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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) C26-C27: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!? (Read 8092 times)
LeeRoth
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #14 - 06/20/06 at 02:54:32
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Here's a vote for Art of the Middlegame by Keres and Kotov.  A slim volume and hard to find, but a classic well worth having.
  
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OstapBender
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #13 - 06/19/06 at 19:58:38
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kylemeister and Topnotch:

Thanks for the recommendation and info on Marovic's Dynamic Pawn Play.  Sounds like a book worth getting.
  

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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #12 - 06/19/06 at 17:53:45
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OstapBender wrote on 06/19/06 at 16:30:08:
TopNotch wrote on 06/19/06 at 06:12:52:
Suggested Reading:

Dynamic Pawn Play In Chess - D Marovic (Have'nt read this one but the reviews are impressive)


Some reviews:
Watson: http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jw/jw_dynamic_pawn_play.html
Donaldson: http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jd/jd_dynamic_pawn_play.html

Watson's review seems mixed, but contains some strong positive comments.  Donaldson's review is too brief to be very informative.

Anyone have this book and care to comment on it?

Soltis's 'Pawn Structure Chess' might also be worth a look.


Both of those are among my favourite books.  I suppose Dynamic Pawn Play could be viewed as a sort of update of Pawn Structure Chess (DPP was written 25 years after PSC, though there were some additions/updates in a later edition of PSC).  They are certainly somewhat similar in their basic approach and succinct writing/annotating style.  There are some differences, e.g. DPP is organised by closed/open/semi-open centre and themes like "central counterblow" while PSC is arranged in a way which more directly relates to specific openings (e.g. the Queen's Gambit family, the Caro-Slav structure).  They cover a somewhat different range of stuff, for instance PSC discusses IQP positions while DPP doesn't.  Those were discussed in Marovic's foregoing book (Understanding Pawn Play in Chess), which addresses topics like isolated/doubled/backward pawns and pawn chains. In terms of subject matter/position types addressed I suppose PSC can be seen as straddling the Marovic books.  I would say that DPP is particularly strong on the King's Indian and Sicilian and could serve as a good overview of those openings.  Although both books are mainly about the middlegame, Marovic pays somewhat more attention to opening particularities (and in one case gives an extensive analysis of an endgame, though that is unusual).  One more comparison:  PSC and DPP are both based on complete annotated games, but in DPP all the games have about the same amount of notes, while PSC has main games and supplementary, very lightly annotated games (comparable to the way the articles in the NIC yearbooks are organised).   
  
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OstapBender
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #11 - 06/19/06 at 16:30:08
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TopNotch wrote on 06/19/06 at 06:12:52:
Suggested Reading:

Dynamic Pawn Play In Chess - D Marovic (Have'nt read this one but the reviews are impressive)


Some reviews:
Watson: http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jw/jw_dynamic_pawn_play.html
Donaldson: http://www.jeremysilman.com/book_reviews_jd/jd_dynamic_pawn_play.html

Watson's review seems mixed, but contains some strong positive comments.  Donaldson's review is too brief to be very informative.

Anyone have this book and care to comment on it?

Soltis's 'Pawn Structure Chess' might also be worth a look.
  

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TopNotch
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #10 - 06/19/06 at 06:12:52
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Chess Strategy 101

Pawn Storm when Centre is blocked or fixed.

Should your opponent be very passively placed and you have absolute control of the Centre, it maybe possible to successfully Pawn Storm, even on the same side as your castled position no matter what type of centre exists.  

Essentialy a study of the various types of Pawn Centres will help you decide when Pawn Storming is appropriate.

Pawn Storming is almost always indicated when the players Castle on opposite wings, since this does not involve a weakening of one's own King's Position.

There are also some other scenarios where Pawn Storming is the way go.

Suggested Reading:

Pawn Power - Hans Kmoch (The Bible on Pawn Play...an oldy but goody)
Play Like a GM - A Kotov  (Nice chapter succintly explaining the various types of pawn centres)
Dynamic Pawn Play In Chess - D Marovic (Have'nt read this one but the reviews are impressive)
Understanding Pawn Play In Chess - D Marovic (The prequel to above title and is more basic but no less important)  

What are u waiting for, time to whip out the ole Credit Card.

