(UTC)
Latest Updates:
  ChessPub Forum › Chess Publishing Openings › 1. d4 d5 2. c4 › Catalan › Catalan move order?
(Moderators: proustiskeen, TN)
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Catalan move order? (Read 19845 times)
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #20 - 10/14/08 at 20:23:57
Post Tools
halfacreek wrote on 10/13/08 at 18:03:51:
What is the advantage/disadvantage to playing d4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, o-o, and then playing for a c4 or e4 break as opposed to playing the real catalan d4, c4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, o-o? I've played both with good results although, I do like the c4 variation better as it tends to encourage black to keep his Queen's Bishop at home.


In my limited experience, Black can also respond:

1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.g3 Bf5

White isn't busted, but you're not going to get your favorite Catalan lines either...
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4958
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #19 - 10/13/08 at 18:15:01
Post Tools
halfacreek wrote on 10/13/08 at 18:03:51:
What is the advantage/disadvantage to playing d4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, o-o, and then playing for a c4 or e4 break as opposed to playing the real catalan d4, c4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, o-o? I've played both with good results although, I do like the c4 variation better as it tends to encourage black to keep his Queen's Bishop at home.


You basically answered your own question; this always reminds me of John Cox's description of the d4/Nf3/g3 approach (without an early ...e6) as "some very tepid anti-Slav g3 fiasco."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
halfacreek
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 32
Joined: 11/27/06
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #18 - 10/13/08 at 18:03:51
Post Tools
What is the advantage/disadvantage to playing d4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, o-o, and then playing for a c4 or e4 break as opposed to playing the real catalan d4, c4, Nf3, g3, Bg2, o-o? I've played both with good results although, I do like the c4 variation better as it tends to encourage black to keep his Queen's Bishop at home.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #17 - 10/07/08 at 00:25:43
Post Tools
No "developments," per se.  I have continued to play 1.Nf3, 2.c4, 3.g3 and see my fair share of Catalans.  Recently, I have been working on the Reti to complement my Catalan play.  I hope to be able to comfortably wheel out both in due course (not at the same time, mind  Wink)...
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMJohnCox
God Member
*****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 1551
Location: London
Joined: 01/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #16 - 10/06/08 at 18:47:39
Post Tools
Nf3 allows 1...c5 likewise. If the Catalan is really what you're after, I guess 1 d4 c3 g3 is as good as any. I think that's Kramnik's order, usually? 1 d4 Nf6 2 Nf3 has implications if their next move is 2...d5 (Vienna, Manhattan, Semi-Tarrasch, no real Exchange QGD, etc). On the other hand of course it annoys Benkoites.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
halfacreek
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 32
Joined: 11/27/06
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #15 - 10/06/08 at 16:44:20
Post Tools
HgMan wrote on 05/24/06 at 03:19:24:
White can plan to play the Catalan along a series of different move orders, starting at move 1 with 1 d4, 1 c4, or 1 Nf3.  It seems as though it boils down to a matter of preference and which lines White wants to avoid.  Does anyone have any particular insight on how White might most sensibly enter into the Catalan?  I've noticed that Gelfand tends to play 1 d4, 2 Nf3.  Presumably, the English (1 c4) runs the risk of running into 1 ... e5.  1 Nf3?


Hgman, has there been more information concerning the various opening move orders for the Catalan since this was originally posted?  I've wondered the same thing and would be interested in reviving this thread and hearing the thoughts on move order preferences and why one may be better or worse than another? I usually begin with d4, c4, Nf3 and g3 but have wondered and been experimenting with Nf3, c4, g3, etc. 

Any insight would be appreciated!   Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #14 - 06/01/06 at 19:13:49
Post Tools
alumbrado wrote on 06/01/06 at 16:05:33:
Other issues that are generally glossed over are
  • the impact of Black lobbing in ...Bb4† in various positions; and
  • Black's various possibilities to transpose from the Closed Catalan to lines of the Stonewall Dutch with ...Ne4 and ...f5


Concerning your first point, there were a couple of interesting articles in recent NIC Yearbooks devoted to Nbd2 and the sac of the c-pawn after ...dxc4, ...c4-c3.  I've tried it in several server-based CC games, in answer to a variety of ...Bb4 ideas, with good success.  One reason I like the Catalan is that White often has the opportunity to try such interesting gambit ideas, and they not infreqently turn out to be sound.   

But in general I agree, the whys and wherefors of ...Bb4+, which has been inordinately attractive to my own opponents, are strange and confusing.   In one high-level CC game (the actual mail, that time) I faced 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. g3 d5  4. Nf3 dxc4  5. Bg2 Bb4+  6. Bd2 a5!? and countered with 7. Na3!? -- winning nicely, though my opponent's subsequent play was not the best.  Those Na3 ideas in the Catalan are so much fun, you know.

There are even those Blacks who play 1. d4 e6  2. c4 Bb4+.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #13 - 06/01/06 at 18:54:37
Post Tools
[quote author=Uberdeker link=1148440764/0#11 date=1149178049]The history books tell us that the sequence 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 e6 ; 3. g3 was invented by Tartakower when the organisers of a tournament offered him a handsome sum to come up with a novel opening. At that time the Nimzo/Queen's Indian duo had become a very popular way of meeting 1. d4, so this hit the spot.

