the black side and the so-called attacking repertoires for white (usually based on some d4 gambit). They often miss transpositions (or entire lines) and usually just repeat other books, where very often the flaws in those analysis are known since the 60s. I am not sure why this is, but my guess is that titled players dont get those lines in their games (unlike us amateurs).
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #269 - 01/18/08 at 08:44:13
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Sorry for my english.
I like the work from Mr.Marin  very much and I am really interested in the second edition.
I find it absolute positiv, that they dont reprint the first one but create a new one with included the "truth" which is found out after the first edition.
Thanks, that they give us the chance to download some of the new pages, this is really not the regular behavior for a business companie.

Of course I will think about buying the second edition too, but I am not angry about buying the first edition because my chessunderstanding did profit from this excellent book.

Best regard

Christoph
  

Best wishes!&&&&Christoph
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #268 - 01/18/08 at 08:30:16
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@ Aagaard: Every crisis is a chance - Take this chance! Stay tuned!  Smiley
  
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Jacob Aagaard
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #267 - 01/18/08 at 08:00:52
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I can see that irony does not work well on noticeboards. I appologise, I did not intend to offend. However, I fear I will now become boring, which is even worse!

If you have read this thread you will see

1) We always admitted that there were omissions. Most clearly so by provided updates online, as well as having these inserted in the US, where the books had not yet been distributed. The omission was the Belgrade Gambit, (and a 1 line note explaining how the Bishop's Opening is covered by transpositions).

2) We're almost completely sold out of the first edition and have to reprint. According to some here it is an insult to buyers of the first print that we update the second one? (So I speculated that maybe this is why other publishers do not do this? Or to not do the work, maybe?)

3) I had a failed attempt of tongue in cheek saying that we will not waste time doing this in the future, the same people got even more angry.

4) It definitely is my experience that I should have stayed off the noticeboard. If I had said nothing there would have been no personal attacks as well as people saying they would not buy from us in the future. Maybe I have lost sales by answering to people's concerns?

5) About Knut and his initial comment here. He asked me about Beating the Open Games and I told him that we were preparing an update. It is not that it is a big secret. However, I would very much have preferred to announce this on our Website and newsletter (and not on the noticeboard) with the online update which Mihail is preparing, so I got a bit cross with Knut. I think everyone who stopped to think would have understood this!
I did not ask him to remove his message or even consider it.

6) Finally after a few days someone started to wonder what the updates are all about. Well, the 80 pages is not because there are some undiscovered openings not already covered. It is to a small degree a few theoretical fixes. It is the inclusion of the existing updates (in a rewritten form) and then the overwhelming majority is based on Mihail's and others games played AFTER the publication of the first edition. Not an omission by anyone's standard I should hope. We did not request 80 pages. We just asked Mihail to see if there were any small notes he wanted to include. Should we have binned the remaining 78 excellent pages?

7) As the new edition will be 80 pages longer, we have to charge more to cover the obvious extra costs. I hope this is logical to most and that the majority will not see it as hustling.

8) I think the comparison to MEGA DATABASE some came with is not unfair. The product is the most up to date version at the market when sold. This does not mean that the products will not follow the changes in the world.

What really gets to me is this:

This whole discussion has a presupposition that we are out to cheat people and that we are evil (rich???) that milk the customers (yes those words were used).

It compares to this:

There vas a posting some time back. I cannot remember the details well, but the claim was that we delayed the publications of books in the US, by not publishing them at the same time as Everyman. It is true that the books are out about 6 weeks later in the US. This is because they have to get there. What Everyman used to do was to print in the US and release the books later in Europe. Now they print in the UK. If they release the books at the same time, they simply delay them in Europe. We just send the books out when we can, and you can always buy them from Europe if you cannot wait 4-6 weeks.

I must say that the personal criticism of me here has been out of line. I updated a chess book, does that make me a bad person?

I hope that the online updates of the book will be ready in 2-3 weeks on our website, while the new edition will not be available for some months.

People who want to discuss anything with me can find me at jacob@qualitychessbooks.com. I try to reply everyone asap.

Thanks to those who have had a more nuanced opinion, whether agreeing with us or not.

Jacob Aagaard
  
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #266 - 01/18/08 at 02:41:29
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 01/17/08 at 15:42:51:
Yes, the book has omissions. But many opening books have omissions and are automatically reprinted without complaints.

However, before anyone gets really annoyed, know that you had the book before the new edition was available (and it will be a while still) and that you will get free access to the updates on the website.

I don't own the book(s), but it is clear that omitting the Belgrade is a serious flaw. If this has been corrected, then what is the problem? Owners of the orignal edition have the updates, owners of the improved one don't need them.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #265 - 01/18/08 at 02:24:32
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Jacob Aagaard wrote on 01/17/08 at 15:42:51:
But, as we are not out to annoy anyone, this is probably the last time we will listen to the concerns of the readers and react to them by providing corrections, updates and expansions when we reprint.


I think the general tenor of the recent discussion has misinterpreted this point.  I read it as saying: readers of the first edition noted a couple of gaps and author and press have moved quickly to address them.  The thread seems to interpret them as suggesting that the press doesn't care what its customers think.  On the contrary.  Even if there are flaws in the repertoire, I maintain that both these books are excellent and remain highly instructive.  With careful study, Black should be able to enter these lines with confidence and find improvements from the text.

In fact, I would venture, TN, that this is precisely the kind of book you would advocate in light of earlier discussions on the machine-like tendencies of many chess players.  Rather than just giving moves, Marin does an admirable job of identifying and articulating the key themes in each variation.  My initial sense is that the Spanish volume is indeed the superior of the two, but I certainly wouldn't mistake a new edition of the Open Games as an assertion that the first edition wasn't worth the paper it was written on.  There's a lot of excellent material there...
  

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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #264 - 01/18/08 at 02:14:13
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In business there is a maxim that 'the customer is always right' and as absurd as this statement may sound, there is more than a grain of truth in it.

To pretend not to understand or empathise with a purchaser of one of your repertoire books which is updated, expanded and corrected within months of its release, shows an incredible lack of deferrence for your paying customer base. Lets hope that many of the views you expressed here were meant to be taken toungue in cheek.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and with all due respect, the quality of many chess book reviews leave much to be desired. Most of the reviews I have seen on this book didn't even note that they were important ommissions, and that  says to me that many reviewers often skim through the pages superficially and base their final judgments on the reputation of the author rather than the work in front of them.  

Since you have advised that you intend to provide the updated material to purchasers of the 1st edition gratis, I will refrain from elaborating too much on the lack of depth, and by lack of depth I mean the disproportionate amount of space devoted to minor side lines in relation to the critical ones. This failing was particulary noticable in the Kings Gambit Declined repertoire, which I am guessing constitutes a major part of the re-write for the second edition. Hopefully this time around the material provided will be more up to date, thorough and convincing than earlier books covering the same material.

We wait with bated breath.

TN Smiley



  

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