Topster Smiley
  

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MNb
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #9 - 06/19/06 at 01:35:50
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Vukovic in "Der Rochade-Angriff spends a few pages on it and so does Euwe in judgment and plan. I don't know if there is a book on this special subject.
You might play through the following games:
Keres-Petrov, EST-LET 1939
Alekhine-Weenink, Prague 1931
Schlechter-Tarrasch, Monte Carlo 1903
Rubinstein-Teichmann, Vienna m 1908 (4)
Tolush-Kotov, URSch-14, Moscow 1945
Katetov-Golombek, Prague 1946 (maybe not the best example, as this is a very well known opening)
Alexander-Pachman, Hilversum 1947
Mikenas-Flohr, Hastings 1937

These old examples are imo easier to understand, than more modern but also more complicated ones.

As said, in the KGD f4-f5 almost always is a good reply to Black's kingside castling. The reason is White's full control of d5, which prevents the thematic counterblow in the centre.
  

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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #8 - 06/18/06 at 22:16:01
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MNb, that is great stuff.

One of the many shortcomings that makes me blind to strategies like yours is that I am terrified of attacking with a pawn storm and having it backfire. I have no sense for when I should try one. Are there any general principles on this topic in any books?
  
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OstapBender
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #7 - 06/18/06 at 21:56:18
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MNb wrote on 06/18/06 at 12:05:29:
@Ostapbender
I must disappoint you. I haven't looked at the variation since then.


No problem, I still have the analysis you did in 2002 or so.

If anyone's interested, here are some links to that analysis:

http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/nieuweboers_fix.htm

http://hem.passagen.se/tjmisha/notasgoodasitusedtobe.html

http://www.gilachess.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=ChessArticles&file=article&...

http://gilachess.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=ChessArticles&file=article&sid=...

and to the discussion thread on Thomas Johansson's book:

http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1105472123/0
« Last Edit: 06/18/06 at 23:21:02 by OstapBender »  

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MNb
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #6 - 06/18/06 at 12:05:29
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[Event "SUI-chT"]
[Site "Switzerland"]
[Date "2001.03.04"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Herb,Pascal"]
[Black "Rüetschi,Urs"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C27"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Bf2+ 7.Kf1 Ne3+
7...h5 is worth investigating, as 8.h3 Ne3+ gives an improved version. White might try 8.Nh3 or the normal 8.Nf3. Both still can be answered with Ne3+ as Black's 7th move is not useless.

8.Bxe3 Bxe3 9.Qh5 0-0?!
I think 9...Rf8 better; pointe 10.Qxh7 Bh6 ideas Nb8-d7-f6 and Qh4+.

10.h4
If Black has castled a pawn storm almost always is good for White.
I don't like 10.Nd5 Bh6 11.Nf3 c6 12.Nc3. White has wasted two tempi and Black has improved his position. Who says A, must say B too, so 10.Nd5 Bh6 11.f6 Nd7 12.Ne7+ Kh8 13.fxg7+ Bxg7 certainly is consequent.
a)14.Nxc8 Nf6 followed by Rxc8, c6 and d5 with at least equality.
b)14.Nf5 Nf6 15.Qf3 Bxf5 16.Qxf5 c6 17.Nf3 d5 and again Black is at least equal.
Probably more precise is 10.Nf3 Nd7 (c6 11.h4 is the game) 11.Nd5 Nf6 12.Nxf6+ Qxf6 13.g4 Qe7 14.h4 and I would rather have White.

10...c6?
Too slow. Better 10...Nd7.

