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Poll Question: Your reply to the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit?
bars   pie

6...exf3 (accepted)    
  3 (20.0%)
6...c5    
  6 (40.0%)
6...e5    
  2 (13.3%)
6...b6    
  1 (6.7%)
6...Nd7    
  0 (0.0%)
6...Nf6    
  0 (0.0%)
6...other    
  3 (20.0%)




Total votes: 15
« Created by: OstapBender on: 05/16/06 at 21:20:27 »
Normal Topic C15: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit (Read 10390 times)
fling
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Re: C15: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #9 - 01/19/16 at 19:59:21
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Dom, yes it is me for sure. I fully agree that the St George is far away from WRG. That was not my point at all. The point was to say how absurd it is with the arguments I do quite well with this or that move OTB, and nothing else (because that is what Gambit normally use as a remark. See also recently in another thread). I got tired of that.

If we want to discuss an opening, analysis and plans is useful. I consider playing some openings that may not be fully sound when i might have to win e.g. But to always hear the sole argument that a player is successful with this or that gambit is not. In that case Miles is as valid an argument, imo. Or look at Carlsen's openings in many of his games for that matter. Not theoretically threatening but he still wins.

  
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Re: C15: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #8 - 01/19/16 at 19:03:17
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fling : is it you really ?

Forgetting Miles I could accept it....but 1.e4 a6 is far away for the WRG....maybe it's a nice way to assess that many opening moves are leading to not losing middlegames ?

Status of WRG : I have not noticed a recent trend in high Elo players, to play such gambits as White ...it's my status from my usual experience of reading chessbase web pages


  

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Re: C15: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #7 - 12/31/15 at 08:16:30
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What about 1...a6? I have heard about a guy who could beat a World Champion with that move. Any status?
  
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Re: C15: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #6 - 12/31/15 at 06:01:49
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What about the WRG in over-the-board tournaments? Any status? I do quite well with it in OTB games.
  
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Re: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #5 - 05/18/06 at 01:45:03
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The two games were from theme tournaments, which I downloaded at that WRG site. I don't recall, if they were played by corr or email. I am almost sure, these were not OTB games.
  

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Re: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #4 - 05/17/06 at 18:15:27
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MNb:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and supporting lines.  On the rare ocassions where I make a post (limited by a combination of lack of time and fear of exposing my ignorance!) you're definitely one of the people I hope to hear from.

Is Sveinsson-Viola a correspondence game (couldn't find it)?  I've seen 10...Qxd4 and 10...Qxa3, but not 10...Qxc2 which seems to be better than the alternative captures.

I agree that 7.Qd2/8.Bb2 doesn't look promising, but 7.Bf4, although not particularly inspiring at first glance, might be better than it looks.

david Flude:
Nice insight!  A Winckelmann-Reimer/Alapin-Diemer repertoire against players with predictable gambit reponses is an intriguing idea.

Keano:
5...Ne7 looks like a good way to enourage White to tranpose back to Winawer main lines.  I suppose White could avoid this with:
6.Bd3
I'd be willing to play the white side of something like
6...c5 7. exd5 Qxd5 8.Nf3 Nbc6 9.O-O Bd7 10.c4 Qd6 11.dxc5 Qxc5 12.Be3.
On the other hand, I doubt that Black has anything to fear here.
  

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Re: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #3 - 05/17/06 at 14:12:14
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I imagine going back a move 5...Ne7 is also not bad
  
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Re: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #2 - 05/17/06 at 08:58:31
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I have come to the conclusion that at the club level

1) the WRG accepted is almost certainly better for white (possibly closed to a forced win) but that the gambit declined is brtter for black.

2) On the other hand the Alapin-Diemer gambit is better for black if he accepts the gambit  but better for white if he declines the gambit.

At the club level there are players who never accept gambits and others who always accept them. So play the WRG against players who accept all gambits and the alapin Diemer against players who decline all gambits
  
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MNb
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Re: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
Reply #1 - 05/17/06 at 01:47:56
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Imo 6...c5 leads to a black advantage. A few sample lines:
7.Bb5+ Bd7 8.a4 Qa5! 9.Ra3 e3! 10.d5 Nf6! or 8.Qe2 Qa5! 9.Rb1 Qxc3+ 10.Bd2 Qxc2 11.Rc1 Qb2 12.Rxc5 Nc6 13.fxe4 Qxd4 Sveinsson-Viola, 2000.
The useful waiting move 7.Rb1 is answered with Nf6 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.Qe2 cxd4 (now better than Qa5 10.fxe4 cxd4 11.Nf3 and White's quick development offers compensation) 10.fxe4 Nc6 11.Nf3 dxc3 12.e5 Nd5 13.o-o Qc7! 14.Ng5 Qxe5 15.Qxe5 Nxe5 16.Bxd7+ Nxd7 and Black survives with excellent winning chances, Flude-Everett, 2000.
Winckelmann himself on the website devoted to the WRG admitted (is it still there?), that Black is more than OK. So he shifted his attention to vague tries like 7.Qd2 Nf6 8.Bb2 and 7.Bf4, but that is a bad sign of course.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
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C15: Dealing with the Winckelmann-Reimer Gambit
05/16/06 at 21:20:27
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I'm a bit surprise that the Winckelmann-Riemer Gambit,
1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. a3 Bxc3+ 5. bxc3 dxe4 6. f3!?
is not a more popular reply to the French Winawer.  My guess is that one of the declined variations is the culprit.

I've gathered up a number of WRG games over the years and 6...c5 (sometimes given !) seems to be one of the more popular responses.  I seem to recall 6...e5 being recommended as Black's strongest move (in one of Tim Harding's kibitzer columns?).  John Watson once recommended 6...b6 although he may be recommending another move in his most recent edition of Play the French (which I haven't yet acquired - to my shame Embarrassed).

I also recall Neil McDonald at some point characterizing the whole Winckelmann-Riemer Gambit as unsound, which would seem to imply White can just grab the pawn with 6...exf3.

My own opinion is that accepting the gambit verges on suicidal (I have a very different opinion of the BDG, BTW) and that 6...e5 is a safe (perhaps even very strong) reply - at least with the right follow up.

I'd be interested to know what others think of the Winckelmann-Reimer...
« Last Edit: 08/01/11 at 17:21:02 by dom »  

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