Latest Updates:
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 (Read 21261 times)
bragesjo
God Member
*****
Offline


CCE at ICCF 2021

Posts: 1693
Location: Eskilstuna
Joined: 06/30/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #41 - 02/11/08 at 17:10:04
Post Tools
Anyone intrested in this variation should look at "The sharpest Sicilian" where Kiri Georgiv convincely shows that his line is harmless.
He writes something like that white can not even get a english attack after e5 since black can play a5 instaed of a6. (5 _ e5 6 Nb3 Be6 7 c4 a5) Being a Dragon player I actually bought this book to see what he plays agianst none mainlines.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
MNb
God Member
*****
Offline


Rudolf Spielmann forever

Posts: 10607
Location: Moengo
Joined: 01/05/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #40 - 02/01/08 at 22:34:54
Post Tools
John Hall wrote on 02/01/08 at 16:20:53:
Still- the Prins I think is somewhat promising if you like positions with extra space (binds and hedgehogs) as a surprise weapon.


Sssst, or Donner's ghost will disturb your night's rest. You should know that according to Donner Prins did not know the difference between a knight and a bishop.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Hall
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 44
Joined: 01/23/08
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #39 - 02/01/08 at 16:20:53
Post Tools
TopNotch wrote on 01/31/08 at 23:48:15:
John Hall wrote on 01/31/08 at 14:27:00:
HgMan wrote on 01/31/08 at 01:25:01:
I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?


The coverage in the book is quite good- it covers all the theoretically important tries.

The bad news about this line is that black has a very clean way to equalize- which is well covered in the book.  It is 100% quality IMO.

The good news is, after looking through all the database games played the last couple years, either nobody knows- or nobody plays te equalizing line (even up to GM level).In corr.- that could be a different story though...

In pratice it looks like you will get mostly Hedgehog type positions (you playing the side with the space) and a few extra accel dragons (which you cant really avoid). If you like the M. Bind, it's a good choice IMO for a surpirse weapon...


Very intriguing, but I hope you are not referring to the well known supposed theoretical equaliser 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5, which Nigel Short himself has analysed and concluded that there is no easy equality here for Black.

Should the line above be the one you are referring to, then maybe there is a good reason why strong players are avoiding it in praxis and I seriously doubt that the reason is a lack of awareness.

Tops Smiley



No. That is not the line I was referring to. Palliser (who writes the chapter in Dangerous Weapons...) agrees with Short that in the 5 ...e5 6. Nb3 line, white has good chances for an advantage- particularly after 6 ...d5.

The equalizer is 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e6 6. c4 Nc6 7. Nc3 Be7 8. Be3 0-0 9. Be2 d5 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. 0-0

which Palliser says is equal and its very hard to argue with that. McShane - Grischuk (2003) lasted ended shortly in a draw after 14 ...Bf6 15. Bd4 Rb8 (1/2 - 1/2)

There doesn't seem to be a promising way to avoid this ...d5 idea which seems to equalize.

Still- the Prins I think is somewhat promising if you like positions with extra space (binds and hedgehogs) as a surprise weapon.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
sssthepro
Senior Member
****
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 439
Joined: 12/16/06
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #38 - 02/01/08 at 13:22:49
Post Tools
after 5...e5 6.Nb3 Be7 7.c4 0-0 followed by ...Be6, ...Nbd7 and stuff, developing Najdorf style, looks good for Black to me. I don't think White has an advantage, and it is quite easy for Black to play in my opinion.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
TopNotch
God Member
*****
Offline


I only look 1 move ahead,
but its always the best

Posts: 2130
Joined: 01/04/03
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #37 - 01/31/08 at 23:48:15
Post Tools
John Hall wrote on 01/31/08 at 14:27:00:
HgMan wrote on 01/31/08 at 01:25:01:
I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?


The coverage in the book is quite good- it covers all the theoretically important tries.

The bad news about this line is that black has a very clean way to equalize- which is well covered in the book.  It is 100% quality IMO.

The good news is, after looking through all the database games played the last couple years, either nobody knows- or nobody plays te equalizing line (even up to GM level).In corr.- that could be a different story though...

In pratice it looks like you will get mostly Hedgehog type positions (you playing the side with the space) and a few extra accel dragons (which you cant really avoid). If you like the M. Bind, it's a good choice IMO for a surpirse weapon...


Very intriguing, but I hope you are not referring to the well known supposed theoretical equaliser 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5, which Nigel Short himself has analysed and concluded that there is no easy equality here for Black.

Should the line above be the one you are referring to, then maybe there is a good reason why strong players are avoiding it in praxis and I seriously doubt that the reason is a lack of awareness.

Tops Smiley
  

The man who tries to do something and fails is infinitely better than he who tries to do nothing and succeeds - Lloyd Jones Smiley
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Hall
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 44
Joined: 01/23/08
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #36 - 01/31/08 at 14:27:00
Post Tools
HgMan wrote on 01/31/08 at 01:25:01:
I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?


The coverage in the book is quite good- it covers all the theoretically important tries.

The bad news about this line is that black has a very clean way to equalize- which is well covered in the book.  It is 100% quality IMO.

The good news is, after looing through all the database games played the last couple years, either nobody knows- or nobody plays te equalizing line (even up to GM level). In corr.- that could be a different sotry though...

In pratice it looks like you will get mostly Hedgehog type positions (you playing the side with the space) and a few extra accel dragons (which you cant really avoid). If you like the M. Bind, it's a good choice IMO for a surpirse weapon...

