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Normal Topic Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be7 (Read 4551 times)
lnn2
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Re: Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be
Reply #7 - 05/20/06 at 05:45:41
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Hello, interesting that Crouch deals with this, will take a look at his book. By the way, there're quite a few gung-ho d4 players around e.g. Van Wely, Sakaev. I think d4 players in the world are divided into those who play 5.e3 against the Semi-Slav, and 5. Bg5. Beware of the latter types  Tongue. Was abit surprised by Ivanchuk-Asrian Antalya04, where chuky, who's otherwise a theoretical monster, simply acquiesed with 7. Rc1.
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be
Reply #6 - 05/19/06 at 11:40:37
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Hello,

  Crouch looks at the game Euwe v Lasker in his book. Not so much opening discussion as for some other games. Since Inn2 seems to like a gun-ho approach, unusual for d4 players in my experience, he might like the suggestion that white " Can use greater mobility, to castle queen-side and get attack going quicker than black", or words to that effect quoting following game

[Event "Yerevan zt"]
[Site "Yerevan"]
[Date "1982.02.??"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Psakhis,Lev"]
[Black "Agzamov,Georgy"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "D61"]
1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.Nf3 d5 4.Nc3 Be7 5.Bg5 0-0 6.e3 Nbd7 7.Qc2 c6 8.0-0-0 Re8
9.h4 a6 10.Bd3 dxc4 11.Bxc4 Nd5 12.Kb1 Nxc3+ 13.Qxc3 b5 14.Bb3 Bb7 15.Ne5 Rc8 16.Bxe7 Rxe7
17.Nxd7 Rxd7 18.Qc5 Qf8 19.Rc1 Qxc5 20.Rxc5 Kf8 21.h5 Ke7 22.g4 Kd6 23.f4 Re8 24.Bc2 g6
25.Kc1 Rg8 26.g5 Kc7 27.Kd2 Kb6 28.Be4 Rc8 29.Ke2 Kc7 30.Bf3 Kd6 31.Kd3 Kc7 32.Rhc1 Kd6
33.a4 Rdd8 34.Kc3 Ra8 35.Kb4 a5+ 36.Kb3 bxa4+ 37.Kxa4 Ra6 38.Rxa5 Rb6 39.b4 Rb8 40.Ka3 Bc8
41.Ra7 Bd7 42.Rc4 gxh5 43.Bxh5 Be8 44.Bf3 Bd7 45.Bh5 Be8 46.Bxf7 Bxf7 47.Rxf7 Ra8+ 48.Kb3 Rba6
49.Rc3 Kd5 50.Rd7+ Ke4 51.Kc4 Rb8 52.Re7 Kf5 53.Rf7+ Ke4 54.Re7 Kf5 55.Rxh7 Ra4 56.Rb3 Ra1
57.Rh6  1-0

He breaks off analysis, somewhere like 15 Ne5, thinking that white has slight advantage. Makes light comments earlier, something like playing b5 earlier is more critical.
   Also thinks white has a edge, with non-commital rook  moves like 8Rc1, 8Rd1 and also with "battle for tempo" 8a3 which Euwe played.

Bye John S
  
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Markovich
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Re: Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be
Reply #5 - 05/18/06 at 14:52:52
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lnn2 wrote on 05/18/06 at 11:21:30:
Actually there is an option (iii) with 7. Rc1 (a straight transposition to the Orthodox), but like you said, the Capa maneuver looks adequate in this day and age of the Berlin endgame!  You are right that c5 equalises in regular Rubinstein lines, so perhaps the Rubinstein is the way to 'punish' Black here. But I don't see a really aggresive/straightforward way for White to handle this variation. maybe queenside castling is possible, but Black has good counterplay. So it looks like White should be contented with a small plus.  Undecided


I think it is more correct to say that after Rubinstein's 7. Qc2 versus the Orthodox, 7...c5 is widely held to be best.  Whether it equalizes is a highly debatable point.
  

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Markovich
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Re: Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be
Reply #4 - 05/18/06 at 14:50:51
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Quote:
Hello,

I don't play this for either side, so not sure how helpful by comments will be.
Definitely would not choose option 1) for white the unfashionable Capablanca freeing manover, seems more equal than formerly unfavoured lines like the Berlin endgame.
     Qc2 Rubinstein Orthodox QGD looks like a better try, with black committed early to c6. With other move-orders isn't c5 supposed to equalise?

Bye John S


Yeah.  If Rubinstein's 7. Qc2 is not += when met with 7...c6, then 1. d4 is not a good move.
  

