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Normal Topic Marshall revisted: 15.Qf3?! and others (Read 4081 times)
Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Marshall revisted: 15.Qf3?! and others
Reply #5 - 06/17/06 at 01:46:35
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By the way, thanks Ostap and Lee for you quick responses.

I don't know that 15.Qf3 is going to gain popularity, but it's disheartening for Black to have to worry about another variation that may be good for White.
  
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Re: Marshall revisted: 15.Qf3?! and others
Reply #4 - 06/17/06 at 01:41:43
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Ostap,

I unwittingly followed that advice (leaving the Queen on h3 and playing R(h)e8).  I never got quite enough play for the pawn and ending up defending for the rest of the game. 

I don't know that playing Rae8 would have improved my position at all, and have tentatively come to the conclusion that Black must seek improvements in the lines beginning with 15...Bg4 16.Qg2 Qh4. 

Is there any hope for Black here, or does Black have to search for advantages even earlier?
  
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Re: Marshall revisted: 15.Qf3?! and others
Reply #3 - 06/16/06 at 14:15:45
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In any event it looks like 15.Qf3 used to labeled dubious (by Nunn I guess), and therefore was not played much, but now it seems to be revitalized.

I think the Elburg's suggestion of leaving the queen on h3 and playing 16...Rae8 looks odd but the idea behind it is logical.  Maybe this is the way to go for Black.
  

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Re: Marshall revisted: 15.Qf3?! and others
Reply #2 - 06/15/06 at 21:10:37
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15. Qf3 is not so clear.

After 15.. Bg4 16. Qg2 Qh4 17. Be3 Bf3 18. Qf1 f5  19. Nd2 f4 
White has 20. Bxf4, which is not in Nunn's 1989 book. 

Harding now gives:

20...Bxf4  21. Nxf3 Bxg3 22. hxg3 Qxf3 23. Qe2 and White emerges a pawn ahead

20...Rxf4  21. Nxf3 Rxf3 22. Bd1 Raf8  23.Qg2  (23.Bxf3 Qxf3  24. Qe2)  23...Qg4  24. Bxf3 Rxf3 and eventually 1/2-1/2 in Buettner-Blankenberg, corr 1999, but White should be a shade better with rook and two pawns against bishop and knight.

Assume you meant 16..Rae8 or 16...Rfe8 in your game, which is what Harding recommends.   He cites analysis by Elburg:  17. Rxe8 Rxe8  18. Qxh3 Bxh3  19. Bd2 Re2  20. c4 Ne3  21. fxe3 Rg2  22. Kh1 Rf2  23. Nc3 Rxd2  24. c5 Be7  25. Re1 Bg5 = 


  
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Re: Marshall revisted: 15.Qf3?! and others
Reply #1 - 06/15/06 at 20:51:02
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/15/06 at 18:49:53:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0
8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4  
14. g3 Qh3
 
Does anyone have analysis that either proves 15.Qf3 is simply bad or more analysis than Nunn's mystical "equal but unclear"?


Harding recommends either 17...Rae8 (or 17...Rfe8) instead of Nunn's 17...Bf3.

Elburg suggests keeping the queen on h3 and playing 16...Rae8
The idea is the queen is aready good on h3, so it shouldn't move to the inferior square h5

This is some of Harding's analysis:

16...Qh5 17.Be3!
Supposedly 'refuted' by 17...Bf3, but White improves on the previously analyzed line with 20.Bxf4!.
17...Rae8

Nunn's line (now apparently refuted) is: 17...Bf3 18.Qf1 f5 19.Nd2 f4 20.Bxf4! (not in Nunn's 1989 book). 20...Rxf4

(20...Bxf4 21.Nxf3 Bxg3 22.hxg3 Qxf3 23.Qe2 leaves Black a pawn down without compensation.)

21.Nxf3 Rxf3 22.Bd1 Raf8 23.Qg2 Qg4 24.Bxf3 Rxf3 Harding doesn't trust this line for Black.)


(17...Bh3 looks unsatisfactory after 18.Bd1)

18.Nd2 Re6

(Another possibility is 18...Bh3 19.Qh1 Re6 20.Ne4 Be7 21.Nc5 Bxc5 22.dxc5 Bg4 =)

19.Nf1 (19.a4!?) 19...Bh3 20.Bd1 Nxe3

[20...Qxd1?! 21.Raxd1 Bxg2 22.Kxg2 Rfe8 23.Bd2 White gradually simplifies and eases the pressure, retaining his extra pawn.]

21.Nxe3 Qh6 22.Qf3 (unclear)

Cheers,

Ostap
  

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Marshall revisted: 15.Qf3?! and others
06/15/06 at 18:49:53
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Hi,

I was just looking up one of the main lines in the Marshall Gambit and tried to find some interesting lines that may have come up in discussion.  I didn't do a full search, but since there was nothing in the first 8 pages of threads I don't mind starting a new one.

First of all, here are the the moves:

1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. 0-0 Be7 6. Re1 b5 7. Bb3 0-0
8. c3 d5 9. exd5 Nxd5 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 c6 12. d4 Bd6 13. Re1 Qh4 
14. g3 Qh3

I know the main lines include 15.Be3!, 15.Qd3!?, 15.Bd5 (=), and 15.Re4!? 

However, I recently faced 15.Qf3.  I was sure it was bad but failed to punish it properly.  Nunn recommends 15.Qf3 Bg4 16.Qg2 Qh4 claiming it's equal but unclear.  I found one game played by professionals, and that went 15...Be6, with Black losing rather blandly.  I played 15...Re8 and also got the worse of the position. 

Does anyone have analysis that either proves 15.Qf3 is simply bad or more analysis than Nunn's mystical "equal but unclear"?

Also, please feel free to discuss other move 15 choices for White!
  
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