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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Solid Defense against English?!?! (Read 20659 times)
Dinomike100
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #49 - 08/27/06 at 03:25:34
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Smyslov_Fan:

Do you know if there are any ways for white to play the Slav (and/or Semi-Slav) without having to go through a ton of theory?  Are there any anti- systems that white can go into after the first few moves in a mainline slav which are less theoretical, other than the exchange Slav?

I am under the impression that the exchange Slav is extremely drawish, at least from the statistics it has in several databases.  I think it was usually about 20% white 20% black and 60% draw.

I am under the impression, however, that the exchange variation 1. c4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. cxd5 is still pretty good for white.  However, this is just from looking at the statistics, again, so I'm not sure if this is accurate.

____

EDIT:

Also, I the main problem I see with going into a Reti right now is that black can try to grab white's c pawn (as in the Reti Pawngrab post, or similar variations).

In any case, what do you guys think of lines like this:

1. c4 e6  2. Nf3 d5  3. b3 --> and possibly following up with a double fianchetto.

or

1. c4 c6  2. Nf3 d5  3. b3

Do lines like this still preserve the first-move advantage for white?



  
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bob000
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #48 - 08/27/06 at 03:01:38
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Smyslov_Fan, you misread my post. That was a line I recommended for WHITE. As black I prefer the 1..b6 2...Bb7 move order precisely because it avoids Bd3, which is so strong for white.

By Indians I meant the Nimzo and Queen's Indian. You can't really avoid the King's/Old Indian but such is the reputation of the Nimzo/Queen's that many are happy to play c4 just to avoid it.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #47 - 08/26/06 at 23:29:44
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While I agree that from the White perspective, playing 2.d4 against 1...e6 or c6 is probably best, from the Black perspective I see it as a small victory.  When I see 1.c4 I wonder if the opponent has an original or obscure idea that he wants to try out.  If I play 1...c6 or 1...e6, I am almost hoping for White to play into the QGD/Slav lines and usually that person is not as comfortable in some of the lines I've prepared.

For instance, as Black after 1.c4 c6 2.d4 d5 the most common move that I face is the Exchange, usually because White doesn't want to go down the long theoretical and messy lines of the Slav or Semi-Slav.  If the player had started with 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6, even though we reach the same position, White seems more willing to test critical lines.

All this isn't as true at the very highest levels, but move order is so important from a psychological perspective that players should carefully consider how they want to play against the Slav as White before they play 1.c4.  They may be pleasantly surprised if they avoid the Exchange Variation!
  
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Scholar
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #46 - 08/26/06 at 17:43:48
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Good point.  I guess there are also various hybrid systems with c6/d5/kingside fianchetto.  White can probably hold off d4 until Black plays d5 (and play something more 'English' otherwise), but this is an idea for discussion elsewhere.

Suffice to say, 1...c6 and 1...e6 are both very solid and I find that White's best chances are with d4 and standard stuff.
  
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #45 - 08/26/06 at 15:13:01
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Scholar wrote on 08/26/06 at 04:24:30:
As bob000 points out, against 1...c6 Black has already restricted his options, but 1...e6 keeps open the plan of playing an indian.


1...c6 doesnt necessary rule out the indian systems.... c6 fits well with especially the Old Indian but also the Kings Indian defence.

This move order might trick white out of his normal repertouar
  
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #44 - 08/26/06 at 04:24:30
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Well, there doesn't appear to be much discussion the e4/c4 system in the French section either; all I found was some brief comments (of mine) mentioning Miezis.  Still, I recall that his games were instrucive.

Kosten's suggestion is 1.c4 c6 2.g3 d5 3.Bg2 and now after dxc4 amongst other moves, I have no great fondness for White's positon, though I have not looked at it in some time.  Perhaps one could learn the Catalan in addition to the English; these complement each other nicely and would give another  way to meet both 1...e6 and 1...c6.  As bob000 points out, against 1...c6 Black has already restricted his options, but 1...e6 keeps open the plan of playing an indian.
  
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #43 - 08/26/06 at 02:47:12
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bob000,

I've played the line you mention (Bd3 f5, exf5 Bxg2) by accident and on purpose in blitz games.  White's attack is amazingly strong in blitz, and I've never really studied it.  My experience (again, against relatively low rated players online) is that since it wins with fairly simple intuitive moves by White maybe Black is the one that has to be precise not to lose quickly.

Scholar,

Thanks for the reference to the French thread.  Since I'm there most of the time now for some reason, I should have looked at that for any reference to his games!