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
HgMan
God Member
*****
Offline


Demand me nothing: What
you know, you know

Posts: 2327
Location: Up on Cripple Creek
Joined: 11/09/04
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #35 - 01/31/08 at 01:25:01
Post Tools
I was leafing through Dangerous Weapons not so long ago, and rather intrigued by the idea of popping out this line to surprise opponents.  How is the coverage in the book (which I will buy next time I see it)?  Does this line have merit for White beyond surprise value?
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #34 - 07/11/06 at 09:17:17
Post Tools
KB907 wrote on 07/07/06 at 16:07:15:
P.S. Can someone tell me how to make diagrams because I would like to add some but I am not sure how.

woofwoof gives a good, clear description of how to make diagrams in the following post:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151070318/45#47

I've followed these straightforward instructions and they work perfectly.

Another forum link is:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1052948174

This is a thread on creating diagrams (apparently there are various options), which I haven't look through yet - since I already have a way which works.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #33 - 07/11/06 at 06:55:11
Post Tools


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. f4 exf4 9. Bb5+  9. Nc3 Be7 10. Bb5+ Nc6 11. Nd4 Bd7 12. Bxc6 bxc6
13. e5 Ne4 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Bxf4 O-O 

White is too weak on the dark squares and Blck has excellent lines for his pieces and already holds a small initiative.  Black's weak e4 pawn is not even a worry since White has real issues of his own.)
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KB907
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 3
Joined: 06/30/06
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #32 - 07/11/06 at 02:03:16
Post Tools
Against 11. ... Bd7 I have 12.Bxc6 bxc6 13. e5 Ne4 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15.Bxf4 Qb6 (c5 looks playable) 16.e6 fxe6 (Bxe6 leads to the same idea except black no longer has two bishops advantage) 17.Qh5 g6 18.Qe5 Rf8 19.0-0-0
Here I prefer whites pawn structure and king safety and whites control of the center. Blacks e pawns are easily attacked so his only advantages are his two bishops and his light squared bishop has limited mobility.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #31 - 07/08/06 at 16:10:00
Post Tools


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. f4 exf4  9. Nc3 Be7 10. Bb5+ Nc6 11. Nd4 Bd7


Black poses some very tough questions to white.  One of them -- where is the
compensation? And  Why does Black control more or equal amount of center?  Who's
structure is better?
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KB907
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 3
Joined: 06/30/06
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #30 - 07/07/06 at 16:07:15
Post Tools
Sorry it has taken me awhile... I think that 9.Bb5 is premature because fritz thinks so. Cry

1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 e5 6.Nb3 d5 7.Bg5 Be6 8.f4 exf4 and instead of the previous Bb5 fritz suggests
9.Nc3 Be7 (9...Bb4 is worse because of 10.Qd4 Nc6 (10...Bxc3+ 11.Qxc3 dxe4 12.Bb5+ Nbd7 13.0-0-0 Qb6 14.Bxd7+² [.31]) 11.Bb5 Bxc3+ 12.Qxc3 Qb6 13.Bxc6+ Qxc6 14.Bxf6= [.03]) 10.Bb5+ Nc6 11.Nd4 Rc8 12.Bxf4 dxe4 13.Nxe6 fxe6 14.Be3
Here I think white has excellent compensation for the pawn because of the two bishops advantage and his pawn structure [-.56]

Nc3 is the line that I like the most but fritz says better is 9.exd5 Qxd5 10.Bxf6 Qxd1+ 11.Kxd1 gxf6 =+[-.50] This is pretty unclear because black has tripled(!) f pawns but 2 bishops and an extra pawn.

Feel free to rip my analysis to pieces because I want to get a final word on this line...
-KB

P.S. Can someone tell me how to make diagrams because I would like to add some but I am not sure how.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #29 - 07/01/06 at 19:39:07
Post Tools


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6

8. f4 exf4 9. Bb5+  Nc6 10. e5 Qc7

11. Bxf4

(11.exf6 Qe5+ 12. Qe2 Qxg5 13. Nc3 (13. fxg7 Bxg7) 13... a6 14. Bxc6+ bxc6 15. fxg7
Bxg7

White's compensation (being a pawn down) of Black having double f-pawns
and four pawn islands is not sufficient to me since Black has better control
of the center, controls more space, the two bishops on an open board, and
active possibilities on both wings.})

11...   Ne4
12. N1d2 Be7 13. Nxe4 dxe4 14.Qe2 O-O-O
15. Qxe4 Bd5 16. Qf5+ Kb8  17.0-0-0  g6  18.Qg4 g5 Black will capture on e5 with a good position.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
KB907
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 3
Joined: 06/30/06
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #28 - 06/30/06 at 15:09:58
Post Tools
I know the game is old but how do u feel about

