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Poll Question: Best non-QG after 1.d4 d5
bars   pie

2.Bg5 Hodgson Attack    
  10 (10.4%)
2.Nc3 Veresov    
  14 (14.6%)
2.Nf3 Torre    
  15 (15.6%)
2.Nf3 Colle    
  15 (15.6%)
2.Nf3 Colle Zukertort    
  19 (19.8%)
2.Nf3 London    
  6 (6.2%)
2.Bf4 London    
  14 (14.6%)
2.e3 Stonewall Attack    
  3 (3.1%)




Total votes: 96
« Created by: TalJechin on: 06/18/06 at 20:46:00 »
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a QG? (Read 52026 times)
Willempie
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #94 - 04/11/07 at 09:03:08
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The question mark was there to offset our original exclam  Smiley
But yes I am more of an initiave killer/endgame enthusiast than a isolani addict. To illustrate my point here's a game from last year in this exact line. I never heard of the black player, but if he beats Vaisser with it...

[Event "FRA-chT Top 16 GpA"]
[Site "Nancy"]
[Date "2006.02.03"]
[Round "3"]
[White "Vaisser,Anatoli"]
[Black "Galdunts,Sergey"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "D40"]
1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.e3 Nf6 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.a3 cxd4 7.exd4 dxc4 8.Bxc4 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 b6 11.d5 Na5 12.Ba2 Nxd5 13.Nxd5 exd5 14.Qxd5 Be6 15.Qxd8 Raxd8 16.Bxe6 fxe6 17.b4 Bf6 18.Ra2 Nc4 19.b5 Bc3 20.Rf1 Nd6 21.a4 Ne4 22.h3 Rc8 23.Ng5 Nxg5 24.Bxg5 Bd4 25.Re1 Rf5 26.Bh4 Kf7 27.g4 Rfc5 28.Ree2 h5 29.Bg3 hxg4 30.hxg4 Rc3 31.Kg2 R8c4 32.Re4 e5
0-1

  

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Markovich
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #93 - 04/07/07 at 16:09:30
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Willempie wrote on 04/06/07 at 06:14:33:
I am talking something along the lines:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bxc4 e6 5.Nf3 c5 which if memory serves correctly is the main line. Now 6.a3 is definately not the most testing move to use an understatement.

I can transpose to your line by 6.a3 Nc6 (I wouldnt play it in this position, but I think it isnt bad at all) but I still dont see the advantage. Eg
1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3?! dxc4 7.Bxc4 cxd4 8.exd4 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 b6 and now I think only 11.d5 makes sense to take advantage of the bishop's position, though I doubt you can get much after 11...exd5.


I can only say that your understanding of chess is very different from mine if you would mark 6. a3 with "?!".  This is considered a good move in my sources, as well.  I'm not saying that White is burning up the chessboard, only that he is playing good chess.

Also I think that White's chances are very good after 9. 0-0 in the line you quote.
« Last Edit: 04/08/07 at 13:38:16 by Markovich »  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #92 - 04/06/07 at 20:52:41
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I would say, that 7...cxd4 is premature. Exactly in those IQP positions the move 2.a3 (or 6.a3) can become useful. All in all I agree with Willempie though.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #91 - 04/06/07 at 06:14:33
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I am talking something along the lines:
1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 Nf6 4.Bxc4 e6 5.Nf3 c5 which if memory serves correctly is the main line. Now 6.a3 is definately not the most testing move to use an understatement.

I can transpose to your line by 6.a3 Nc6 (I wouldnt play it in this position, but I think it isnt bad at all) but I still dont see the advantage. Eg
1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3?! dxc4 7.Bxc4 cxd4 8.exd4 Be7 9.0-0 0-0 10.Re1 b6 and now I think only 11.d5 makes sense to take advantage of the bishop's position, though I doubt you can get much after 11...exd5.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #90 - 04/05/07 at 18:52:07
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Markovich wrote on 04/05/07 at 17:32:14:
Willempie wrote on 04/05/07 at 06:59:24:
Markovich wrote on 04/03/07 at 21:09:29:
Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.

