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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C17: French Winawer, 5.Qg4 (Read 10091 times)
dom
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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #15 - 06/05/07 at 18:45:24
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Right! the line is: 7..Ng6 8.Bd3 oo 9.Bxg6 fxg6 10.oo Be7
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #14 - 06/05/07 at 07:25:14
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dom wrote on 06/04/07 at 22:15:54:
If you look at games on www.chesslive.de, you'll see only bad results for White in line: 8.Bd3 Ng6 9.Bxg6 fxg6 10.oo Be7 11.Be3 Nc6 12.Nxc6 bxc6. If you feel White has one best line, propose it!



There's already Ng6 at move seven
  

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dom
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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #13 - 06/04/07 at 22:15:54
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If you look at games on www.chesslive.de, you'll see only bad results for White in line: 8.Bd3 Ng6 9.Bxg6 fxg6 10.oo Be7 11.Be3 Nc6 12.Nxc6 bxc6. If you feel White has one best line, propose it!
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #12 - 06/04/07 at 20:20:31
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dom wrote on 06/02/07 at 09:41:54:
Just to mention it...

After 7...Ng6,instead of 8.Bb5+ other moves can be played but Black has already equalized:


It's not obvious espacially after 7...Ng6 8.Bd3!?
  

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dom
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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #11 - 06/02/07 at 09:41:54
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Just to mention it...

One improvement over the game is 7...Ng6!  (position given in McDonald&Harley book) 8.Bb5+ Bd7 9.oo Bxc3! 10.bxc3 Qc7 (with two pawns under attack, White must protect at least one) 11.Bd2 oo

because if 7...Qc7 8.Bb5 Bd7 9.oo Bxc3 like in the game, White can try 10.bxc3 (instead of 10.Bxd7+) Ng6 (10..Qxc3 11.Rb1) 11.Bxd7 (11.Bd2 oo -/+) Nxd7 (11...Qxd7 12.Ba3) 12.Nb5  . Analyze to be checked

After 7...Ng6,instead of 8.Bb5+ other moves can be played but Black has already equalized:

8.Bd2 Short-Farago,Banja Luka 1985 (BCO) ; Movsesian-Shaked,Zagan 1997 (Tiemann and Watson)

8.Nf3?!  Bxc3+ (8...Nc6 9.Bd2 d4 10.Ne4 Bxd2+ 11.Nxd2 and now 11..oo (Dolmatov and Zlotnik) instead of 11..Qa5!? 12.ooo! Qxa2 13.h4 Kouzmine-Dolmatov,Minsk 1982 (BCO and Zlotnik)) 9.bxc3 Qx7 =+

8.f4 (Dolmatov's advice according to Zlotnik) ... to be analyzed

8.Bd3 Qc7 (or 8..oo with play like in Hertneck line of Qg4-oo Winawer) 9.oo Ncb6 10.Nb5 Qe7 11.Bg5 f6 12.exf6 gxf6 13.c3 Ba5 14.Bxg6+ hxg6 15.Bf4 unclear Berry-Peterson,corr 1989 (Tiemann)





  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #10 - 06/01/07 at 20:52:49
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realpolitik wrote on 05/31/07 at 23:29:10:
Klick wrote on 05/01/07 at 09:32:27:
Black does have 6.. cxd4

[Event "WYb18"]
[Site "Halkidiki GRE"]
[Date "2003.??.??"]
[White "Friedel,J"]
[Black "Mamedyarov,S"]
[Round "8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2328"]
[BlackElo "2595"]
[ECO "C17"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. Qg4
Ne7 6. Nf3 cxd4 7. Nxd4 Qc7 8. Bb5+ Bd7 9. O-O
Bxc3 10. Bxd7+ Nxd7 11. Nb5 Qb6 12. Nxc3 O-O 13. Re1
Rfc8 14. a4 Rc4 15. Qh3 Rac8 16. Nb5 Nf5 17. g4
Rxc2 18. Rf1 Nd4 19. Be3 Ne2+ 20. Kh1 d4  0-1


Correct. Thats why White should play 6dc!?