[Event "Munich ol (Men) fin-B"]
[Site "Munich"]
[Date "1958.09.30"]
[Round "6"]
[White "Prins,Lodewijk"]
[Black "Sterner,Olof"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B55"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 e5 6.Nb3 d5 7.Bg5 Be6 8.f4 exf4
9.Bb5+ Nc6 10.e5 h6 11.Bh4 g5 12.exf6 gxh4 13.Nd4 Qb6 14.Nc3 0-0-0 15.Bxc6 bxc6 16.Qd3 Bg4
17.0-0 c5 18.Na4 Qa5 19.Nc6 Qxa4 20.Nxd8 Qd7 21.Rxf4 Kxd8 22.Rxg4 Qxg4 23.Qxd5+ Qd7 24.Qa8+ Kc7 25.Qxa7+ Kc6 26.Qa8+ Qb7 27.Qe8+ Kb6 28.a4 Rg8 29.Qd8+ Ka6 30.Qd3+ Ka7 31.Qh3 c4 32.Rd1 Bc5+ 33.Kf1 Ka6 34.Rd2 Qxb2 35.Qf3 Qa1+ 36.Rd1 Qxa4 37.Qc3 Qb4 38.Qf3 Rc8 39.Qd5 Rc7 40.Ra1+ Kb6 41.Qa8 Qb5 42.Qb8+ Rb7 43.Qd8+ Kc6 44.Qc8+ Kd6 45.Qd8+ Ke5 46.Re1+ Kf5 47.Qd5+ Kxf6 48.Qf3+ Kg7 49.Qg4+  1/2

8.f4 has only been played once in all of the databases I have checked. Instead of 14. Nc3 how about 14.Nxe6 fxe6 15.Qh5 Kd8 16. Bxc6 I think it is pretty unclear but white might have the advantage if he knows the position better. It also looks kind of forcing at times... Any thoughts?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #27 - 06/30/06 at 01:15:16
Post Tools
Scholar wrote on 06/30/06 at 00:22:22:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6 8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O  Nc6 13. Ne4 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Ke7

Here I had looked at 15.Bb5 with the idea that after Rhg8 16.g4 Black's work is not done.  Looking at BladezII's main line for inspiration, 15...Rac8 is another try.  I'm sure that Black can draw the position, but on the whole I agree with Palliser's remarks -- and I am certainly one of those Black players who prefers to have a sound structure.



1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. Bxf6  gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O  Nc6  13. Ne4 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Ke7 15. Bb5

15...  Rac8

Black is fine, well developed and his pieces are well placed.  Am I the only one seeing that Black is better positioned than White for this endgame?  Even Black's King is better placed than White's.  Who else sees that Black's center pawns are doubled but mobile and they are a force, an offensive force that Black can and will use to press on.  What does white have for him?

For example

16. Nec5   Rc7
17. Nxe6 fxe6 18. c3 a6 19. Bc4 Rg8 20. g3

(20. g4 e4! 21. Nd4 Nxd4 22. Rxd4 e3 23.Re4 Rc6 24. Bb3 Rg7 and then ...e5  Black is using those pawns like I said.)

20...  f5

Black is pressing to use his trumps.  Frankly, Black can ask if he can win this as much as white can ask this same question.
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #26 - 06/30/06 at 00:24:38
Post Tools
On (5...e5 6.Nb3) 6...a5 I must confess that I don't see the point.  Given the chance, Black will play a4/Qa5, it would seem, and so what?  White still seems fine.  Moreover, White has 7.a5 as another possibility.

So instead I've been looking at two ideas.  One of them, to transpose to a favorable version of the acc. dragon, seems not to work so nicely since Knaak's idea of postponing castling in an effort to stave off Black's b5, as in (by transposition):

Knaak,R (2515) - Kindermann,S (2515) [B38]
Hamburg SKA Hamburg, 1991

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.f3 0-0 6.Be3 c5 7.Nge2 Nc6 8.Qd2 cxd4 9.Nxd4 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Be2 Qa5 12.b3 Rfc8 13.Rb1 Nd7 14.Bxg7 Kxg7 15.0-0 Nf6 16.Kh1 a6 17.a4 Qb4 18.Qb2 Kg8 19.Na2 Qc5 20.Qd2 a5 21.Nc3 Bd7 22.f4 Bc6 23.Bf3 e5 24.Rbd1 exf4 25.Qxf4 Qe5 26.Qd2 Rd8 27.Rde1 Nd7 28.Nd5 Nc5 29.Bd1 Kg7 30.Bc2 Ne6 31.Nf6 Nc5 32.Ng4 Qh5 33.Qd4+ Kf8 34.Qh8+ Ke7 35.Qf6+ Kd7 36.Qxf7+ Kc8 37.Bd1 Qg5 38.Nf6 Kb8 39.Qe7 Ka7 40.Bg4 h5 41.Bh3 Nxb3 42.Qg7 Nd2 43.Rg1 Nxc4 44.Nd5 Ne5 45.Qc7 Bxd5 46.exd5 Nd3 47.Re2 Qxd5 48.Rb1 Rf8 49.Qb6+ Kb8 50.Be6 Ra6 51.Qxa6 1-0

The cavalier 13.0-0 allows b5!.  I don't really see any improvements for Black.  The canonical move order in this variation would be 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nf6 5.f3 Nc6 6.c4 g6 7.Be3 Bg7 8.Nc3 0-0 9.Qd2 Nxd4 10.Bxd4 Be6 11.Be2 Qa5 12.b3 Rfc8 13.Rb1 in case someone else has some ideas.