But I can't help feeling that XT conned those sponsers with his move order! 
Wouldn't they have been less enthusiastic if he'd told them that his find was just a condensation of 1. d4 d5 ; 2. c4 e6 ; 3. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 4. g3 ,  1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 c5 ; 3. d5 e6 ; 4. g3 and 1. c4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 Ktf6 (or 1. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 2; c4 c5 etc) ; 3. g3 e6 ; 4. d4 , I wonder!?

So maybe the confusion surrounding this variation can actually be explained by its shady birth!

You've got to hand it him. XT was a sly fox...                                             
[/quote]

I believe that what the history books actually say is that the move order 1. d4, 2. g3 was invented by Tartakover.  And the way I understand it, it was more of a favor than something done for money.   

A problem with Tartakover's original move order is that Black's QB can come out.  Black can, for example, adopt a London setup.  That's why g3 nowadays is normally withheld until Black's e-pawn goes to e6.  The ingenious Tartakover deserves some credit for dreaming up a fianchettoed white KB in the QGD, particularly since White's play turns out to be rather good.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #12 - 06/01/06 at 16:36:38
Post Tools
alumbrado wrote on 06/01/06 at 16:05:33:
Other issues that are generally glossed over are
  • the impact of Black lobbing in ...Bb4† in various positions; and
  • Black's various possibilities to transpose from the Closed Catalan to lines of the Stonewall Dutch with ...Ne4 and ...f5


I don't have it with me to check, but I seem to remember that Dunnington's Winning with the Catalan offered some discussion of inconvenient Bb4+s.  But I can't be sure.  It's also been several years since I looked at it, so I don't recall if Dunnington touched on the Dutch lines at all.

It is a bit frustrating, though, to have authors say that they are dealing only with 1 d4 d5 2 c4 e6 3 Nf3 Nf6 4 g4 or 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 e6 3 g3 (and typically without ... Bb4+).  It strikes me that the Catalan qualifies as more of a system than an opening.  As such, one would think that some discussion of move orders would be rather important...
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Uberdecker
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 641
Joined: 03/21/06
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #11 - 06/01/06 at 16:07:29
Post Tools
The history books tell us that the sequence 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 e6 ; 3. g3 was invented by Tartakower when the organisers of a tournament offered him a handsome sum to come up with a novel opening. At that time the Nimzo/Queen's Indian duo had become a very popular way of meeting 1. d4, so this hit the spot.

But I can't help feeling that XT conned those sponsers with his move order! 
Wouldn't they have been less enthusiastic if he'd told them that his find was just a condensation of 1. d4 d5 ; 2. c4 e6 ; 3. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 4. g3 ,  1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. c4 c5 ; 3. d5 e6 ; 4. g3 and 1. c4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 Ktf6 (or 1. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 2; c4 c5 etc) ; 3. g3 e6 ; 4. d4 , I wonder!?

So maybe the confusion surrounding this variation can actually be explained by its shady birth!

You've got to hand it him. XT was a sly fox...                                             
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #10 - 06/01/06 at 16:05:33
Post Tools
Other issues that are generally glossed over are
  • the impact of Black lobbing in ...Bb4† in various positions; and
  • Black's various possibilities to transpose from the Closed Catalan to lines of the Stonewall Dutch with ...Ne4 and ...f5
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #9 - 06/01/06 at 15:46:06
Post Tools
alumbrado wrote on 05/25/06 at 19:21:08:
Markovich wrote on 05/25/06 at 18:52:07:
HgMan wrote on 05/24/06 at 03:19:24:
White can plan to play the Catalan along a series of different move orders, starting at move 1 with 1 d4, 1 c4, or 1 Nf3.  It seems as though it boils down to a matter of preference and which lines White wants to avoid.  Does anyone have any particular insight on how White might most sensibly enter into the Catalan?  I've noticed that Gelfand tends to play 1 d4, 2 Nf3.  Presumably, the English (1 c4) runs the risk of running into 1 ... e5.  1 Nf3?


I don't think that the relative merits of 1. d4, 2. c4 versus 1. d4  2. Nf3,  1. Nf3  2. c4, or 1. c4 is one that interracts too much with one's intention to play the Catalan.  Personally I think 1. d4 is the strongest move on the board, certainly the best way of trying to get a Queen's Gambit.   1. Nf3 c5  2. c4 commits one to a Symmetrical English and allows various hedgehog ideas, including the Accelerated Dragon.  This seems to me to be a high price to pay for the extra flexibility.  Likewise if 1. c4 then White has to face not only 1...c5 but also 1...e5.

But a very key question for the prospective Catalan player is what to do after 1...Nf6, 2...e6 if White's pawn is alread on d4.  If his knight  is on f3 by the third move, he must be ready to confront the Markovich6.   The only way to play the Catalan and avoid the Markovich6 is to play 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. g3, a move order that then runs into 3...c5.  This either leads to a Symmetrical English where Black is committed to ...e6, or to the not-very exciting fianchetto Benoni.  I suspect the former is objectively the better way for White to try for the win, but I'm not sure if it's better than just playing 3. Nf3 and allowing the Markovich6 (and, presumably, playing the Main Line Benoni).


