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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto (Read 12626 times)
an ordinary chessplayer
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #21 - 06/21/17 at 17:27:10
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You are right about the Soltis book. I'm getting old. Now I wonder how much of what else I wrote is not true.
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #20 - 06/21/17 at 17:22:44
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Well, that Chameleon Sicilian book came out a decade earlier ('82).
I'm reminded of a game in which Fischer played it in 1970, against Bertok.
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #19 - 06/21/17 at 17:11:33
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FreeRepublic wrote on 06/21/17 at 00:08:42:
Another way is to proceed directly with ...d5. For example:
(Fischer - Spassky, m(23) 1992)
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. Nge2 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. exd5 exd5 6. d3 Nf6
7. Bg2 Be7 8. Bg5 d4 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. Ne4 Be7 11. Nf4 O-O
12. O-O Re8 ...

This ...Nc6 ...d5 variation allows annoying white pressure. If black fools around with ...a7-a6, ...d7-d6, and later plays ...d6-d5, the pressure could easily become overwhelming. Willempie's earlier comment that black should wait for f2-f4 was spot on. Then after ...d6-d5, e4xd5 ...e6xd5, white has lost the possibilities of Bg5 and Nf4. After f2-f4 ...d6-d5, white should keep the tension.

The old Schwarz Sizilianische Verteidigung gave good coverage of this line. I had the 1966 edition. Starting around 1970 or so they split the Sicilian into multiple volumes, I had some of them but not anything on the closed. This Fischer - Spassky game was annotated by a respectable grandmaster in Chess Life, but his suggested pawn grab was already refuted by Schwarz in 1966. Russian 1970s theory was that black should omit ...Nb8-c6 to have ...Nb8-d7-f6 defending the kingside. That finesse had been played by Polugaevsky, Korchnoi, and Kasparov. My understanding was that Fischer had access to the as-yet-unpublished Soltis book on the Chameleon Sicilian (and the one on the Exchange Ruy). After 3.Nge2 Nc6 4.g3 Spassky probably already regretted his third move.

Something else to keep in mind after ...d5 e4xd5: if black plays ...Nf6xd5, then Nc3xd5 ...e6xd5 is even better for white. (e.g. black's Nf6 is better than white's Nc3)
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #18 - 06/21/17 at 03:39:14
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Thanks for pointing out that game. I missed it. Chessgames.com lists the opening as A07, but it's one of the lines we are talking about. Here it is:

[Event "Fischer - Spassky"]
[Site "Sveti Stefan & Belgrade YUG"]
[Date "1992.10.15"]
[EventDate "1992.09.02"]
[Round "20"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Boris Spassky"]
[Black "Robert James Fischer"]
[ECO "A07"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "85"]

1. e4 c5 2. Ne2 Nf6 3. Nbc3 e6 4. g3 Nc6 5. Bg2 Be7 6. O-O d6 7. d3 a6 8. a3 Qc7 9. f4 b5 10. Kh1 O-O 11. Be3 Bb7 12. Bg1 Rab8 13. h3 Ba8 14. g4 b4 15. axb4 cxb4 16. Na4 Nd7 17. Qd2 Rfc8 18. b3 a5 19. g5 Bf8 20. Ra2 Ne7 21. Nd4 g6 22. Nb2 Bg7 23. Nc4 d5 24. Nxa5 dxe4 25. dxe4 e5 26. Ne2 exf4 27. Nxf4 Ne5 28. Nd3 Rb5 29. Nxe5 Qxe5 30. Nc4 Qxg5 31. Be3 Qh4 32. Nd6 Bc3 33. Qf2 Qxf2 34. Rxf2 Rbb8 35. Nxc8 Rxc8 36. Ra7 Kf8 37. Bh6+ Ke8 38. Bg5 f6 39. Bxf6 Bxf6 40. Rxf6 Bc6 41. Kg1 Bd7 42. Rd6 Bc6 43. Bf1 1-0
« Last Edit: 06/21/17 at 07:58:11 by GMTonyKosten »  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #17 - 06/21/17 at 01:42:53
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In game 20 Fischer was Black and went with the "Scheveningen" approach (and lost).
(ECO had that as += after 14. g4, but some earlier deviations by Black, e.g. 12...Rfd8 instead of 12...Rab8, as leading to unclear or equal.)
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #16 - 06/21/17 at 00:08:42
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dsanchez wrote on 06/08/06 at 17:57:39:
2 times my opponents have played:

1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 Nf6!? 4.Bg2 e6.