The second possibility is to play for a quick Qb6, namely, after 5...Nc6 6.c4 Qb6, and then to continue with 'normal' dragon development...I am not sure exactly what this gains in the long run, however; possibly nothing.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #25 - 06/30/06 at 00:22:22
Post Tools
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6 8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O  Nc6 13. Ne4 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Ke7

Here I had looked at 15.Bb5 with the idea that after Rhg8 16.g4 Black's work is not done.  Looking at BladezII's main line for inspiration, 15...Rac8 is another try.  I'm sure that Black can draw the position, but on the whole I agree with Palliser's remarks -- and I am certainly one of those Black players who prefers to have a sound structure.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #24 - 06/29/06 at 05:03:07
Post Tools


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. Bxf6

(8. exd5 Qxd5 9. Nc3 (9. Bxf6 Qxd1+)  9... Bb4 10. Kf2 Bxc3
11. Qxd5  Nxd5 12. bxc3 Nd7)

8... gxf6
9. exd5 Qxd5
10. Qxd5 Bxd5
11. Nc3 Be6
12. O-O-O  Nc6
13. Bb5

(13. Ne4 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Ke7 15. Nec5 Rad8 16. Bb5 Rxd1+
17. Rxd1 Rd8 18. Rxd8 Nxd8 19. Nxe6 Nxe6 White better plan on shaking hands and take some rest for the next round.  If he pushes too far he could get in trouble i.e. 20. Bd3 Nf4
21. Bxh7 Nxg2 22. Na5 b6 23.Nc6+ Ke6 24. Nxa7 f5 {White's bishop is in trouble.})

13...     Rg8
14. g4

(14. Bxc6+ bxc6 15.g3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Ke7)
(14. Bxc6+ bxc6 15. g3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Ke7)

14...    Rc8   =

and I prefer Black still.


  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMRichardPalliser
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 305
Location: York
Joined: 03/23/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #23 - 06/28/06 at 14:27:12
Post Tools
BladezII certainly supplies some interesting analysis for Black: 12... Nc6 might well be better than the more popular 12... Nbd7. Certainly White's not worse after 12...Nc6 13 Ne4 Bh6+ 14 Kb1 Ke7 with, say, 15 Nec5, but can also try 13 Bb5. I think this position/line seems up the whole Prins: it's really a taste thing. Some black players may not like their split structure and some white players, especially I feel 3 Bb5+ exponents, might enjoy the white side of this unbalanced position. Also, as pointed out 6...a5!? is an option. People here seem well-prepared for the Prins, but I'm far from convinced that many are: I remember a brutal white win in a recent Naiditch-T.L.Petrosian game.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #22 - 06/28/06 at 06:57:58
Post Tools
I seem to recall not being satisfied with Black's position in the Suba move order, but it's been a while, and perhaps things are OK.

BladezII, I don't see any way for White to break through -- but Black has to be more careful than I had originally expected in this line, so I'd still be interested in alternatives.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #21 - 06/27/06 at 21:21:49
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 06/27/06 at 20:29:47:
Scholar, IM Palliser, and anybody else....   Do you have anything else here for White?  I am interested in discussing this line since I would like to know how White might cause trouble for Black here.  From what I can see, Black has no real problems to equalize in this line.



Maybe there is a tacit agreement with you. I'd be happy to take Black in the line above, expecially compared with the brown trouser mainlines, and I can't see any useful deviations for White as the line looks pretty forcing and a logical retort to the delay of Nc3.

This, and the ability to avoid move order trickary with Suba's idea seems to explain why the Prins doesn't crop up so much.


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #20 - 06/27/06 at 20:29:47
Post Tools
Scholar, IM Palliser, and anybody else....   Do you have anything else here for White?  I am interested in discussing this line since I would like to know how White might cause trouble for Black here.  From what I can see, Black has no real problems to equalize in this line.

  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #19 - 06/24/06 at 14:45:05
Post Tools


1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O Nc6 13.

13. Ne4 Bh6+ 14. Kb1 Ke7  Black even leads here (a tiny bit) in development). Black has the two bishops in an open board and possiblities on the g-file and he can place the rooks on the d-file also.  White is far from putting Black under pressure.  I believe this position good for Black to play.  For example--

IF
15. Bb5 then ..... 15..... Rac8

{Black is fine, well developed and his pieces are well placed.}
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #18 - 06/24/06 at 07:16:23
Post Tools
BladezII wrote on 06/24/06 at 06:32:39:
1. e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. exd5

(8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O Nc6 13.
Bb5 Rg8 14. g4 (14. Bxc6+ bxc6 15. g3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Ke7) 14... Rc8)

8... Qxd5
9. Nc3 (9. Bxf6 Qxd1+) 9... Bb4 10. Kf2 Bxc3 11. Qxd5 Nxd5 12. bxc3 Nd7


I'd also like to make e5/d5 work -- it just seems like the most natural reply to White's loosening of d5 by omitting Nc3 --  but Black's position is not as simple as I had thought it would be to play.  I think the most testing lines follow 8.Bxf6.  White can deviate from your analysis with 13.Ne4 (either Bxc6+ works or the bishop belongs elsewhere).  My unease with this line stems from the fact that the pawn structure is much more favorable to White...in the long run, I feel like Black has only an unpleasant defense, but I'll take a second look.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
BladezII
Senior Member
****
Offline


Member of chesspublishing
.com and STC Club

Posts: 402
Joined: 11/01/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #17 - 06/24/06 at 06:32:39
Post Tools
Greetings,

I am interested in discussing

5.f3     e5
6.Nb3  d5

Frankly, I have no reason to believe this is bad for Black.  I have no reason to believe Black fails to equalize here.

As a matter of principle and fact, Black has managed to play ...d5 in one go and that is significant/thematic in the Sicilian.  The lose of tempo is compensated by White's Nb3, a waste of tempo for him.