Not inevitably! In this game 10.bc3 is better than 10.Bxd7+
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #9 - 05/31/07 at 23:29:10
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Klick wrote on 05/01/07 at 09:32:27:
Black does have 6.. cxd4

[Event "WYb18"]
[Site "Halkidiki GRE"]
[Date "2003.??.??"]
[White "Friedel,J"]
[Black "Mamedyarov,S"]
[Round "8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2328"]
[BlackElo "2595"]
[ECO "C17"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. Qg4
Ne7 6. Nf3 cxd4 7. Nxd4 Qc7 8. Bb5+ Bd7 9. O-O
Bxc3 10. Bxd7+ Nxd7 11. Nb5 Qb6 12. Nxc3 O-O 13. Re1
Rfc8 14. a4 Rc4 15. Qh3 Rac8 16. Nb5 Nf5 17. g4
Rxc2 18. Rf1 Nd4 19. Be3 Ne2+ 20. Kh1 d4  0-1


Correct. Thats why White should play 6dc!?
  
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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #8 - 05/01/07 at 12:50:40
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I don't know if anyone has mentioned that an entire chapter is devoted to this line in Watson's French: Dangerous Weapons.  Like all Watson's books of which I am aware, this one is full of interesting and original ideas, and well worth the money even if you don't play either the French or 1. e4.
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #7 - 05/01/07 at 09:32:27
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Black does have 6.. cxd4

[Event "WYb18"]
[Site "Halkidiki GRE"]
[Date "2003.??.??"]
[White "Friedel,J"]
[Black "Mamedyarov,S"]
[Round "8"]
[Result "0-1"]
[WhiteElo "2328"]
[BlackElo "2595"]
[ECO "C17"]

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nc3 Bb4 4. e5 c5 5. Qg4
Ne7 6. Nf3 cxd4 7. Nxd4 Qc7 8. Bb5+ Bd7 9. O-O
Bxc3 10. Bxd7+ Nxd7 11. Nb5 Qb6 12. Nxc3 O-O 13. Re1
Rfc8 14. a4 Rc4 15. Qh3 Rac8 16. Nb5 Nf5 17. g4
Rxc2 18. Rf1 Nd4 19. Be3 Ne2+ 20. Kh1 d4  0-1
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #6 - 06/07/06 at 10:37:47
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The point was that after Ra6, black still has Ra8 since Rxc6 allows Rxa1+, picking up a rook for nothing. I haven't checked it with fritz, but it seemed that anything other than Ra7 or Ra5 allowed black to win the open a-file.
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #5 - 06/06/06 at 10:35:33
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CraigEvans wrote on 06/06/06 at 09:02:48:


Ra7+ was played solely because both me and my opponent were in time trouble - if I had had 15 or more minutes (or my opponent did), I would have more than likely played in another way, although I could see no way of keeping control of the a-file. However, I did feel that after Ra7 BxR QxR Ke8 Rc3 I may be able to get some drawing chances - probably incorrectly. I suppose the alternative would be 25.Ra5 Ra8 26.b4 Rxa5 27.ba, but I felt the a-pawn would eventually fall and I would eventually be losing this position.


I don’t have a board in front of me. So I may be way off mark. But, yesterday, I thought, Ra6 (gaining a tempo on c6 Queen) followed by Bb4! to decoy the black bishop from a7  control and then playing Ra7 might have lead to serious advantage. I didn’t analyse it further, though. Of course (assuming I’m correct) that’s not something you can work it out on time pressure. Like my son complains, commenting on mistakes is easy. Playing is difficult!
  

CastleRock
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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #4 - 06/06/06 at 09:02:48
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Thanks to both of you.

Dom, thanks for your analysis, I will try to track down a copy of the relevant NIC yearbook. It's strange - both myself and my opponent felt white was just better after 11.Nh4 - he hadn't considered 11...d4 and I dismissed it on the basis of either 12.Na4 or 12.Ne4 (I can't remember if there was something wrong with the latter, but I certainly spent some time on this move and felt that white should be okay).   

