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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Semi-Tarrasch (Read 36294 times)
alumbrado
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #12 - 05/24/06 at 17:11:18
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No no no.  It's quite simple really  Angry

The Ragozin is ...Bb4 - he does not need to go ...Nc6 for a Ragozin - but he may well have to in response to Qa4+ by White

The Manhattan/Westphalia starts out as a Ragozin, but Black meets Bg5 with ...Nbd7 (it is this move that defines it as a Manhattan).  So maybe it's better to think of the Manhattan as a sub-variation of the Ragozin  Undecided

At least, that's what I think  Wink
  

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kylemeister
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #11 - 05/22/06 at 19:17:44
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I think of the Ragozin as involving ...Nc6 (without ...c5 first), as Fischer played in his teens.

I don't know what to call those lines after say 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6 3. Nc3 Nf6 4. Nf3 Bb4 5. cd ed 6. Bg5 where Black plays moves like ...h6, ...c5 and ...g5, since to my mind that's neither a Ragozin nor a Manhattan/Westphalian.  Perhaps (per MNb) my definition of Ragozin is too narrow ...

I've noticed a couple of high-level games lately where Black reached a sort of modified Manhattan, by getting in ...Be6 before ...Nbd7.  So is that a Ragozin too?     Huh Roll Eyes
  
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lnn2
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #10 - 05/22/06 at 17:00:49
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uh.. so what is the Ragozin? i suppose the Ragozin IS the Manhattan?! In Ruslan's ebook on the Ragozin, black plays both Bb4 and Nbd7 too.   Undecided

Looking at Ruslan's latest update, the slightly offbeat Botvinnik/Vienna hybrid line might be worth a try too if one is willing to work hard to find improvements: currently Ivanchuk-Vallejo  Linares/Morelia06 is terrifying for Black!
  
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alumbrado
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #9 - 05/22/06 at 14:39:44
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To add to the confusion, the Manhattan (as has correctly been pointed out, this is the variation with ...Bb4 and ...Nbd7) is also sometimes known as the Westphalia, after the boat on which some of the players sailed to New York, and where they analysed the variation prior to using it in the tournament.
  

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MNb
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #8 - 05/22/06 at 12:12:28
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Since Taimanov's book Dame-Gambit bis Holländisch I thought all variations with Bb4 and Nbd7 (White almost always exchanges on d5 at some point) were called Manhattan Variation. The name comes from some Spielmann and Vidmar games in the 1927 New York tournament, where the move order was 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Nbd7 5.Nf3 Bb4.
Ragosin Variation collects all the lines with Bb4, but without Nbd7 and dxc4. The whole classification is not very handy.
  

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lnn2
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #7 - 05/22/06 at 03:30:21
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after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Bg5 Bb4+, Palliser gives 5. Nbd2 (like Bogoindian?!), avoiding all the Ragozin/Vienna stuff, but Black can always look for improvements on Palliser's book. Still i think 4... Bb4+ in a way plays into White's hands, and the positions after 5. Nbd2 are abit tedious to play for Black, so would prefer to go for main Bg5 QGD like Tartakower (or trying for a quick draw with the Lasker is fine too).

i've heard of the Manhattan, but never really sure if its just another name for the Ragozin. Is the Manhattan all the independent lines for White after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Bg5 Nbd7? since 6. cxd5 transposes to the Ragozin after all.  5... h6 is interesting, maybe White is slightly better after 6. Bxf6 Qxf6 7. Qa4+ but Black can defend.
  
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MNb
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #6 - 05/22/06 at 02:01:19
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1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Bb4 5.Bg5 and besides dxc4 (Vienna) also Nbd7 (Manhattan Variation) and even h6 are possible.
Does Palliser give something independent after 4.Bg5 Bb4+ ?
Finally there is 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.Nf3 d5.
So the Ragosin indeed nicely complements the NID.
  