1. e4 c5 2 Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 d5 7. Bg5 Be6
8. exd5

(8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. exd5 Qxd5 10. Qxd5 Bxd5 11. Nc3 Be6 12. O-O-O Nc6 13.
Bb5 Rg8 14. g4 (14. Bxc6+ bxc6 15. g3 Bh6+ 16. Kb1 Ke7) 14... Rc8)

8... Qxd5
9. Nc3 (9. Bxf6 Qxd1+) 9... Bb4 10. Kf2 Bxc3 11. Qxd5 Nxd5 12. bxc3 Nd7
  

I am a participating member of chesspublishing.com since 1998.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Scholar
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 557
Location: Chicago
Joined: 04/26/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #16 - 06/23/06 at 06:19:58
Post Tools
Interesting stuff -- I'd only looked at 5.f3 e5 6.Bb5+ before, when Black is fine, but 6.Nb3 seems like a sterner test, since 6...d5 is definitely not the way to go for Black.

Perhaps 6...Be7 aiming to castle kingside and play for a quick f5 is the best plan?

All this makes me think that 5...Nc6 is worth a closer look.  In addition to 6.Nc3 Qb6, Black can play for an improved version of the bind with Be6 after 6...g6.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #15 - 06/22/06 at 14:38:59
Post Tools
JEH wrote on 06/13/06 at 15:39:38:
Does this line have a name? It seems to score ok for White, I guess by getting those Najdorf/Dragon/et al junkies out of book  Cool. So what's the best defence to it as Black?

To stop the bind with 5. ...e5, or accept 6.c4 which is going to come after pretty much any other move? After say 5. ...e5 6. Nb3 (6. Bb5+ doesn't seem to lead to much) d5 (otherwise White is going to play c4) 7. Bg5 Be6 8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. ed and White seems to score well although Black may be =.


Is there anything the matter with 5. ...e5 6. Nb3 a5?
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Willempie
God Member
*****
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 4312
Location: Holland
Joined: 01/07/05
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #14 - 06/22/06 at 14:21:58
Post Tools
H-HH wrote on 06/15/06 at 21:26:44:
unfortunately this line can be avoied by the simple 1 e4 c5 2Kf3 d6 3d4  Kf6 Suba's move.
fortunately few blacks know about this. Cool

I dont like 3..Nf6 because of 4 Bb5+. It would put you in a Bb5 sicilian where I dont like the black setup, though objectively there may be nothing wrong with it.

This is what happened to Fcatnik:
[Event "CSR-ch"]
[Site "Trencianske Teplice"]
[Date "1979.11.??"]
[Round "11"]
[White "Dobosz,Henryk"]
[Black "Ftacnik,Lubomir"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B51"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.Bb5+ Nd7 4.d4 Ngf6 5.e5 Qa5+ 6.Nc3 Ne4 7.Bd2 Nxc3 8.Bxd7+ Bxd7 9.Bxc3 Qa6 10.d5 Bg4 11.h3 Bh5 12.exd6 exd6 13.g4 Bg6 14.Nh4 Kd7 15.Nf5 Bxf5 16.gxf5 Re8+ 17.Kd2 Qc4 18.Qf3 Re4 19.Rad1 Rf4 20.Qg2 Rxf5 21.Kc1 h5 22.Rhe1 Rh6 23.Re4 Rg6 24.Qh1 Qxa2 25.b3 Qa6 26.f4 Rg3 27.Qe1 Rg2 28.Rd3 g5 29.Re8 Rg1 30.Qxg1 Kxe8 31.fxg5 Be7 32.g6 Rg5 33.Qe1 Qa3+ 34.Kb1 Kd7 35.gxf7 c4 36.Re3 Bf8 37.Bb4 Qa6 38.Re8 cxb3 39.Qe6+ Kc7 40.Re7+ Kb6 41.Qxd6+ Kb5 42.Qc5+  1-0

And a nice one by Shirov.
[Event "Nordhorn op act"]
[Site "Nordhorn"]
[Date "2005.09.??"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Shirov,Alexei"]
[Black "Bredemeier,Dirk"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "B53"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.d4 Nf6 4.Bb5+ Bd7 5.Bxd7+ Qxd7 6.dxc5 Nxe4 7.cxd6 Nxd6 8.0-0 Nc6 9.Bf4 0-0-0 10.Nc3 f6 11.Bxd6 Qxd6 12.Qe2 e5 13.Qc4 Qc5 14.Qg4+ Kb8 15.Rad1 Nd4 16.Nxd4 exd4 17.Ne2 f5 18.Qg3+ Bd6 19.Qxg7 Rhg8 20.Qh6 Rg6 21.Qh5 Rdg8 22.g3 Rg4 23.Rd2 Qb4 24.Rfd1 Bc5 25.Qxf5 Bb6 26.Nxd4 Qxb2 27.c4 Qc3 28.Rc2 Qa3 29.c5 Bc7 30.Nb5 Rxg3+ 31.hxg3 Rxg3+ 32.fxg3 Qxg3+ 33.Rg2 Qe3+ 34.Qf2  1-0
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMRichardPalliser
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 305
Location: York
Joined: 03/23/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #13 - 06/22/06 at 11:30:16
Post Tools
Good point, but White certainly doesn't have to halt the game at the end of McShane-Grischuk. As Jonathan showed, it's roughly equal, but both sides can try to win this unbalanced IQP position.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
Paul Hopwood
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I Love ChessPublishing!