Castlerock - the opening was prepared the night before while drinking copious (3+ bottles) of wine, so looking at the theory of the lines will be a must if I plan to continue playing the line (and I see no reason not to, since I came out of the opening well). I'm not currently a subscriber to the French section, but a lot of people seem to think highly of it so I may well change that in future. 
I had considered the Qg3 idea, but my opponent seemed more than happy to give up the g7 pawn in most variations. I hadn't looked at the Qg3-d3 idea after the bishop exchange on b5, I think I was worried about giving black a tempo with Qg3 Nf5, and felt that the Qe1 supported b4/Bb4 thrusts, which I sadly never got around to.

Ra7+ was played solely because both me and my opponent were in time trouble - if I had had 15 or more minutes (or my opponent did), I would have more than likely played in another way, although I could see no way of keeping control of the a-file. However, I did feel that after Ra7 BxR QxR Ke8 Rc3 I may be able to get some drawing chances - probably incorrectly. I suppose the alternative would be 25.Ra5 Ra8 26.b4 Rxa5 27.ba, but I felt the a-pawn would eventually fall and I would eventually be losing this position.

Ahh well, at least the game told me more about my weaknesses than some games I've lost (or even won) this last season. A few months now and hopefully I can come back stronger for next year.

Best wishes,
Craig
  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #3 - 06/05/06 at 16:22:14
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I'm not getting into the opening theory of the line you played. Theory is not the reason for the result, obviously. I have two points.

1) I suggest, you go over 4...Ne7 variation in Winaver eBook, if not already. You would have been better off playing Qg3, gaining a tempo on g7 pawn and then playing Bg5. Position was ready for this after Qxh4. Even, instead of Qe1, Qg3-d3 would have pressurised Queenside quickly.

2) Your Ra7+ appears to be a blunder. I don't think you have any compensation if black played ...Ke8 instead of blocking the check with ...Qc7. Perhaps b5 pawn. But, that may not be sufficient.

My 2c.
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #2 - 06/04/06 at 10:59:40
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Another try for White is 6.dxc5! (Murey/Spassky variation)

6...Nbc6 7.Bd2 Nf5 (7...Nf5 8.Bd3!? ; 7...Bxc5 8.Nf3 oo 9.Bd3 f5 10.exf6 Rxf6 11.Bg5 Batygin-Khasin,Lenigrad 1954 (Estrin et ChessMail)) 8.Nd3 oo 9.Bd3 Bxc5 10.oo (10.Bg5? Nxe5!!) f6=

6...Bxc3+ 7.bxc3 and original play (White position seems difficult because bad pawn structure but two bishops gives active play)

Some of those lines are given in NiC YB 66
  

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Re: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
Reply #1 - 06/04/06 at 10:33:56
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The line is analyzed in NiC YB 66 with the game reference: Leko-Hertneck,Moscow 1994. 

In the analysis, Pliester gives a ? mark to 11.Nh4 

The better move I recorded for the position  is 11.oo!? and no analysis after that move.

11.Nh4? d4 12.Nxf5 (12.Na4 Leko-Hertneck) exf5 13.Na4 Ng6 (the idea behind Nce7) 14.Qf3! Qe7!? 15.Qe2 Bb4 unclear

11.Qg5 Qb6 (11...Bd7 Dom) 12.Na4 Bxf2+ 13.Ke2 Qc6 14.Nc3 Qb6 Draw

Black can try oo earlier: 7... oo or 8 ... oo. For example: 7.Bd2 oo 8.dxc5 f5! (Uhlmann, given on chessmail web site)

I didn't really trust Bd2: yes, White prepares long castle and try to attack on Black's kingside, but defence is easy for Black. 

