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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 (Read 25597 times)
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #41 - 02/11/08 at 17:10:04
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Anyone intrested in this variation should look at "The sharpest Sicilian" where Kiri Georgiv convincely shows that his line is harmless.
He writes something like that white can not even get a english attack after e5 since black can play a5 instaed of a6. (5 _ e5 6 Nb3 Be6 7 c4 a5) Being a Dragon player I actually bought this book to see what he plays agianst none mainlines.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #40 - 02/01/08 at 22:34:54
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John Hall wrote on 02/01/08 at 16:20:53:
Still- the Prins I think is somewhat promising if you like positions with extra space (binds and hedgehogs) as a surprise weapon.


Sssst, or Donner's ghost will disturb your night's rest. You should know that according to Donner Prins did not know the difference between a knight and a bishop.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #39 - 02/01/08 at 16:20:53
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TopNotch wrote on 01/31/08 at 23:48:15:
John Hall wrote on 01/31/08 at 14:27:00:
HgMan wrote on 01/31/08 at 01:25:01:
I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?


The coverage in the book is quite good- it covers all the theoretically important tries.

The bad news about this line is that black has a very clean way to equalize- which is well covered in the book.  It is 100% quality IMO.

The good news is, after looking through all the database games played the last couple years, either nobody knows- or nobody plays te equalizing line (even up to GM level).In corr.- that could be a different story though...

In pratice it looks like you will get mostly Hedgehog type positions (you playing the side with the space) and a few extra accel dragons (which you cant really avoid). If you like the M. Bind, it's a good choice IMO for a surpirse weapon...


Very intriguing, but I hope you are not referring to the well known supposed theoretical equaliser 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5, which Nigel Short himself has analysed and concluded that there is no easy equality here for Black.

Should the line above be the one you are referring to, then maybe there is a good reason why strong players are avoiding it in praxis and I seriously doubt that the reason is a lack of awareness.

Tops Smiley



No. That is not the line I was referring to. Palliser (who writes the chapter in Dangerous Weapons...) agrees with Short that in the 5 ...e5 6. Nb3 line, white has good chances for an advantage- particularly after 6 ...d5.

The equalizer is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e6 6. c4 Nc6 7. Nc3 Be7 8. Be3 0-0 9. Be2 d5 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. 0-0

which Palliser says is equal and its very hard to argue with that. McShane - Grischuk (2003) lasted ended shortly in a draw after 14 ...Bf6 15. Bd4 Rb8 (1/2 - 1/2)

There doesn't seem to be a promising way to avoid this ...d5 idea which seems to equalize.

Still- the Prins I think is somewhat promising if you like positions with extra space (binds and hedgehogs) as a surprise weapon.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #38 - 02/01/08 at 13:22:49
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after 5...e5 6.Nb3 Be7 7.c4 0-0 followed by ...Be6, ...Nbd7 and stuff, developing Najdorf style, looks good for Black to me. I don't think White has an advantage, and it is quite easy for Black to play in my opinion.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #37 - 01/31/08 at 23:48:15
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John Hall wrote on 01/31/08 at 14:27:00:
HgMan wrote on 01/31/08 at 01:25:01:
I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?


The coverage in the book is quite good- it covers all the theoretically important tries.

The bad news about this line is that black has a very clean way to equalize- which is well covered in the book.  It is 100% quality IMO.

The good news is, after looking through all the database games played the last couple years, either nobody knows- or nobody plays te equalizing line (even up to GM level).In corr.- that could be a different story though...

In pratice it looks like you will get mostly Hedgehog type positions (you playing the side with the space) and a few extra accel dragons (which you cant really avoid). If you like the M. Bind, it's a good choice IMO for a surpirse weapon...


Very intriguing, but I hope you are not referring to the well known supposed theoretical equaliser 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5, which Nigel Short himself has analysed and concluded that there is no easy equality here for Black.

Should the line above be the one you are referring to, then maybe there is a good reason why strong players are avoiding it in praxis and I seriously doubt that the reason is a lack of awareness.