Posts: 8
Location: York
Joined: 05/28/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #12 - 06/18/06 at 11:28:01
Post Tools
Wasn't there a McShane-Grischuk game where black played a very quick ...e6 and ...d5, which was given in the Anti-Sicilians section as just giving black easy equality?

Regards

Paul Hopwood
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
IMRichardPalliser
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 305
Location: York
Joined: 03/23/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #11 - 06/18/06 at 08:44:56
Post Tools
I think Jonathan's quite liked Suba's move-order (which remains rather unexplored IMHO) and may be he'll cover it on the Anti-Sicilians sometime?
As for the Prins, 5...e6 is a highly-respected reply, but White can then claim that the position is much more like a Taimanov than a Najdorf or Dragon: employing the Prins is partly about psychology I feel.
Should be some coverage in the forthcoming: http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/185744423X/sr=1-6/qid=1150620260/ref=sr...
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
kylemeister
God Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 4707
Location: USA
Joined: 10/24/05
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #10 - 06/16/06 at 15:17:04
Post Tools
OstapBender wrote on 06/16/06 at 13:42:33:
For what it's worth, I guess the Prins variation doesn't make sense in 2...Nc6 lines.

After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3

Black plays 5... e5 and if 6. Nb5 d6 developing the second knight is awkward.  For example 7. N1c3 is met by 7... a6 8. Na3 b5 forcing the retreat  9. Nab1.

After other sixth moves Black plays 6...d5 and gets a great game.


White can try 9. Nd5, but that is surely all right for Black.
7. c4 looks critical, with the thought that it's like a c4 Kalashnikov but without quick ...f5 stuff.  Maybe Black would try to make a nuisance of himself by means of ...Qb6.

I would rather think Black would play 5...d5 (e.g. 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bxc6 bc 8. e5 Ng8 and Black is better, I would think), or maybe 5...e6.  So I agree there's good reason White doesn't play f3 in this case.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #9 - 06/16/06 at 13:42:33
Post Tools
For what it's worth, I guess the Prins variation doesn't make sense in 2...Nc6 lines.

After 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3

Black plays 5... e5 and if 6. Nb5 d6 developing the second knight is awkward.  For example 7. N1c3 is met by 7... a6 8. Na3 b5 forcing the retreat  9. Nab1.

After other sixth moves Black plays 6...d5 and gets a great game.
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #8 - 06/16/06 at 13:28:22
Post Tools
SotN wrote on 06/16/06 at 13:08:55:
3... Nf6 is another good option for reaching main lines without too much hasle. I wanted to include it, but obviously I has forgotten it by the time I finished my post....  Embarrassed For pure Najdorf-ites this is probably the best way to reach their beloved defense.

But kaspa84 is absolutely right, this is very playable, the pawn sac
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxc5 Nxe4 5. cxd6 Nc6 6. dxe7 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Bxe7
should give black enough compensation, though for white players good at soaking up some pressure and keeping pawns it might be worth a try.


After 7.Kxd1 can't Black also play 7...Nxf2+?  

is Black OK after 8. Ke1 Nxh1 9. exf8=Q+ Kxf8?

Bering-Bekker Jensen, Politiken Cup Copenhagen 2001 ended in a draw after

10. g3 Bg4 11. Bg2 Re8+ 12. Kf1 Bxf3 13. Bxf3 Nd4 14. Bd1 h5 15. c3 Nf5 16. Bf3 h4

(maybe 16... Nhxg3+ 17.hxg3 Nxg3+ instead?)

17. g4 Nfg3+ 18. hxg3 Nxg3+ 19. Kg2 h3+ 20. Kxg3 h2 21. Nd2 h1=Q 22. Bxh1 Rxh1 23. b3 Kg8 24. Nf3 Re2 25. c4 Rf1 26. Bb2 Rxf3+ 27. Kxf3 Rxb2 28. Rd1 Rxa2 29. Rd8+ Kh7 30. Rd7 b6 31. Rxf7 Ra3 32. Ke4 Kg6 33. Rb7 Rxb3 1/2-1/2


  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SotN
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 11
Joined: 04/15/05
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #7 - 06/16/06 at 13:08:55
Post Tools
JEH wrote on 06/15/06 at 21:47:58:
SotN wrote on 06/15/06 at 10:32:25:
for Najdorf players this move-order can be very annoying.


Thanks SotN. That might be reason enough to play it!


As kaspa84 quite rightly points out:

H-HH wrote on 06/15/06 at 21:26:44:
unfortunately this line can be avoied by the simple 1 e4 c5 2Ktf3 d6 3d4  Ktf6 Suba's move.
fortunately few blacks know about this. Cool


3... Nf6 is another good option for reaching main lines without too much hasle. I wanted to include it, but obviously I has forgotten it by the time I finished my post....  Embarrassed For pure Najdorf-ites this is probably the best way to reach their beloved defense.

But kaspa84 is absolutely right, this is very playable, the pawn sac
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxc5 Nxe4 5. cxd6 Nc6 6. dxe7 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Bxe7
should give black enough compensation, though for white players good at soaking up some pressure and keeping pawns it might be worth a try.
Also OK is 6. Bd3 Nxd6, followed by either ...,e6 or ..,g6 both according to taste.

Thanks to kaspa84 for pointing it out! And sorry to kaspa84 for reveiling some details about it....

