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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin! (Read 159908 times)
Michael Ayton
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #113 - 03/28/07 at 15:13:10
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Time, surely, to start a separate “language” thread! ...


But if I started one, I'd be forced to record that Tony's just committed a "diffuse" for "defuse" ...  Shocked
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #112 - 03/28/07 at 14:45:01
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“Recuperate” and “recoup” (which are different words, ghenghisclown) are obviously close in meaning, and could perhaps be thought of as interesting “confusibles”? The implication of (say) “recuperate financial losses” (or at least, the possible context in which the phrase might be idiomatic, if it ever would!) strikes me as being slightly different from that of “recoup financial losses”. “Recoup” tends, does it not, to be used of something (e.g. an investment) itself deliberately previously disbursed (as opposed to, say, your getting back from a bank unjustifiably exacted bank charges) whereas the same wouldn’t necessarily be true of the transitive “recuperate” (which seems in any case to be pretty rare -- maybe it’s a financial jargon?)! (Obviously such a distinction doesn’t apply in respect of health, but then you wouldn’t “recoup” your health anyway.)

In any event, the reason for the slight difference in meaning between the two words lies of course in their etymology, the force of which is still resident in the sense: the transitive “recuperate” essentially means to take back, whereas etymologically speaking “recoup” means to cut back. Naturally, different writers and speakers use language with different levels of historical linguistic awareness, which is one reason why the study of linguistic idioms is such a complex and fascinating science! Since having written it, I realise that I have come across the “recuperate financial losses” usage. This usage might be quite, or even very, rare, but a dictionary is of course right to record such usages -- for all I know these ones (recuperate losses/health) might be thoroughly idiomatic in some quarters, and indeed their citation in reputable dictionaries might even be taken as implying this. (Equally, you obviously can’t blame smaller dictionaries for failing to record them.) Personally I’d go much further, and say that there’s nothing wrong in anyone employing a “rare” usage in any (appropriate!) context so long as it’s not just abstruse (I’m just delighted to be reminded of the wealth and variety of the language!), but I’d accept that’s a subjective viewpoint and one that might be open to attack!

Like most editors, I love to debate language questions till the cows come home! But I feel some folk want us to get back to the chess, and who can blame them! Time, surely, to start a separate “language” thread! ...
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #111 - 03/28/07 at 09:50:05
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Yes, of course, capio. Changing to a ‘u’ as in occupy. So clearly the original meaning was the transitive one.

Indeed, according to my OED the transitive meaning was found in the 17th century, in the 19th an intermediate transitive meaning arose (to recuperate a patient), and now we have the modern meaning. I wonder how on earth that happened?

Surely one would recoup one’s losses, Michael, not recuperate them? I wonder when recoup arose?
  
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MNb
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #110 - 03/28/07 at 01:56:27
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/27/07 at 09:24:15:
Zoo, that's what Marin said to me. Recuperar (I think that's the form) has this double meaning in Spanish and Romanian too. It's just English hasn't succumbed yet.


The meaning recover one's strength is especially popular among Fleming cycle fans (I used to watch Tour de France on Fleming TV).

On 6.Qb3: I don't know what Marin says, but according to Palkovy Black will be better after Qf6.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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Antillian
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #109 - 03/27/07 at 22:51:42
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ghenghisclown wrote on 03/27/07 at 08:59:54:
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7.  Evans gambit :  1. e4 e5  2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. b4  Bxb4 5. c3 Ba5 6.d4 exd4 7. 0-0 Nge7


Since you have a copy, pray tell, Kalle 99, what does Marin say about 6.Qb3!?



It is good to see the occasional discussion about this book on this thread. ....Oh yeah, i forgot this thread is about a book isn't it.  Roll Eyes
  

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ghenghisclown
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #108 - 03/27/07 at 21:15:01
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...recuperar means "get back".


Yes it does. I also use it in English when saying something like "I'd like to recoup my investment."

So English has caught up to Spanish, French, and Romanian (which appears to be crude Latin to me, that would make sense given the name).

Now can somebody please talk about 6. Qb3 in the Evans? I'm going to start using the verb learn as a transitive just to piss y'all off!!
  

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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #107 - 03/27/07 at 19:57:49
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Several dictionaries actually give “one’s health” as a possible object! -- intriguing, to say the least …


This is the only context that I've ever used "recuperate" in my average American lifetime.  "I've finally recuperated from the flu I had last week."
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #106 - 03/27/07 at 15:50:30
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[quote]I can't imagine recuperating anything in modern English. What might an example sentence be?
[/quote]

Good question. A quick butcher’s reveals that almost all decent dictionaries give the transitive sense, but possibly “recuperate financial losses” is about the only vaguely idiomatic usage left? Several dictionaries actually give “one’s health” as a possible object! -- intriguing, to say the least …

As for the Latin [i]recuperare[/i], the root, presumably, is [i]-cip-[/i] or [i]-cap-[/i] (cf. [i]capere[/i]) -- [i]cuperare[/i] of course doesn't exist -- but to be more precise (or rather, precise!) about this I’ll have to do some swotting.
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #105 - 03/27/07 at 13:04:31
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Really?? I'm going to have to go back to my OED. I can't imagine recuperating anything in modern English. What might an example sentence be?

Yes, now you say Tacitus I think a recuperat or two comes back to mind, used transitively as you say. But one imagines there must have been some underlying cuper- root. I can't think of that.
  
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Michael Ayton
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #104 - 03/27/07 at 11:59:03
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Yes, [i]recuperare [/i](modern Italian [i]ricuperare[/i]) is standard Latin, occurring in Cicero, Caesar and Tacitus. It should be said that the transitive meaning not only still exists in modern English (you can recuperate something you’ve lost -- the reason the chess usages mentioned above tickle the funny bone is that they’re just not idiomatic) but was, as you’d expect, the original meaning. The modern intransitive meaning is presumably a relatively late one -- it might even be nineteenth-century, though that’s just a guess and could be way out!
  
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #103 - 03/27/07 at 11:29:02
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IMJohnCox wrote on 03/27/07 at 10:25:31:
You mean no double meaning at all but the other one alone? Interesting. I can't actually work out what the root of recuperate is.  It must be Latin, I suppose, but nothing comes to mind. Anyone?



Recuperate: To recover health and strength. From the Latin recuperare meaning to regain, get back, recover. To recuperate is to convalesce.

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=5254
  
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Justinhorton
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #102 - 03/27/07 at 10:58:30
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I'm afraid pretty much all I remember is amo, bellum and Caecilius est pater. But I shall ask...
  
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IMJohnCox
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #101 - 03/27/07 at 10:25:31
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You mean no double meaning at all but the other one alone? Interesting. I can't actually work out what the root of recuperate is.  It must be Latin, I suppose, but nothing comes to mind. Anyone?
  
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #100 - 03/27/07 at 09:59:01
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It would make the mistake more understandable though since if you live abroad for a long time you're likely to get a little confused by words that are similar or identical in form but different in meaning. I believe the term is "false friends", is it not? In Spanish for instance compromiso does not mean "compromise" and promoción means "not being relegated in the play-offs" as opposed to "going up".

According to the Collins Spanish School Dictionary I have right here, recuperar means "get back".
  
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Re: New 1...e5! book by Mikhail Marin!
Reply #99 - 03/27/07 at 09:24:15
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Zoo, that's what Marin said to me. Recuperar (I think that's the form) has this double meaning in Spanish and Romanian too. It's just English hasn't succumbed yet.
  
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