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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #5 - 05/20/06 at 03:02:03
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hello, some notable recent games: a few years back there was a mini-debate on the Semi-Tarrasch between Dreev and Yusupov, they ended spectecularly badly for Black (Dreev-Yusupov Aeroflot 03, and Ordix Mainz Op. 03). Radjabov-Van Wely from recent FIDE World Cup 05 is another example.

A good choice for HgMan to complement his Nimzo is the Ragozin QGD, Black also gets to play the Nimzo move Bb4 (the Ragozin is actually classified under the Nimzo-Indian according to NIC), there's also the standard stuff about blockading and at the moment Black looks as equal as anywhere else, though admittedly White players all seemed to have forgotten about the Ragozin in their preparation! That also means the Ragozin has fair surprise value. I guess a possible problem (depending on your taste) is a transposition to the Vienna after 4... Bb4 5. Bg5 dxc4, but maybe Black can try some independent move here?! Of course don't also forget the Palliser move-order 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 e6 3. Nf3 d5 4. Bg5.
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #4 - 05/19/06 at 12:51:46
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Hello,

There is also the approach of Spassky v Fischer. Ribli was the last to use opening at Candiate Matches level, as far as I remember, but that was back in the 80's.

Bye John S
  
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HgMan
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #3 - 05/19/06 at 00:54:11
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Thanks, John.  I'm familiar with both those games, and they were the source of my original concerns.  What's strange is the number of strong players who continue to willingly play this line from the Black side AND the number of top players with the White pieces who play 6 e3 instead (this looks much more attractive and manageable for Black).  Ultimately, I suppose that 6 e4 doesn't offer a forced win, but Black must work exceptionally hard to overcome White's advantage, which is significant.

If I'm hoping to get games with the IQP (a la 6 e3), then I guess I should transpose from the Panov-Botvinnik Attack in the Caro-Kann, rather than hoping that opponents will opt out of 6 e4 here...
  

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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #2 - 05/19/06 at 00:09:35
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I stand to be corrected, but I don't think theory's verdict that White has the better chances in this line has been shaken since the two classics Spassky-Petrosian (w Ch match 1969) and Polugaevsky-Tal (USSR Ch also 1969 I think, could be 1970). The latter is in Polu's Grandmaster Preparation book. If you don't know these games already, start with them.
  
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HgMan
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Re: Semi-Tarrasch
Reply #1 - 05/18/06 at 23:56:20
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The reason I asked is that I'm looking for openings to complement my new (old) interest in the Nimzo-Indian.  I was toying with the Blumenfeld, and then thought I should have something prepared in case White doesn't advance the d-pawn to d5.  Having spent a fair amount of time working through IQPs, I thought it might be worth taking advantage of that work.  So the Semi-Tarrasch looks like it might be worth a look.  It's strange that an opening that occurs relatively frequently at the highest level doesn't have much literature on it (is it in many of the QGD books?)  The line that bothers me:

1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 c5 4 Nc3 d5 5 cxd5 Nxd5 6 e4 Nxc3 7 bxc3 cxd4 8 cxd4 Bb4+ 9 Bd2 Bxd2+ 10 Qxd2 0-0

Instead of creating an IQP to attack, I've left White with two pawns in the center of the board.  In practice, the pawns aren't terribly strong or secure, thanks in part to the open c-file and two sets of minor pieces having come off the board, but White seems to do reasonably well in this line.  It's playable for Black, but what plan?  I presume ... b6, ... Bb7, ... Rac8, ... Rfd8, and Q-where? with some pressure on White's pawns...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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HgMan
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Semi-Tarrasch
05/15/06 at 17:58:54
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What is the current status of the Semi-Tarrasch?  I keep hearing references to it being "much maligned," etc., but with little suggestion that it is in trouble.  It's always struck me as being very solid.  Does Black just get little chance to play for a win?  Do any of the recent QGD books offer much in the way of analysis here?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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