11.Nf3 Qf6
I suspect Willempie has been analyzing blindfold, as 11...g6?? 12.fxg6 wins on the spot. So does 11...b5?? 12.Ng5.
11...h6 12.Ke2 Bd4 13.g4 d5 14.Bb3 and White is better.
11...Nd7 12.Ng5 Nf6 13.Bxf7+ Kh8 14.Qf3 Bxg5 (Bd4 is a better try) 15.hxg5 Rxf7 16.gxf6 Rxf6 17.Ke2 d5 18.g4 with a smooth pawn storm.

12.Ng5 h6 13.Ke2
Why is this ridiculous? White also involves his last piece in the attack.

13...Bd4
13...Bxg5? is suicide: 14.hxg5 Qxg5 15.Qxg5 hxg5 16.Rh2 1-0.

14.Raf1 Bxc3 15.bxc3 b5 16.Bb3 a5 17.a3 Ra7 18.g4 a4 19.Ba2 d5 20.exd5 Qd6 21.dxc6 Qxa3 22.Qg6 hxg5 23.f6 1-0
My conclusion is, that Black faces big problems after 10.Nf3.

@Ostapbender
I must disappoint you. I haven't looked at the variation since then.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #5 - 06/16/06 at 23:04:53
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Hope this is not getting off topic too much:

After 1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d3 Bc5 4. Nc3 d6 5. f4

then insertion of two knight moves 5...Nc6 and 6. Nf3 followed by 6 ...Ng4 gives a position which arises out of the Classical KGD which is analogous to 5 ...Ng4 being discussed in this thread.  IMHO, these are both fascinating lines.

MNb:  

I remember that you did some analysis on KGD line which appeared on Thomas Johansson's web site (and later in his KG book).  What is the current verdict on 6 ...Ng4?  I know it used to be considered dubious, is it playable now, unclear?

Compared to 5 ...Ng4, whose prospects are improved by the insertion of the two knight moves?  

Assuming that Black's ...Nc6 has marginal impact on the position, then White's Nf3 has the benefit of bringing another piece into the attack, but the drawback of temporarily blocking Qh5 - which factor is more important?
  

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MNb
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #4 - 06/16/06 at 20:22:38
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The books on the KGD usually do not mention this variation, because they recommend White to play 1.e4 e5 2.f4 Bc5 3.Nf3 or 3.Nc3 d6 4.Nf3.
My books on the Bishop's Game and the Vienna Game (Harding, Tseitlin/Glaskov) both do not mention 6...Bf2+.
In my notes I only see Jakubowski-Poniatowski,1998 with 9.Qh5+ +=. Black might have 7...h5 8.h3 Ne3+ 9.Bxe3 Bxe3 as in Enevoldsen-Kuijpers,1964. Sunday I will look at this in more detail.
  

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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #3 - 06/16/06 at 17:04:00
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OstapBender and Willempie: thanks for the responses. I'm presently analyzing your suggestions with the help of Fritz and will post the results.
  
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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #2 - 06/16/06 at 12:43:32
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I like the idea of the f5-f6 push in both of your lines.  Maybe it doesn't have to be played immediately, though.  Some stuff to consider:

For your 10...Bh6 line, I found a game (Lo Presti-Parma, Villa Ballester LV op 2005; in the actual game the position was reached via 9. Nd5 Bh6 10. Qh5 0-0) which continued:

11. Nf3

[instead of your 11. f6 Nd7 12. Ne7+ Kh8 13. fxg7+ Bxg7 14. Nf5 (here I wondered whether 14. Nxc8 might be worth considering; e.g., 14... Nf6 15. Qg5 Rxc8 16. Nf3)]

11... c6 12. Nc3 Nd7 13. g4 Nf6 14. Qh4 Bf4 15. g5 Ne8 16. g6 Qxh4 17. Bxf7+ Kh8 18. Nxh4 Nf6 19. Bb3 Bg5 (19... h6 looks possible) 20. Nf3 Bf4 21. gxh7 Kxh7 22. Ke2 d5 23. Rag1 Bd7 24. Ng5+ Bxg5 25. Rxg5 Rae8 26. Rhg1 Re7 27. R1g3 Be8 28. exd5 cxd5 29. Nxd5 Nxd5 30. Bxd5 Rf6 31. Rh3+ Rh6 32. Rxh6+ Kxh6 33. Rg3 Bh5+ 34. Bf3 Bxf3+ 35. Kxf3 b5 36. c3 a5 37. Ke4 Re8 38. Rg6+ Kh7 39. Rb6 1-0

For you 10...Bc5 line

What about 11. Nf3 here as well?

then after 11... h6 (of course not 11... f6?? 12. Nxf6+ Kh8 13. Qxh7#) it looks like your move 12. f6 has more impact.