In an earlier post I gave a game where black played d6 and kept his options open.

Another way is to proceed directly with ...d5. For example:

[Event "Fischer - Spassky"]
[Site "Sveti Stefan & Belgrade YUG"]
[Date "1992.10.21"]
[EventDate "1992.09.02"]
[Round "23"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[White "Robert James Fischer"]
[Black "Boris Spassky"]
[ECO "B23"]
[WhiteElo "?"]
[BlackElo "?"]
[PlyCount "159"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 e6 3. Nge2 Nc6 4. g3 d5 5. exd5 exd5 6. d3 Nf6
7. Bg2 Be7 8. Bg5 d4 9. Bxf6 Bxf6 10. Ne4 Be7 11. Nf4 O-O
12. O-O Re8 13. Qh5 g6 14. Qd5 Bf5 15. Rfe1 Kg7 16. a3 Rc8
17. h3 Qxd5 18. Nxd5 Bf8 19. g4 Be6 20. Nef6 Red8 21. g5 Bd6
22. Re4 Ne7 23. Rh4 Rh8 24. Re1 Nf5 25. Rhe4 h6 26. h4 hxg5
27. hxg5 Rh4 28. Rxh4 Nxh4 29. Re4 Nf5 30. Nf4 Ba2 31. N4d5
Bxd5 32. Nxd5 Kf8 33. Kf1 Re8 34. Rxe8+ Kxe8 35. Nf6+ Kd8
36. Bxb7 Bf4 37. Ne4 Bc1 38. a4 Bxb2 39. Nxc5 Bc1 40. Be4 Bxg5 41. Bxf5 gxf5 42. Nb3 Bf6 43. Kg2 Kd7 44. Kg3 Ke6 45. Na5 Be5+ 46. Kh4 Bf6+ 47. Kh5 Kd5 48. Kh6 Kc5 49. Kh7 Kb4 50. Nc6+ Kc3 51. Kg8 Kxc2 52. Kxf7 Bh8 53. a5 Kxd3 54. a6 Ke2 55. Nxa7 d3 56. Nc6 d2 57. a7 d1=Q 58. a8=Q Qd5+ 59. Kg6 Qe6+ 60. Kh7 Bc3 61. Nd8 Qe7+ 62. Kg6 Qf6+ 63. Kh5 Qh8+ 64. Kg6 Qg7+ 65. Kxf5 Qf6+ 66. Kg4 Qg6+ 67. Kf4 Bd2+ 68. Ke5 Bc3+ 69. Kf4 Qd6+ 70. Kf5 Qd7+ 71. Kg5 Qe7+ 72. Kf5 Qf6+ 73. Kg4 Qg7+ 74. Kf5 Qf6+ 75. Kg4 Qg6+ 76. Kf4 Bd2+ 77. Ke5 Qg5+ 78. Ke6 Qg4+ 79. Kf7 Qd7+ 80. Kg6 1/2-1/2

My memory of this game was a little faulty. I thought the game was Spassky-Fischer. It was Fischer who chose the Closed Sicilian!
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #15 - 06/20/17 at 23:13:05
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I founds some games where both players try to keep their options open for as long as possible. Here is one:

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. g3 Nf6 4. Bg2 e6 5. Nge2 Be7 6. O-O d6 7. d3 Qc7 8. h3 a6 9. g4 h6 10. f4 b5 11. Ng3 Bb7 12. Nce2 Rd8 13. c3 Nh7 14. Be3 Na5 15. Qd2 O-O 16. b3 d5 17. e5 Nc6 18. d4 b4 19. Rac1 bxc3 20. Qxc3 Qd7 21. Rfd1 cxd4 22. Nxd4 Rc8 23. Qb2 Nxd4 24. Bxd4 Qb5 25. Rxc8 Rxc8 26. Rc1 Rxc1+ 27. Qxc1 Qa5 28. Nf1 Nf8 29. Qc3 Bb4 30. Qc2 Ng6 31. f5 Ne7 32. fxe6 fxe6 33. Ng3 Bc6 34. Bf1 Be8 35. Bd3 Nc6 36. Bg6 Qd8 37. Bxe8 Qxe8 38. Ne2 Qd7 39. Bb2 Be7 40. a3 a5 41. Qg6 Bg5 42. Kg2 d4 43. Qe4 d3 44. Nc3 Qb7 45. Qxd3 Nxe5+ 46. Qe4 Qxb3 47. Qxe5 Qxb2+ 48. Kf1 Qc1+ 49. Kg2 Qd2+ 50. Kf1 Kf7 51. Ne4 Qd3+ 52. Kg2 Qe2+ 53. Kg3 Bh4+ 54. Kxh4 Qe1+ 55. Qg3 Qxe4 56. Qc7+ Kg6 57. Qxa5 Qe3 58. Qh5+ Kf6 59. Qe8 g5+
Jorge Bort Emilio (ESP)-Kovacevic Slobodan (SRB) It (cat.4)
0-1 Almassora (Spain) Round 7 2000

While white lost this, it seems he had his chances along the way.   For example early one there was 14f5!? or 15b4!?

This e6 d6 Be7 (Schevenigen?) response to the Closed Sicilian seems to provide Closed Sicilian type play that is unbooked for now. Sit down and put on your thinking cap!
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #14 - 06/20/17 at 21:15:40
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dsanchez wrote on 06/08/06 at 17:57:39:
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 Nf6!? 4.Bg2 e6.

Very disappointing.  Don't these guys read?

Does anyone else run into this?


Great question. I've run across this too, and have been surprised by the solidity of black's game. My experience runs in line with many of the comments:

a) An early Be3 can work out badly because black has d5 threatening d4.
b) White should keep an eye open for an IQP position (...d5 exd ....exd d4). The problem is that black can play d6 and await further developments.
c) White can think about a general king side pawn advance: f4 g4-5, etc. But black may strike back in the center at an inconvenient moment.
d) White can think of central/king-side play with f4 to be followed by e5 or f5.
e) White can develop his game, then play d4 offering an open Sicilian type game.

In short, I have wrestled with this too and have no answer.

Still, it helps to think it over - and improvise in your next game, depending on your opponent's configuration of pieces and pawns.

To stay true to the Closed Sicilian spirit, I might start with Bg2 Nge2 0-0 (holding the d pawn back) and await further developments. However, Black has noncommital moves too (Nc6, d6, e6, Nf6, Qc7, a6, and perhaps Nd4).

Next time, I'll try to anticipate anything special from black as the game proceeds and, when able, work in positive white moves (f4, or h3-g4) and/or developmental moves, d3 Bd2. It is a slow game, but eventually something has to give.
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #13 - 01/26/15 at 00:47:47
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RdC wrote on 01/24/15 at 23:51:02:
You meet d5 with exd5 exd5 and then play d4. You eventually take on c5, or persuade Black to take on d4. Either way Black gets an isolated d pawn.

That's correct, but it doesn't really work for White:
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6
a) 3.g3 d5 4.exd5 exd5 5.d4 (or Black plays ...d4) cxd4 6.Qxd4 is the reversed Göring Gambit line Kylemeister already mentioned;
b) 3.Nge2 Nc6 4.g3 (4.d4 is the transposition to the Taimanov/Scheveningen Yolo asked for) d5 5.exd5 exd5 6.d4 Bg4!

Carlsen didn't really play a Closed Sicilian.
  