Tops Smiley
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #36 - 01/31/08 at 14:27:00
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HgMan wrote on 01/31/08 at 01:25:01:
I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?


The coverage in the book is quite good- it covers all the theoretically important tries.

The bad news about this line is that black has a very clean way to equalize- which is well covered in the book.  It is 100% quality IMO.

The good news is, after looing through all the database games played the last couple years, either nobody knows- or nobody plays te equalizing line (even up to GM level). In corr.- that could be a different sotry though...

In pratice it looks like you will get mostly Hedgehog type positions (you playing the side with the space) and a few extra accel dragons (which you cant really avoid). If you like the M. Bind, it's a good choice IMO for a surpirse weapon...
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #35 - 01/31/08 at 01:25:01
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I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?
  
"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #34 - 07/11/06 at 09:17:17
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KB907 wrote on 07/07/06 at 16:07:15:
P.S. Can someone tell me how to make diagrams because I would like to add some but I am not sure how.

woofwoof gives a good, clear description of how to make diagrams in the following post:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151070318/45#47

I've followed these straightforward instructions and they work perfectly.

Another forum link is:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1052948174

This is a thread on creating diagrams (apparently there are various options), which I haven't look through yet - since I already have a way which works.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #33 - 07/11/06 at 06:55:11
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. f4 exf4 9. Bb5+  9. Nc3 Be7 10. Bb5+ Nc6 11. Nd4 Bd7 12. Bxc6 bxc6
13. e5 Ne4 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Bxf4 O-O 

White is too weak on the dark squares and Blck has excellent lines for his pieces and already holds a small initiative.  Black's weak e4 pawn is not even a worry since White has real issues of his own.)
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #32 - 07/11/06 at 02:03:16
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Against 11. ... Bd7 I have 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13. e5 Ne4 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15.Bxf4 Qb6 (c5 looks playable) 16.e6 fxe6 (Bxe6 leads to the same idea except black no longer has two bishops advantage) 17.Qh5 g6 18.Qe5 Rf8 19.0-0-0
Here I prefer whites pawn structure and king safety and whites control of the center. Blacks e pawns are easily attacked so his only advantages are his two bishops and his light squared bishop has limited mobility.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #31 - 07/08/06 at 16:10:00
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. f4 exf4  9. Nc3 Be7 10. Bb5+ Nc6 11. Nd4 Bd7


Black poses some very tough questions to white.  One of them -- where is the
compensation? And  Why does Black control more or equal amount of center?  Who's
structure is better?
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #30 - 07/07/06 at 16:07:15
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Sorry it has taken me awhile... I think that 9.Bb5 is premature because fritz thinks so. Cry

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 e5 6.Nb3 d5 7.Bg5 Be6 8.f4 exf4 and instead of the previous Bb5 fritz suggests
9.Nc3 Be7 (9...Bb4 is worse because of 10.Qd4 Nc6 (10...Bxc3+ 11.Qxc3 dxe4 12.Bb5+ Nbd7 13.0-0-0 Qb6 14.Bxd7+² [.31]) 11.Bb5 Bxc3+ 12.Qxc3 Qb6 13.Bxc6+ Qxc6 14.Bxf6= [.03]) 10.Bb5+ Nc6 11.Nd4 Rc8 12.Bxf4 dxe4 13.Nxe6 fxe6 14.Be3
Here I think white has excellent compensation for the pawn because of the two bishops advantage and his pawn structure [-.56]

Nc3 is the line that I like the most but fritz says better is 9.exd5 Qxd5 10.Bxf6 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 gxf6 =+[-.50] This is pretty unclear because black has tripled(!) f pawns but 2 bishops and an extra pawn.