Why? The capture on c4 is a decent option in for example the Petrosian qid, to which it can easily transpose.


Can it be we're not talking about the same line?  1. d4 e6  2. a3 d5  3. e3 and now say 3...Nf6  4. c4 or 3...c5 4. c4, I don't think an immediate or early ...dxc4 is very good for Black.  Both sides of the QGD Normal have the theme of an early a3 (or a6), since it facilitates play with the IQP.  E.g. 1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3! after which Black's 6...dxc4 would be considered a somewhat problematic move.  Black should at least wait until White moves his KB.  A good move for Black, indeed, is 6...a6.  

But even with the black pieces, and even if White doesn't play a3, you can play ...a6, play your KB to e7 or d6, and still have a fairly reasonable game when White plays dxc5 followed by cxd5, saddling you with the IQP and loss of tempo.

The pawn on a3 facilitates ideas like Bc4-b3-c2, Qd3.  Or on occasion, Bc4-a2-b1, Qd3.  And a6 analogously with the black pieces.


But this sounds like you could be heading for/transposing to something like 1. d4 d5 2. c4 dc 3. Nf3 Nf6 4. e3 e6 4. Bxc4 c5 5. a3, i.e. fine for Black.  I agree that 6. a3 dc in that Semi-Tarrasch seems doubtful for Black, but I think it has to do with the early...Nc6 being unfavorable in that environment.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #89 - 04/05/07 at 17:32:14
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Willempie wrote on 04/05/07 at 06:59:24:
Markovich wrote on 04/03/07 at 21:09:29:
Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.

Why? The capture on c4 is a decent option in for example the Petrosian qid, to which it can easily transpose.


Can it be we're not talking about the same line?  1. d4 e6  2. a3 d5  3. e3 and now say 3...Nf6  4. c4 or 3...c5 4. c4, I don't think an immediate or early ...dxc4 is very good for Black.  Both sides of the QGD Normal have the theme of an early a3 (or a6), since it facilitates play with the IQP.  E.g. 1. d4 d5  2. c4 e6  3. Nc3 c5  4. Nf3 Nc6  5. e3 Nf6  6. a3! after which Black's 6...dxc4 would be considered a somewhat problematic move.  Black should at least wait until White moves his KB.  A good move for Black, indeed, is 6...a6. 

But even with the black pieces, and even if White doesn't play a3, you can play ...a6, play your KB to e7 or d6, and still have a fairly reasonable game when White plays dxc5 followed by cxd5, saddling you with the IQP and loss of tempo.

The pawn on a3 facilitates ideas like Bc4-b3-c2, Qd3.  Or on occasion, Bc4-a2-b1, Qd3.  And a6 analogously with the black pieces.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #88 - 04/05/07 at 06:59:24
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Markovich wrote on 04/03/07 at 21:09:29:
Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.

Why? The capture on c4 is a decent option in for example the Petrosian qid, to which it can easily transpose.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #87 - 04/03/07 at 21:09:29
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TalJechin wrote on 03/28/07 at 18:27:24:
By the way, why should 1.d4 d5 2.Nd2!? be inferior to 2.a3,?


Well, 2. Nd2 is inferior to 2. a3, I think.  I would much sooner play the White side of a QGD, "Normal Variation" than a Colle or -- may the gods forfend! -- a Stonewall.

But 2. Nd2 does remind me of an offhand game played by Al Horowitz as White: 1. d4 Nf6  2. Nd2 e5  3. dxe5 Ng5  4. h3?? Ne3.  Having thus lost his queen, he went on to win.

Willempie: "I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4."  This is good for White, surely.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #86 - 03/29/07 at 09:36:49
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Markovich wrote on 03/28/07 at 15:38:21:
Call it what you like, but in itself, 1...e6  is not exactly an ambitious move.  The point about the Tarrasch is not that a3 is occasionally played there, but that it is entirely useful in that context; so having played 2. a3 and seen 2...d5, White should steer toward the Tarrasch Defense, Normal Variation (as Tarrasch called it).  In this way, though White's lack of ambition matches Black's, White is still White.  It's a joke, you know?  It makes fun of 1...e6.