(I still haven't installed any chess-related programs on my computer other than Blitzin.   I know that as soon as I do, I'll spend hours playing and analysing various positions.)
  
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bob000
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #42 - 08/26/06 at 00:02:39
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I'm afraid after 1..e6 2.Nc3 d5 and 1...c6 white's best chances lie in transposing to a d pawn opening. On the bright side you've avoided the Nimzo Indian, one of the most respectable defenses to d4.
Against the English defense 1.c4 b6 2.d4 e6 3.e4 Bb7 4.Bd3 f5 you're best bet is xf5. You sacrifice the rook but white's attack is considered winning. Of course it's requires rather accurate play.
Against 1.c4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nc3 e6 4.e4 Bb4 5.f3 is a fine line.
Another possibility is 1.c4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Nf3 e6 4.g3 daring black to make the positional mistake of Bxf3 and playing against a QID otherwise.
  
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #41 - 08/25/06 at 17:14:31
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Dinomike100 wrote on 08/25/06 at 04:26:30:
Since asking the question, I have actually started using the English opening as white.  So this is sort of off topic, I guess, but what would you guys say is white's best try against the English defense ( 1. c4 b6).  Is it 2. d4 or are there other decent options? 

Also: does white have any decent setups against 1. ...c6 or 1. ...e6 that don't involve transposing to some sort of queen's gambit declined?


I think that White's best is to transpose to a queen's gambit -- actually, after I came to this belief I switched from the English to 1.d4, so you're probably better off asking someone else.  My recollection is that some of White's most aggressive options in the Reti seemed to lead nowhere, and Kosten's otherwise excellent book didn't convince me either.

Quote:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/25/06 at 04:45:59:
.... but you will find very, very few games in which strong players (2350+) play 1.c4 e6 2.e4 or 1.e4 e6 2.c4.


GM Miezis plays this regularly form the white side.
Although I think it is fair to say that some of his opening choices are more based on understanding (and experience with) the position, than a belief of an opening advantage


Yes -- I think that there might be some discussion of this in one of the French threads, as I came across his games while looking into this anti-French.  It appears that some of his opponents began to prepare for him, since he plays this way at every opportunity, and often they would get the upper hand out of the opening.
  
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #40 - 08/25/06 at 14:45:12
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Iirc, for some reason I am unable to fathom, he also plays the budapest on occasion
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #39 - 08/25/06 at 14:25:22
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Viking,


I'm not familiar with GM Miezis.  I'll have to go through chessbase and find out more about him.  Thanks for the added information.  Still, one GM out of a thousand still constitiutes "very, very few" in my book.
  
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #38 - 08/25/06 at 06:44:58
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/25/06 at 04:45:59:
.... but you will find very, very few games in which strong players (2350+) play 1.c4 e6 2.e4 or 1.e4 e6 2.c4.


GM Miezis plays this regularly form the white side.
Although I think it is fair to say that some of his opening choices are more based on understanding (and experience with) the position, than a belief of an opening advantage
  
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #37 - 08/25/06 at 04:52:08
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After 1.c4 c6 White can strive for a Réti with 2.Nf3 d5 3.b3 Nf6 4.g3.
So he can after 1.c4 e6 2.Nf3 d5 3.g3.
After 1.c4 a setup with d3 and e4 has been played, eg Hansen-Ehlvest, Biel 1993.
No, S_F, I don't feel like giving further lines either.
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #36 - 08/25/06 at 04:45:59
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1.c4 c6 can be answered by 2.e4 and you will probably play the Caro-Kann Panov-Btovinnik System.

However, 1.c4 e6 2.e4 d5 is a variation of the French Exchange that may give Black equality.  I've always recommended against 2.e4 to my students, but some just love the White side of the French Exchange. 

If you think Black isn't ready for either of those 1.e4 lines, they can be quite successful against amateurs.  Professional chess players are versatile enough to know how to play those types of positions as Black.  The Caro-Kann Panov still has an excellent reputation, but you will find very, very few games in which strong players (2350+) play 1.c4 e6 2.e4 or 1.e4 e6 2.c4.
  
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Dinomike100
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Re: Solid Defense against English?!?!
Reply #35 - 08/25/06 at 04:26:30
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Since asking the question, I have actually started using the English opening as white.  So this is sort of off topic, I guess, but what would you guys say is white's best try against the English defense ( 1. c4 b6).  Is it 2. d4 or are there other decent options? 

Also: does white have any decent setups against 1. ...c6 or 1. ...e6 that don't involve transposing to some sort of queen's gambit declined?
  
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