  

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Re: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
Reply #1 - 06/16/06 at 10:05:24
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I am not sure if 10. Nd5 is best. Black can play 10.. g6 followed by a bishop retreat (maybe even Qg5). I think 10. h4 may be better as you have to get the h-rook in play and it stops black from occupying g5. Still I dont see anything major for white. I dont have any books on these openings but I suspect that both Mnb (I suspect him of owning every book on gambits from Spielmann to the 70s) and Taljechin (our resident KG guru) have looked at this variation.

The only game with Qh5 and 0-0 I found is this (note that both 13th moves are ridiculous, black should exchange on g5 and white must have a better move as well. Also 11.. g6 followed by d5 and h5 may be something for black):
[Event "SUI-chT"]
[Site "Switzerland"]
[Date "2001.03.04"]
[Round "9"]
[White "Herb,Pascal"]
[Black "Rueetschi,Urs"]
[Result "1-0"]
[Eco "C27"]
1.e4 Nf6 2.Nc3 e5 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.d3 d6 5.f4 Ng4 6.f5 Bf2+ 7.Kf1 Ne3+ 8.Bxe3 Bxe3 9.Qh5 0-0 10.h4 c6 11.Nf3 Qf6 12.Ng5 h6 13.Ke2 Bd4 14.Raf1 Bxc3 15.bxc3 b5 16.Bb3 a5 17.a3 Ra7 18.g4 a4 19.Ba2 d5 20.exd5 Qd6 21.dxc6 Qxa3 22.Qg6 hxg5 23.f6  1-0
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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C26-C27: KGD/Bishops/Vienna: 6...Bxf2+!?
06/16/06 at 05:59:59
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I am building my white repertoire using Emms' 'Attacking with 1 e4', where he suggests the Bishop's opening in response to 1...e5. There is one very tricky line he doesn't address, so I'm tackling it solo. I thought I'd seek the wisdom of the chesspublishing brainiacs.

The well-known, tactically dangerous line, begins:
1. e4 e5 2. Bc4 Nf6 3. d6 Bc5 4. Nc3 d6 5. f4 Ng4 [Emms says, "This looks very enticing for Black, but in fact it's white who has all the fun!"]
Note this position is often reached via the KGD and Vienna Game as well.

6. f5

Emms does a nice job with many sixth-move possibilities for black (p. 58 of his book), such as Nf2, h5, and Qh4+. He doesn't mention 6...Bf2+, nor do any of the references I have at my disposal, so I've dangerously struck out on my own.

So, we continue with likely moves:
6...Bf2+ 7. Kf1 Ne3+ 8. Bxe3 Bxe3 9. Qh5 (threatens #) 0-0 10. Nd5.

Black has two major ways to save his Bishop:
A. 10...Bc5
B. 10...Bh6

A. 10...Bc5 11. f6 gxf6 12. Qh6, and white seems to have begun a nice attack.

B. 10...Bh6 [Fritz9 gives the position an =/+ (-0.28)]
11. f6 Nd7 12. Ne7+ Kh8 13. fxg7 Bxg7 14. Nf5 (? maybe ?)

This is still slightly in Black's favor (-0.30), but it looks like it will be a fun fight. On the other hand, black has lots more options (e.g., f5, Nf6, Qf6).

If anyone has any comments on this analysis, especially line B, I'd love to hear them!
« Last Edit: 09/21/11 at 06:03:19 by Smyslov_Fan »  
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