Thank you, Markovich, for a beautiful summary of the move order issues with which I have grappled over the years ... too bad there isn't a clear-cut solution!


You're welcome.  Decency prevents my proposing here some apt afterlife torments the for those authors of Catalan books who have utterly ignored these questions -- which is essentially all of them.
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2330
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #8 - 05/26/06 at 19:16:53
Post Tools
Thanks for the good comments.  Does 1 d4, 2 g3 have any independent merit?
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
alumbrado
God Member
*****
Offline


Esse quam videri bonus
malebo

Posts: 1418
Location: London
Joined: 02/17/03
Gender: Male
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #7 - 05/25/06 at 19:21:08
Post Tools
Markovich wrote on 05/25/06 at 18:52:07:
HgMan wrote on 05/24/06 at 03:19:24:
White can plan to play the Catalan along a series of different move orders, starting at move 1 with 1 d4, 1 c4, or 1 Nf3.  It seems as though it boils down to a matter of preference and which lines White wants to avoid.  Does anyone have any particular insight on how White might most sensibly enter into the Catalan?  I've noticed that Gelfand tends to play 1 d4, 2 Nf3.  Presumably, the English (1 c4) runs the risk of running into 1 ... e5.  1 Nf3?


I don't think that the relative merits of 1. d4, 2. c4 versus 1. d4  2. Nf3,  1. Nf3  2. c4, or 1. c4 is one that interracts too much with one's intention to play the Catalan.  Personally I think 1. d4 is the strongest move on the board, certainly the best way of trying to get a Queen's Gambit.   1. Nf3 c5  2. c4 commits one to a Symmetrical English and allows various hedgehog ideas, including the Accelerated Dragon.  This seems to me to be a high price to pay for the extra flexibility.  Likewise if 1. c4 then White has to face not only 1...c5 but also 1...e5.

But a very key question for the prospective Catalan player is what to do after 1...Nf6, 2...e6 if White's pawn is alread on d4.  If his knight  is on f3 by the third move, he must be ready to confront the HgMan9.   The only way to play the Catalan and avoid the HgMan9 is to play 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. g3, a move order that then runs into 3...c5.  This either leads to a Symmetrical English where Black is committed to ...e6, or to the not-very exciting fianchetto Benoni.  I suspect the former is objectively the better way for White to try for the win, but I'm not sure if it's better than just playing 3. Nf3 and allowing the HgMan9 (and, presumably, playing the Main Line Benoni).


Thank you, Markovich, for a beautiful summary of the move order issues with which I have grappled over the years ... too bad there isn't a clear-cut solution!
  
If sometimes we fly too close to the sun, at least this shows we are spreading our wings.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Markovich
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 6099
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Joined: 09/17/04
Re: Catalan move order?
Reply #6 - 05/25/06 at 18:52:07
Post Tools
HgMan wrote on 05/24/06 at 03:19:24:
White can plan to play the Catalan along a series of different move orders, starting at move 1 with 1 d4, 1 c4, or 1 Nf3.  It seems as though it boils down to a matter of preference and which lines White wants to avoid.  Does anyone have any particular insight on how White might most sensibly enter into the Catalan?  I've noticed that Gelfand tends to play 1 d4, 2 Nf3.  Presumably, the English (1 c4) runs the risk of running into 1 ... e5.  1 Nf3?


I don't think that the relative merits of 1. d4, 2. c4 versus 1. d4  2. Nf3,  1. Nf3  2. c4, or 1. c4 is one that interracts too much with one's intention to play the Catalan.  Personally I think 1. d4 is the strongest move on the board, certainly the best way of trying to get a Queen's Gambit.   1. Nf3 c5  2. c4 commits one to a Symmetrical English and allows various hedgehog ideas, including the Accelerated Dragon.  This seems to me to be a high price to pay for the extra flexibility.  Likewise if 1. c4 then White has to face not only 1...c5 but also 1...e5.

But a very key question for the prospective Catalan player is what to do after 1...Nf6, 2...e6 if White's pawn is alread on d4.  If his knight  is on f3 by the third move, he must be ready to confront the QID.   The only way to play the Catalan and avoid the QID is to play 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. g3, a move order that then runs into 3...c5.  This either leads to a Symmetrical English where Black is committed to ...e6, or to the not-very exciting fianchetto Benoni.  I suspect the former is objectively the better way for White to try for the win, but I'm not sure if it's better than just playing 3. Nf3 and allowing the QID (and, presumably, playing the Main Line Benoni).
  
The Great Oz has spoken!
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Topic Tools
‹ Previous Topic | Next Topic ›
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo
 
  « Board Index ‹ Board Top  

ChessPub Forum » Powered by YaBB 2.6.12!
YaBB Forum Software © 2000-2025. All Rights Reserved.

Valid RSS Valid XHTML Valid CSS Powered by Perl Source Forge