Edit
I missed OstapBender post, hope this answers him a bit. And yes, I'm indeed somewhat sceptical that black has enough compensation after 7.Kxd1 Bxe7. Cause in the one game I played with it I (barely) managed to win, against significant lower opposition:

[White "Opponent"]
[Black "Me"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 Nf6 4. dxc5 Nxe4 5. cxd6 Nc6 6. dxe7 Qxd1+ 7.Kxd1 Bxe7 8. Be3 Bf5 $6 (8... Bg4 $5) 9. Bd3 O-O-O 10. Ke2 Bf6 $6 11. Nbd2 $1 Nd6 12. Bxf5+ Nxf5 13. Rab1 Rhe8 14. Rhe1 Nb4 15. Kf1 Nxe3+ 16.Rxe3 Rxe3 17. fxe3 Kb8 18. c3 Nd3 19. Ke2 Nc5 20. Nd4 $1 Na4 21. N2f3 h5 22.Rc1 $2 (22. Kd3 $5 $16) 22... Nxb2 $1 $13 23. Rb1 Na4 24. Nc6+ Kc7 25. Nxd8 Nxc3+ 26. Kd3 Nxb1 27. Nxf7 b5 28. e4 Ba1 29. e5 Nc3 30. Nd4 b4 31. e6  Nd5 32. Kc4 Ne3+ $1 33. Kc5 Bxd4+ 34. Kxd4 Nxg2 35. Ke5 Nh4 36. Kd5 Ng6 37. Kc5 Nf4 38. Ng5 h4 39. Kxb4 Kd6 40. Ka5 Nxe6 41. Nxe6 Kxe6 42. Ka6 g5 43. Kxa7 g4 44. a4 g3 45. hxg3 hxg3 46. a5 g2 47. a6 g1=Q+ 48. Kb7 Qb1+ 49. Kc7 Qc2+ 50. Kb6 Qb3+ 51. Ka7 Qb5
0-1

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
OstapBender
God Member
*****
Offline


There is no spoon.

Posts: 1491
Location: not in Kansas anymore
Joined: 10/16/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #6 - 06/16/06 at 13:06:38
Post Tools
H-HH wrote on 06/15/06 at 21:26:44:
unfortunately this line can be avoied by the simple 1 e4 c5 2Kf3 d6 3d4  Kf6 Suba's move.
fortunately few blacks know about this. Cool


Is 4.Nc3 automatic here?

What's the verdict on 4.dxc5 Nxe4?
  

"If God had wanted us to vote, he would have given us candidates."  -Jay Leno
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #5 - 06/15/06 at 21:47:58
Post Tools
SotN wrote on 06/15/06 at 10:32:25:
for Najdorf players this move-order can be very annoying.



Thanks SotN. That might be reason enough to play it!
  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
H-HH
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 93
Location: Brasil
Joined: 03/18/06
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #4 - 06/15/06 at 21:26:44
Post Tools
unfortunately this line can be avoied by the simple 1 e4 c5 2Kf3 d6 3d4  Kf6 Suba's move.
fortunately few blacks know about this. Cool
  

French defence forever, Fide 2035.
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SotN
YaBB Newbies
*
Offline


I love ChessPublishing
.com!

Posts: 11
Joined: 04/15/05
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #3 - 06/15/06 at 10:32:25
Post Tools
Hi,

This line has given me some problems in the past, and because 5...e5 was never my favorite reply, some other options are:

- 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e6 (or 5...Nc6 6. c4 e6 7. Nc3 Be7) 6. c4 Be7 7. Nc3 Nc6 8. Be3 O-O 9. Qd2 (or 9. Nc2) d5 Was a line from NCO I think, which was given as equal, based on Lombardy - Fischer. Beware to play 8...0-0 in stead of 8...d5 though, I lost once straight from the opening making this mistake:
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 Nc6 6. c4 e6 7. Nc3 Be7 8. Be3 d5? (8... O-O) 9. cxd5 exd5 10. exd5 (10. Bb5!?) 10... Nxd5 11. Nxd5 (11. Bb5 !?) 11... Qxd5 12. Nxc6 (12. Bb5) (12. Nb5) 12... Qxc6 (12... bxc6 was better) 13. Rc1 Qe6 14. Bb5+ Bd7 15. Bxd7+ Qxd7 16. O-O! +/- I never managed to castle in this game.

- Another option is 5. f3 Nc6 6. c4 Qb6 though I never really studied it. I only seem to remember 7. Nc2 being a good scorer.

- A transposition to the Accelerated Dragon with 5. f3 Nc6 6. c4 Nxd4 7. Qxd4 g6 is a way to stay on the beaten path, black should be OK in this line, though the Accelerated Dragon has to be your thing.

Of course, all these lines assume white playing 6. c4, 6. Nc3 returns to lines with less "Maroczy feel", though you then have to play the Classical with 6. f3 (English Attack with Nc6, or the 6... Nxd4 7. Qxd4 g6 line), or transpose into the normal dragon (Yuguslav) with 6...g6.
This all is a matter of taste and variation of open sicilian, for Najdorf players this move-order can be very annoying.