It doesn't matter much to White whether Black plays only one of ...d5, ...c5, or both.  White's going to play d4, c4 and meet ...c5 with an immediate e3.  In such a context, 2. a3 is useful, eh?  For one thing, White can exchange on c5 and play b2-b4.

What, if White opened 1. e3 and Black played 1...d5, would anyone here just love to take White's game?  Yet in the line we're discussing, the player with his d-pawn two squares forward has the added benefit (yes, there is some benefit) of having his a-pawn on a3.  I rest my case.


I am not so sure about the QGA lines. So if black just goes e6, d5 and when c4 comes just plays dxc4.

Last week I had a blitz opponent who apparently studied the NIC article as I always get the nimzo against him and the opening went 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.a3. I was a bit annoyed as b6 allows a Pertrosian QID, so I thought I do him one better with 3..b5. Suffice to say the next game went 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.a3, which was even more annoying, so I opted for d5.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #85 - 03/29/07 at 09:30:10
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I would have thought 1 d4 e6/Nf6 2 Nd2 c5 was the most natural move.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #84 - 03/29/07 at 09:17:37
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GMEricPrie wrote on 03/29/07 at 08:51:48:
Just ask your Bc1 what he thinks of all that.


A lost tempo is a lost tempo, but a bad piece gives me something to improve.  Smiley

After all, white usually achieves e3-e4. Besides, I get the impression that you claim nothing special for white after 1.d4 d5 2.Bg5?! or 2.Bf4 - so obviously he should stay put on c1 and not complain!  Wink
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #83 - 03/29/07 at 08:51:48
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Just ask your Bc1 what he thinks of all that.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #82 - 03/28/07 at 18:27:24
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Markovich wrote on 03/28/07 at 15:11:15:
MNb wrote on 03/28/07 at 02:40:05:
Does the website also tell, how White prevents ...e5 after 6...d6 (iso d5) 7.e4 fxe4 8.Nxe4 Nc6 9.Bd3 h6 ?


But White must be White in that line, eh, since Black will have taken two tempi to get his pawn to e5, while white will have spent a tempo uselessly (perhaps) on a3?  I mean, you don't see many Bird's where White goes e2-e3 and soon e3-e4.


Well, we don't see many Bird's period. But iirc Taylor's mainline for white is something like 1.f4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 g6 4.Be2 Bg7 5.0-0 0-0 6.d3 c5 7.Nc3 Nc6 8.e4 etc



By the way, why should 1.d4 d5 2.Nd2!? be inferior to 2.a3,?

As far as I understand, the critical defence is the same i.e. Nf6+Bf5 which is equal in both cases, white can play c4 and recapture with the knight for one thing.

But if black plays something else, then 2.Nd2 is a more useful move than a3 imo, provided white goes for a Colle or Stonewall set-up instead of a QG reversed.

Besides, after 2...c6 he can still play 3.e4 with a mainline, and 2...Bg4 can probably still be met by 3.f3! as in the QG reversed.

and 1.d4 e6 2.Nd2 also looks better than a3, as 2...d5 gives him a choice between 3.e4 or 3.Nf3 or 3.e3 and 2...f5 3.e4 fxe4 4.Nxe4 is a better Staunton than the one you get after 1.d4 f5!

and finally, if you don't like the Indians then 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nd2 will usually result in 2...d5 from black. (At least according to my blitz tests on the net a while ago. I suppose they don't like 2...d6 3.e4 g6 4.Bd3 - though why I dunno)

So, 1.d4+2.Nd2 against almost everything seems a solid opening for lazy white players who like the Colle... Or is there a drawback?
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #81 - 03/28/07 at 15:38:21
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Uberdecker wrote on 02/27/07 at 17:34:55:
Yes, but if Black is willing to play an inferior Benoni (i.e. without c4), he might as well go for 1.d4 c5 immediately.