Another surprise-weapon is 7.a3 where 7....Bxc3+ 8.bxc3 clearly leads to Winawer variations, but Black can exploit the fact queen is no more on first rank with 7...Qa5 or 7...Ba5





  

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C17: French Winawer, 5.Qg4
06/01/06 at 13:54:04
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Can anyone let me know what the current state of play is with the line 1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.Qg4!?
In the 4NCL last weekend, I prepared this for my opponent (admittedly over several bottles of wine), and achieved an edge out of the opening quite comfortably (my opponent played a known line, although not the best one I think), although I lost the game eventually. I was actually quite disappointed with the defeat since I felt I'd played well, and although I can always put down the defeat to my opponent's extra class, it is irritating when I can't really find any huge improvements in my play, and just a series of inaccurate moves cost me the game:

Evans, C (1954) v Pedersen, C (2175)
4NCL Div 4, Round 11
1.e4 e6 2.d4 d5 3.Nc3 Bb4 4.e5 c5 5.Qg4!? Ne7 6.Nf3 Nbc6 7.Bd2! [A surprisingly sharp continuation – white intends queenside castling, and to make the bishop on b4 look incorrectly placed] Nf5!? [My opponent had no idea of what to play in this position, which is reflected in his thinking time – over 30 minutes already!] 8.dxc5 Bxc5 9.Bd3! h5! 10.Qf4 Nce7! [My opponent has now used nearly 70 minutes, but this is all still theory – black now sets a trap since after 11.Na4?? Ng6! 12.Qg5 Be7 the queen is lost.] 11.Nh4! [Oh yes! My opponent now thinks white has a huge advantage, and while I’m not sure it’s so clear, there is no doubting white’s superiority] Nxh4 12.Qxh4 a6! [A rarely-played move, but a logical and strong one – black creates a luft for his Bc5, prepares …b5 in case of queenside castling, and also prepares support for his coming manoeuvre if white allows it] 13.O-O?! [From here on, I didn’t really make any huge mistakes but a series of ‘inaccuracies’ cost me the game. C’est la vie – I suppose that’s why he’s 2200 and a classy player, and I’m a patzer!] Bd7 14.Kh1?! [The plan looks logical, preparing f4 to support the e5 pawn, before a queenside pawn storm, but it just seems far too slow. 14.a4 looks like the ‘accurate’ move, preventing black’s plan and deterring queenside castling, where white must have an edge.] Qc7! 15.f4 O-O-O! 16.Ne2? [Now 16.a4 seems necessary] Bb5! [Black reckons that gaining the f5 square for his knight is worth the ruining of his queenside pawns. Indeed, white should probably ignore this move and play something like 17.Rc1, threatening c4 to open lines.] 17.Bxb5 axb5 18.Qe1?! [Another inaccuracy – I was worried about 18…Nf5 and wanted to meet this with 19.Ng3, but of course this allows 19…Nd4 which seems to give black the advantage in all variations. The other point was to prepare both a b4 thrust and the coming queen transfer to a1, but neither of these seem sufficient for an edge. Still it’s hard to suggest an alternative try for white here.] Nf5 20.a4 bxa4 21.Rxa4 Kd7!! [A fantastic move which I’d missed, looking to take over the a-file] 22.Qa1 h4! [Black now threatens nasty things with 23…Ng3+] 23.h3 Qc6 24.Rf3 b5!! [The point – white can no longer play 25.Ra6 because of 25…Ra8!! taking over the a-file after all and winning time. Both of us are now in time trouble and so I went for the messiest continuation] 25.Ra7+!? Bxa7 26.Qxa7+ Qc7!? [My opponent had missed that this line allows white to win his exchange back. However, the endgame which arises is clearly better for black, whereas the alternative variation, in time trouble, allows white good counterchances: 26…Ke8 27.Rc3!! Qa8 28.Qc5 and white has definite compensation] 27.Qxc7+ Kxc7 28.Ba5+ Kb7 29.Bxd8 Rxd8 30.Ra3?? [This obvious-looking move, contesting the open a-file, appears to be the losing move. 30.Kg1, removing the white king from his tomb, appears to be the best chance, although even here black has the edge. Where did I lose this game – answers on a postcard please.] Rc8! 31.c3?! Rc4! 32.Rb3 Re4! 33.Ng1 [A sorry admission of defeat] Ng3+! 34.Kh2 Kb6 and I resigned in a couple more moves.
« Last Edit: 07/30/11 at 14:47:02 by dom »  

"Give a man a pawn, and he'll smell a rat. Give a man a piece, and he'll smell a patzer." - Me.

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