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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be
Reply #3 - 05/18/06 at 11:53:31
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Hello,

There was also a game in Crouch's "How to defend in Chess", were he suggests how white can exploit the slightly premature c6. Will try and see if I can dig it out.

Bye John S
  
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lnn2
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Re: Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be
Reply #2 - 05/18/06 at 11:21:30
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Actually there is an option (iii) with 7. Rc1 (a straight transposition to the Orthodox), but like you said, the Capa maneuver looks adequate in this day and age of the Berlin endgame!  You are right that c5 equalises in regular Rubinstein lines, so perhaps the Rubinstein is the way to 'punish' Black here. But I don't see a really aggresive/straightforward way for White to handle this variation. maybe queenside castling is possible, but Black has good counterplay. So it looks like White should be contented with a small plus.  Undecided
  
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John Simmons(Guest)
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Re: Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be
Reply #1 - 05/18/06 at 10:49:37
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Hello,

I don't play this for either side, so not sure how helpful by comments will be.
Definitely would not choose option 1) for white the unfashionable Capablanca freeing manover, seems more equal than formerly unfavoured lines like the Berlin endgame.
     Qc2 Rubinstein Orthodox QGD looks like a better try, with black committed early to c6. With other move-orders isn't c5 supposed to equalise?

Bye John S
  
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lnn2
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Orthodox QGD ("Semi-Slav Declined"): 5. Bg5 Be7
05/18/06 at 02:32:01
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I've always wondered about the line 1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 Be7 (Semi-Slav Declined?!), which is a current favourite of M. Gurevich and popular at club level. imho this line has an undeserved reputation as being passive and prospectless, I think Black can equalise with careful play. The two traditional antidotes are illustrated by the following games:

(i) Palliser's line:
P.Wells-M. Gurevich, Gibraltar 2006
1. d4 d5 2. c4 c6 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 Be7 6. e3 O-O 7. Bd3 Nbd7 8. O-O
dxc4 9. Bxc4 Nd5 10. Bxe7 Qxe7 11. Ne4 b6 12. Qe2 (12. Ng3 Bb7 13. e4 Nf4 14. Qd2 Ng6 is Palliser's recommendation, but is this so bad for Black?!) Bb7 13. Rac1 c5 14. dxc5 Nxc5 15. Nxc5 bxc5 16. Ba6 Bxa6 17. Qxa6 Rab8 18. b3 Nb4 19. Qe2 Rfd8... (61 moves, 1/2-1/2)

Black could also play with dxc4/b5 like a Meran, which is more commonly encountered at club level: see. A. Skripchenko-J. Houska Ekaterinberg 2006.

(ii) Transposition to Qc2 Rubinstein Orthodox QGD, (a previous suggestion of Markovich and Tracke on this forum)

J. Werle-M. Gurevich, TCh-NED Playoffs 2006
1. Nf3 d5 2. d4 Nf6 3. c4 c6 4. Nc3 e6 5. Bg5 Nbd7 6. e3 Be7 7. Qc2 O-O 8.
Rd1 Kh8 9. a3 Ne8 10. Bf4 f5!? 11. Bd3 Nd6 12. Ne5 Qe8 13. c5 Nf7 14. Nxd7
Bxd7 15. Bg3 Bf6 16. O-O g6 17. f4 Rg8 18. b4 Qe7 19. Kh1 h6 20. b5 b6 21.
bxc6 Bxc6 22. Ne2 Rgc8 23. Rb1 bxc5 24. dxc5 e5 25. fxe5 Nxe5 26. Ba6 Ng4
27. Bd6 Qe8 28. Bxc8 Rxc8 29. Nd4 Ba4 30. Qd3 Qxe3 31. Qa6 Rg8 32. Nf3 Bc2
33. Rbe1 Bd3 34. Qc6 Nf2+ 35. Rxf2 Qxf2 36. Bg3 Qb2 37. Be5 Bxe5 38. Nxe5
Be4 39. Nf3 Qxa3 40. Qf6+ Kh7 (92 moves, 0-1)

Black is not forced to play Stonewall-style of course, and again could instead play for dxc4/b5 like a Meran: see Tkachiev-Graf Tripoli 2004. Black can even try a slow development plan with b6/Bb7/Rc8: see P.H. Nielsen-L. Bruzon Esbjerg 02 (perhaps White should play cxd5 upon Black's b6?!)

Also i think a tranposition to an Exchange QGD with cxd5 is not so good, because of Nxd5 trading some pieces: see S. Volkov-V. Zviagintsev Rus Ch. 2005.

Any thoughts? What is White's best course?  Smiley
  
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