I've had my fair share of useless confrontations on this thread, and certainly don't want part of any more, but it's a bit odd to call 1. d4 e6 a passive move, no ? And no one has claimed 2. a3 to be unplayable, but the fact that White sometimes moves his a-pawn in the Tarrasch does not constitute sufficient justification (whether or not it comes from elsewhere. Please note this is not an attack on Eric or his creation).  Black can play ...c5 without ...d5 and vice-versa. 


Call it what you like, but in itself, 1...e6  is not exactly an ambitious move.  The point about the Tarrasch is not that a3 is occasionally played there, but that it is entirely useful in that context; so having played 2. a3 and seen 2...d5, White should steer toward the Tarrasch Defense, Normal Variation (as Tarrasch called it).  In this way, though White's lack of ambition matches Black's, White is still White.  It's a joke, you know?  It makes fun of 1...e6.

It doesn't matter much to White whether Black plays only one of ...d5, ...c5, or both.  White's going to play d4, c4 and meet ...c5 with an immediate e3.  In such a context, 2. a3 is useful, eh?  For one thing, White can exchange on c5 and play b2-b4.

What, if White opened 1. e3 and Black played 1...d5, would anyone here just love to take White's game?  Yet in the line we're discussing, the player with his d-pawn two squares forward has the added benefit (yes, there is some benefit) of having his a-pawn on a3.  I rest my case.

  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #80 - 03/28/07 at 15:11:15
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MNb wrote on 03/28/07 at 02:40:05:
Does the website also tell, how White prevents ...e5 after 6...d6 (iso d5) 7.e4 fxe4 8.Nxe4 Nc6 9.Bd3 h6 ?


But White must be White in that line, eh, since Black will have taken two tempi to get his pawn to e5, while white will have spent a tempo uselessly (perhaps) on a3?  I mean, you don't see many Bird's where White goes e2-e3 and soon e3-e4.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #79 - 03/28/07 at 02:40:05
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Does the website also tell, how White prevents ...e5 after 6...d6 (iso d5) 7.e4 fxe4 8.Nxe4 Nc6 9.Bd3 h6 ?
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #78 - 03/27/07 at 11:20:02
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Just a quote picked from the New In Chess website :

"B4) 2...f5 3.c4 Nf6 4.Nc3, Be7?! (Black should really transpose to the English Defence
with 4...b6 5.Nf3 Bb7) 5.Qc2! (opening the attack on the light squares without having to fear a
check on b4; on 5. Nf3, Ne4!? is an interesting possibility) -diagram inserted-
5...0-0 6.Nf3 d5 (e2-e4 was coming) 7.Bf4, with a ‘Trashcan-Stonewall’ with White’s bishop outside the pawn chain. "

Can't comment upon it : have not run into 2...f5 yet.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #77 - 03/24/07 at 06:48:54
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 MNb makes an excellent point, 1.d4 e6 2.a3 f5. How useful is the move 2.a3 against the Stonewall or Classical Dutch? In his book PLAY THE CLASSICAL DUTCH, Simon Williams says that if Black can get in e6-e5 without suffering some liability, Black has at least equality. And the move 2.a3 does nothing to secure the e5-square.
 
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #76 - 03/03/07 at 14:53:19
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Quote:
Hello everyone,
What about the Barry attack? Is it a viable option to the QG? Can it be played against 1. d4 d5? Or is only good against 1. d4 Nf6?


The Barry usually arises after 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 g6 3.Nc3 d5 4.Bf4. So after 1.d4 d5 black must fianketto with ...g6 at move 2 or 3, which is quite uncommon. But it might of course occur after 2.Nf3, 2.Bf4 or 2.Nc3 ...
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #75 - 03/02/07 at 17:10:12
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Hello everyone,
What about the Barry attack? Is it a viable option to the QG? Can it be played against 1. d4 d5? Or is only good against 1. d4 Nf6?
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #74 - 02/27/07 at 20:44:32
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Or 1.d4 e6 2.a3 f5, when White's 2nd has severely restricted his/her own options.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #73 - 02/27/07 at 17:34:55
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Yes, but if Black is willing to play an inferior Benoni (i.e. without c4), he might as well go for 1.d4 c5 immediately.