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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #12 - 01/24/15 at 23:51:02
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kylemeister wrote on 01/23/15 at 20:43:59:
I'm not aware that the d5-pawn generally becomes isolated



Think game 4 of the Carlsen-Anand 2014 Wch.

You meet d5 with exd5 exd5 and then play d4. You eventually take on c5, or persuade Black to take on d4. Either way Black gets an isolated d pawn.

There are some similarities to the line in the French Tarrasch that starts 1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Nf3 Nc6 5. exd5 exd5

The Wch game indicated that commentators and computer engines were divided as to whether the isolated queen pawn was a disadvantage or whether "activity" was sufficient or more compensation.

It's an idea used a number of times by Michael Adams. Given the disclosure that he was a second to Carlsen, that may have influenced Carlsen's adoption of the idea. It's an attempt to improve on the old Fischer line of 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d3
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #11 - 01/23/15 at 20:43:59
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I'm not aware that the d5-pawn generally becomes isolated; I mean, there's the Göring Gambit-like endgamish line, but otherwise you tend to have stuff with ...d4, such as in the oldies Spassky-Korchnoi and Spassky-Kasparov.
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #10 - 01/23/15 at 18:52:57
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As a player of 2...e6 Sicilians, I thought I would dredge this up rather than starting a new topic.  Sorry for the thread necromancy, but since my questions are related I thought it would be convenient to have some (slightly dated) context.

After 1 e4 c5 2 Nc3 e6 3 g3 d5 I believe the verdict of theory is "equal" but Black certainly seems to have the more difficult task.  White has the potential for fairly strong pressure on the pawn d5, which will generally become isolated.  This is, nonetheless, my choice to date.

I know that these positions are more attractive for Black if White commits to f4, but unfortunately, White has a lot of convenient ways to delay this move: Nge2, 0-0, d3, etc.

So I would appreciate any thoughts on how to meet this variation with the basic goal of preserving Taimanov/Scheveningen transpositions should White play d2-d4 before d7-d5.
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #9 - 02/04/07 at 13:49:34
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Thanks, Easy, that is actually one of the illuminating explanations of how White can handle this that I've read.

Also, one analyst wrote recently in a regional magazine that it is simply easier to play the Black position with ...e6 (or ...e5) and ...Nge7,  noting that after ...Nf6 this N often has to redeploy ...Ne8-c7 in the face of f4 and g4-g5.
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #8 - 02/03/07 at 19:52:14
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Indeed some black players do not fianchetto in the closed sicilian, which i also found very annoying. What seems to work is switching plans (so no Be3 Qe2 etc.) but launch those kingside pawns to the fourth rank (f4 and g4), get your knights over to the kingside and advance further to break blacks kingside up. This attack comes faster then usual because when they don't fianchetto they always put the knight on f6 also with fianchetto black can defend (much) better against this pawn storm then without it.
  
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Re: Closed - Black Doesn't Fianchetto
Reply #7 - 11/04/06 at 16:07:23
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dsanchez wrote on 11/04/06 at 14:51:49:
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 Nf6 4.Bg2 e6 5.d3 d6 6.f4 Be7 7.Nf3 0-0 8.0-0 Rb8 9.h3 d5 10.g4

In this line, which is Wells - Gormally (or close to it, anyway), why is 10...d4 not worth a mention?  Seems like an obvious enough move to a patzer, and in fact Fritz seems to prefer it, at least on a quick analysis.  However, neither Palliser nor Lane consider this move.

Wells - Gormally, Gershon - Shabalov, and Spraggett - Leseige all continued 10...dxe4 in similar positions.

My guess is that by closing the position with 10...d4, Black relenquishes all possibility of central counterplay.  The game is thus reduced to a race on each wing, where White has a leg up on his side of the board.  Moreover, White is directly attacking Black's king, whereas the best Black can hope for immediately is to "generate some play" on the queenside.  Definite advantage to White?

But that's just a guess.


I think 10...d4 certainly looks wrong, and I think you've captured the essence of the reason in your comments.  Then again, Black's play (...e6, ...d6, ...Rb8, ...d5) looks like a bit of a mishmash to me.
  
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