Feel free to rip my analysis to pieces because I want to get a final word on this line...
-KB

P.S. Can someone tell me how to make diagrams because I would like to add some but I am not sure how.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #29 - 07/01/06 at 19:39:07
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1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6

8. f4 exf4 9. Bb5+  Nc6 10. e5 Qc7

11. Bxf4

(11.exf6 Qe5+ 12. Qe2 Qxg5 13. Nc3 (13. fxg7 Bxg7) 13... a6 14. Bxc6+ bxc6 15. fxg7
Bxg7

White's compensation (being a pawn down) of Black having double f-pawns
and four pawn islands is not sufficient to me since Black has better control
of the center, controls more space, the two bishops on an open board, and
active possibilities on both wings.})

11...   Ne4
12. N1d2 Be7 13. Nxe4 dxe4 14.Qe2 O-O-O
15. Qxe4 Bd5 16. Qf5+ Kb8  17.0-0-0  g6  18.Qg4 g5 Black will capture on e5 with a good position.
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #28 - 06/30/06 at 15:09:58
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I know the game is old but how do u feel about

[Event "Munich ol (Men) fin-B"]
[Site "Munich"]
[Date "1958.09.30"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Prins,Lodewijk"]
[Black "Sterner,Olof"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B55"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 e5 6.Nb3 d5 7.Bg5 Be6 8.f4 exf4
9.Bb5+ Nc6 10.e5 h6 11.Bh4 g5 12.exf6 gxh4 13.Nd4 Qb6 14.Nc3 0-0-0 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.Qd3 Bg4
17.0-0 c5 18.Na4 Qa5 19.Nc6 Qxa4 20.Nxd8 Qd7 21.Rxf4 Kxd8 22.Rxg4 Qxg4 23.Qxd5+ Qd7 24.Qa8+ Kc7 25.Qxa7+ Kc6 26.Qa8+ Qb7 27.Qe8+ Kb6 28.a4 Rg8 29.Qd8+ Ka6 30.Qd3+ Ka7 31.Qh3 c4 32.Rd1 Bc5+ 33.Kf1 Ka6 34.Rd2 Qxb2 35.Qf3 Qa1+ 36.Rd1 Qxa4 37.Qc3 Qb4 38.Qf3 Rc8 39.Qd5 Rc7 40.Ra1+ Kb6 41.Qa8 Qb5 42.Qb8+ Rb7 43.Qd8+ Kc6 44.Qc8+ Kd6 45.Qd8+ Ke5 46.Re1+ Kf5 47.Qd5+ Kxf6 48.Qf3+ Kg7 49.Qg4+  1/2

8.f4 has only been played once in all of the databases I have checked. Instead of 14. Nc3 how about 14.Nxe6 fxe6 15.Qh5 Kd8 16. Bxc6 I think it is pretty unclear but white might have the advantage if he knows the position better. It also looks kind of forcing at times... Any thoughts?
  
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Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #27 - 06/30/06 at 01:15:16
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Scholar wrote on 06/30/06 at 00:22:22:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6 8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O  Nc6 13. Ne4 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Ke7

Here I had looked at 15.Bb5 with the idea that after Rhg8 16.g4 Black's work is not done.  Looking at BladezII's main line for inspiration, 15...Rac8 is another try.  I'm sure that Black can draw the position, but on the whole I agree with Palliser's remarks -- and I am certainly one of those Black players who prefers to have a sound structure.



1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. Bxf6  gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O  Nc6  13. Ne4 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Ke7 15. Bb5

15...  Rac8

Black is fine, well developed and his pieces are well placed.  Am I the only one seeing that Black is better positioned than White for this endgame?  Even Black's King is better placed than White's.  Who else sees that Black's center pawns are doubled but mobile and they are a force, an offensive force that Black can and will use to press on.  What does white have for him?

For example

16. Nec5   Rc7
17. Nxe6 fxe6 18. c3 a6 19. Bc4 Rg8 20. g3

(20. g4 e4! 21. Nd4 Nxd4 22. Rxd4 e3 23.Re4 Rc6 24. Bb3 Rg7 and then ...e5  Black is using those pawns like I said.)

20...  f5

Black is pressing to use his trumps.  Frankly, Black can ask if he can win this as much as white can ask this same question.
  
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