I've had my fair share of useless confrontations on this thread, and certainly don't want part of any more, but it's a bit odd to call 1. d4 e6 a passive move, no ? And no one has claimed 2. a3 to be unplayable, but the fact that White sometimes moves his a-pawn in the Tarrasch does not constitute sufficient justification (whether or not it comes from elsewhere. Please note this is not an attack on Eric or his creation).  Black can play ...c5 without ...d5 and vice-versa.  
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #72 - 02/27/07 at 17:22:10
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Markovich wrote on 02/27/07 at 17:00:06:
lnn2 wrote on 06/20/06 at 13:03:44:
http://www.newinchess.com/Archives/SurveysList.aspx?&OpeningID=22

--> link on the right "A White Chameleon"

I thought his idea of 1. d4 e6 2. a3 was actually quite useful!


What makes 2. a3 a playable move is that 1...e6 is such a passive one.  We arrived at a similar conclusion concerning 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. a3, aiming for a Normal Tarrasch.  When the two players strive to excel each other in unambitiousness, what can you do?  I doubt if I'd buy a book devoted to the theory of this.

I suspect that the "perfect" reply to 1. d4 e6 is 2. e4, but I play d4 exclusively, and I can't afford to have reams of French variations in my repertoire.  By the same token, it can always be said of 1...e6 that Black must be willing to risk the French (or the, what is it called? Nimzo-Larsen?).  One of these days when faced with 1...e6, I declare I am just going to play 2. e4 and try to find good moves.


I think you mean the Barcza(-Larsen) or Franco-Benoni or Franco-Sicilian ...well, in any case not the Franco-American, that was a brand of canned spaghetti from the 1970s  :-D
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #71 - 02/27/07 at 17:00:06
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lnn2 wrote on 06/20/06 at 13:03:44:
http://www.newinchess.com/Archives/SurveysList.aspx?&OpeningID=22

--> link on the right "A White Chameleon"

I thought his idea of 1. d4 e6 2. a3 was actually quite useful!


What makes 2. a3 a playable move is that 1...e6 is such a passive one.  We arrived at a similar conclusion concerning 1. d4 Nf6  2. c4 e6  3. a3, aiming for a Normal Tarrasch.  When the two players strive to excel each other in unambitiousness, what can you do?  I doubt if I'd buy a book devoted to the theory of this.

I suspect that the "perfect" reply to 1. d4 e6 is 2. e4, but I play d4 exclusively, and I can't afford to have reams of French variations in my repertoire.  By the same token, it can always be said of 1...e6 that Black must be willing to risk the French (or the, what is it called? Nimzo-Larsen?).  One of these days when faced with 1...e6, I declare I am just going to play 2. e4 and try to find good moves.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #70 - 02/27/07 at 10:11:00
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I meant 1. d4, Nf6 2. Nf3, e6 3. g3 (Bg5 is not obligatory for all  I know).
A problem with this poll is that it mixes anti-indians and double d-pawn-openings...
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #69 - 02/26/07 at 15:52:48
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nyoke wrote on 02/26/07 at 10:54:39:
Why is 3. g3 (I don't know what to call it ) not included in this list ?


You mean 2. g3 don't you?  It's chess, but White's problem there is that the black QB just comes out.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #68 - 02/26/07 at 10:54:39
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Why is 3. g3 (I don't know what to call it ) not included in this list ?
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #67 - 11/18/06 at 08:43:11
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1.d4 d5 2.a3 a6! =+
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #66 - 10/05/06 at 09:59:33
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Öng bång väng blang.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #65 - 10/05/06 at 09:28:25
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Quote:
1.d4 d5 2.Ff4 Cf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Cc6 5.Cd2 Ff5 6.Cgf3 et maintenant, plutôt Db6 ou e6?  

