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Normal Topic Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Time?? (Read 5189 times)
Willempie
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Re: Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Tim
Reply #7 - 12/23/06 at 11:46:36
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Dinomike100 wrote on 05/27/06 at 21:37:43:
This isn't really an important post, but I was just wanted to know if my basic opinion of two bishop checkmates is correct.  I think I have gotten my tactics up to around 1500 level and today I realized that I can do B + B + K vs K checkmates on tactics alone (and knowing that I should get the opponents king into a corner).  I couldn't do this when I was around 1300, even after skimming over an explanation of the technique.  But for some reason, I have seen some websites and books for beginners that go into detail about this checkmating technique.  Is there any reason for a beginner to spend several hours memorizing the techniques for this checkmate, when they could just do it without technique once their tactics get good enough?

You dont need several hours for it. I taught it to kids at above basic level within the hour. The only thing is to repeat it in exercises every once in a while. Eg when players had finished their game too quick I would let them play these types of endgames against each other.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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sssthepro
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Re: Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Tim
Reply #6 - 12/23/06 at 09:01:42
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There is no tactices in this endgames, just techniques like controlling squares, forcing the king to the corner, waiting moves etc
  
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Skaro
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Re: Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Tim
Reply #5 - 05/28/06 at 03:29:59
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Why not play a computer once each day BNK v K and BBK v K reducing the allocated time as you become more proficient?
These endings are no doubt rare but getting to the point where executing them becomes second nature is good insurance.
You never know when hitting pay dirt might depend on either effecting the above mates or surviving them.




  
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Dinomike100
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Re: Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Tim
Reply #4 - 05/28/06 at 00:42:55
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I suppose the only point I am making is that at a lower tactical level (1300-ish) I couldn't get the 2 bishop checkmate at all, even after reading how to do it.  Then once I got my tactics up a bit, I could do it with just the knowledge that the king is checkmated in corner.  So my point is that it may be enough to just say that the king is checkmated in the corner and spend time training tactics rather than studying this position.  That is, learning this checkmate without sufficient tactics would result in knowing how to do it and a slight increase in tactical ability.  But studying lots of standard tactical problems will result in knowing how to checkmate with 2 bishops eventually anyway, so why bother memorizing in the first place?  I agree that the knight + bishop checkmate does need to be studied, since that is probably harder to get through osmosis.  Also, I think that rook endgames and pawn endgames are better uses of endgame study time than either 2 bishops or knight and bishop checkmates.  The rook eg and pawn eg occur often, both of the checkmates occur very rarely.      
  
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Re: Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Tim
Reply #3 - 05/28/06 at 00:13:44
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First of all learning to play the endgame certainly isn't a waste of time. I've been a trainer for quite a long time. I can remember the time when a pupil was required to learn the B+Kn endgame in order to pass an 'exam'.

In my opinion a trainer can spend the time needed to teach this endgame more usefull.
For instance to teach severall basic rook endgame techniques.
For the B+Kn endgame it should be sufficient to show how B+Kn have to be posted in order to keep a K imprisoned, and how to mate a K that has been imprisioned in the appropriate courner. This should be sufficeint to show how B and Kn can work together.
On the other hand the technique to get a K from the 'wrong' corner to the 'right' corner, is just a long trick, that has to be memorised. IMHO this does not add much to the understanding of practical endgame play.
  
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Dinomike100
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Re: Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Tim
Reply #2 - 05/27/06 at 21:52:13
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Thank you for replying to my post. 

I definately agree that the endgame is important, especially pawn endings and pawn and rook, and basic checkmates such as Q + K vs K and R + K vs K.

I don't really think that N + B + K vs K is a basic checkmate.  I could be wrong since I never looked into it, but I have always heard it described as being drawn out and complicated.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Tim
Reply #1 - 05/27/06 at 21:45:48
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I strongly disagree with the notion that learning basic endgame technique such as 2B+K vs K or N+B+K vs K is a waste of time.  Still, the argument apparently needs to be made again.

By learning these two basic endgames in particular, a player learns a great deal about how the minor pieces work together and how they don't.  When playing in simuls, I often finish one of my last games by promoting to B+N vs K to demonstrate how it works.  It also stimulates the "little grey cells" as Poirot called them.  (However, if they were actually grey it would mean that no blood was getting to them.  Oh well.)

Anyway,  the more technique a player knows, the better he or she will be.  The best examples are pawn endgames because they occur so frequently.  If a player knows what pawn endings are won or lost, that player can head to such positions before his or her opponent has even begun to calculate them!  Talk about a big advantage!   

If you learn the endgame thoroughly I can guarantee that you won't stay in the 1500 range for long.  The ability to calculate the endgames and to reach known winning/drawn positions alone will boost you out of the Class C range.
  
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Dinomike100
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Learning B + B + K vs K Technique Waste of Time??
05/27/06 at 21:37:43
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This isn't really an important post, but I was just wanted to know if my basic opinion of two bishop checkmates is correct.  I think I have gotten my tactics up to around 1500 level and today I realized that I can do B + B + K vs K checkmates on tactics alone (and knowing that I should get the opponents king into a corner).  I couldn't do this when I was around 1300, even after skimming over an explanation of the technique.  But for some reason, I have seen some websites and books for beginners that go into detail about this checkmating technique.  Is there any reason for a beginner to spend several hours memorizing the techniques for this checkmate, when they could just do it without technique once their tactics get good enough?
  
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