Hope this helps a bit,
SotN

PS:
The Lombardy - Fischer game:

[Site "USA-ch New York, NY USA"]
[Date "1960.??.??"]
[Round "2"]
[White "Lombardy, William J"]
[Black "Fischer, Robert J"]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 Nc6 6. c4 e6 7. Nc3 Be7 8. Be3 O-O 9. Nc2 d5 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxd5 Nxd5 12. Qxd5 Qc7 13. Qb5 Bd7 14. Rc1 Nb4 15. Nxb4 Qxc1+ 16. Bxc1 Bxb5 17. Nd5 Bh4+ 18. g3 Bxf1 19. Rxf1 Bd8 20. Bd2 Rc8 21. Bc3 f5 22. e5 Rc5 23. Nb4 Ba5 24. a3 Bxb4 25. axb4 Rd5 26. Ke2 Kf7 27. h4 Ke6 28. Ke3 Rc8 29. Rg1 Rc4 30. Re1 Rxc3+ 31. bxc3 Rxe5+ 32. Kd2 Rxe1 33. Kxe1 Kd5 34. Kd2 Kc4 35. h5 b6 36. Kc2 g5 37. h6 f4 38. g4 a5 39. bxa5 bxa5 40. Kb2 a4 41. Ka3 Kxc3 42. Kxa4 Kd4 43. Kb4 Ke3 0-1

PPS:
My games in this line:

[Date "2003.??.??"]
[White "Opponent"]
[Black "Me"]
[Result "0-1"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e6 6. c4 Be7 7. Nc3 Nc6 8. Be3 O-O 9. Qd2 d5 10. cxd5 exd5 11. Nxc6 bxc6 12. exd5 Nxd5 13. Nxd5 cxd5 14. Bd3 Bh4+ 15. g3 d4 16. Bf4 Re8+ 17. Kf2 Bf6 18. h4 Bb7 19. Rae1 Bd5 20. a3 h5 21. Rxe8+ Qxe8 22. Re1 Qc6 23. Qe2 g6 24. Bb5 Qb6 25. Bd3 Rc8 26. Rc1 Qd8 27. b4 Rxc1 28. Bxc1 Qc7 29. Qc2 Qd7 30. Kg2 Be5 31. Bd2 Qg4 32. Be4 Qxg3+ 33. Kf1 Qh3+ 34. Ke2 Qg2+ 35. Kd3 Qf1# 0-1

[Date "2005.??.??"]
[White "Opponent"]
[Black "Me"]
[Result "1-0"]

1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 Nc6 6. c4 e6 7. Nc3 Be7 8. Be3 d5 9. cxd5 exd5 10. exd5 Nxd5 11. Nxd5 Qxd5 12. Nxc6 Qxc6 13. Rc1 Qe6 14. Bb5+ Bd7 15. Bxd7+ Qxd7 16. O-O Qb5 17. Rc7 Rd8 18. Qe1 Rd7 19. Rc8+ Rd8 20. Rc7 Rd7 21. Rc8+ Rd8 22. Rxd8+ Kxd8 23. Qc3 Qc6 24. Qd4+ Qd7 25. Qxa7 Ke8 26. Qa8+ Bd8 27. Bb6 Ke7 28. Qa3+ Kf6 29. Qc3+ Kg6 30. Bd4 f6 31. Qc2+ Qf5 32. Qxf5+ Kxf5 33. Re1 Ba5 34. Re7 Rd8 35. Be3 Bd2 36. Kf2 g5 37. Rxh7 b5 38. h4 Kg6 39. Rb7 Rd3 40. Ke2 Rxe3+ 41. Kxd2 Re5 42. hxg5 Rxg5 43. g4 Re5 44. Rd7 Kg5 45. Rd4 Kh4 46. Rf4 Re6 47. Rf5 b4 48. Kd3 Ra6 49. Kc4 Rxa2 50. Kb3 Ra6 51. Kxb4 Rb6+ 52. Kc3 Kg3 53. b4 Ra6 54. Kc4 1-0


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #2 - 06/14/06 at 11:53:19
Post Tools
Quote:
Certainly the whole line's an imteresting surprise weapon for white as I fully realised when recently writing about it.


Where have you been writing about it? Are there any other sources that cover it? I only discovered it by accident recently when looking at some repetoires in ChessBase and noticing some GMs have done well with it.


  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
IMRichardPalliser
Senior Member
****
Offline



Posts: 305
Location: York
Joined: 03/23/04
Re: 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
Reply #1 - 06/14/06 at 10:52:45
Post Tools
Agreed this line is under-rated and not so well-known, being not an Anti-Sicilian (and so not in Rogo or Gallagher) but a rare Open Sicilian. It seems to be called the Prins Variation and 5...e5 6 Nb3 gives chances for an edge, especially after 6...d5 as you indicate: early ...a5-a4 ideas are probably better, as in McShane-Ponomariov from Biel a couple of years ago.
Certainly the whole line's an imteresting surprise weapon for white as I fully realised when recently writing about it.
  
Back to top
WWW  
IP Logged
 
JEH
God Member
*****
Offline


"Football is like Chess,
only without the dice."

Posts: 1456
Location: Reading
Joined: 09/22/05
Gender: Male
1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cd 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3
06/13/06 at 15:39:38
Post Tools
Does this line have a name? It seems to score ok for White, I guess by getting those Najdorf/Dragon/et al junkies out of book  Cool. So what's the best defence to it as Black?

To stop the bind with 5. ...e5, or accept 6.c4 which is going to come after pretty much any other move? After say 5. ...e5 6. Nb3 (6. Bb5+ doesn't seem to lead to much) d5 (otherwise White is going to play c4) 7. Bg5 Be6 8. Bxf6 gxf6 9. ed and White seems to score well although Black may be =.

  

Those who want to go by my perverse footsteps play such pawn structure with fuzzy atypical still strategic orientations

Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, stuck in the middlegame with you
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bookmarks: del.icio.us Digg Facebook Google Google+ Linked in reddit StumbleUpon Twitter Yahoo