Ah oui  Smiley

So I would say it is simpler and more complicated at the same time, basically a matter of taste :

-6...Qb6 7.Qb3 c4 8.Qxb6 axb6 9.a3 b5 10.Rc1 and White has managed to evacuate the a file thanks to the extra-tempo thus freezing a slightly favourable structure on the queenside. However there is 10...Nh5!? now, and both camps have to evaluate correctly the complications resulting from 11.Be5! f6 12.Bc7 e5! 13.h3!

-6...e6 7.Qb3 (7.Be2 Be7 8.0-0 is exactly a Prié reversed without the move a6; thanks por the thrown line Arkhein Smiley) 7...Qd7!? ( 7...Qc8 is quieter though less ambitious) 8.Ne5 Nxe5 9.dxe5 c4 10.Nxc4! dxc4 11.Bxc4 0-0-0 12.exf6 Qd2+ 13.Kf1 gxf6 with compensations.

I have also checked 5.Qb3 and it is not a Novelty, since played in 2002 by London specialist Schlindwein who obtained a great position with it.

I am aware as well I have mentionned the name of GM rainer Knaak without giving the source.
It is because we have come to the same conclusion about the London, published in the last Chessbase Magazine 113 as for his.
Through a different move order though for he recommends 2...c5 ( and I 2...Nf6) and is not scared by 3.e4 on the basis of Winants-Adly Olm Turin 2006. However, I am persuaded the last word for White has not been said there...
His point is the gambit Novelty 3.e3 Nc6 4.c3 Qb6 5.Qb3 c4 6.Qc2 e5! ( instead of the messy 6...Bf5 7.Qxf5 Qxb2 8.Qxd5 Qxa1 9.Qb5) 7.dxe5 Bf5 8.Qc1 g5!    

 
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #64 - 10/04/06 at 15:15:58
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Merci Eric pour tes réponses, en fait saches que je suis francophone (je viens de Suisse, mais maintenant je vis en Belgique), mais que 95% de mes messages sont en anglais ici pour me faire comprendre par tout le monde Smiley

En fait il me semble que tu parles surtout du systeme de londres contre 1.d4 d5, mais j'ai pas vu ou tu en parlais sur 1.d4 Cf6, et moi je joue 1..Cf6, mais après 2.Ff4 il m'est arrivé de vouloir jouer 2..d5 juste pour transposer dans "tes" idées, quitte à perdre un peu de flexibilité (..Cf6 n'étant pas forcément joué de suite). Mais en même temps, 1.d4 Cf6 2.Ff4 ou 2.Cf3 suivi de Ff4 permet aux noirs de jouer sans d5, avec une sorte de Reti reversée, ou juste c5, ou un setup à la grünfeld, ou est-indienne, tout semble possible et pourrait être une simple question de goût je suppose.

A la prochaine Grand Maitre Eric.

[Edit]

Après avoir bien relu ta réponse, je crois que tu as confondu avec une ligne voisine, car tu mentionne du Ca3, alors que les Blancs ont déjà joué Cbd2. Je reformule ma question ici en simple, au cas ou.

1.d4 d5 2.Ff4 Cf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Cc6 5.Cd2 Ff5 6.Cgf3 et maintenant, plutôt Db6 ou e6?
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #63 - 10/04/06 at 11:14:11
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Le maître de céans de vient-il pas de nous donner sa bénédiction pour continuer en français ?! Smiley

Il faut bien sûr préférer 5...Db6 qui se voit accorder un point d'exclamation dans le livre de  Johnsen/Kovacevic avec pour suite critique :
6.Db3
(6.Dc2 Fg4! Miles-Fressinet 6...Ff5!? 7.dxc5 Fxc2 8.cxb6 axb6 9.Ca3 Txa3 10.bxa3 e6 pas clair; 6.Ca3 a6! 7.Db3 Da5 8.dxc5 e6= une autre partie de Miles)
6...c4 7.Dc2
J'ai consacré une update à 7.Dxb6 axb6 8.Ca3. Le livre explique pourquoi ils préfèrent le retrait de la Dame :
"White to some extent threatens 9.Nb5, but Black has many ways to parry that. One may suspect that 8...Rxa3 and 9...e5 are not quite correct. ( Practice suggests the contrary on 8...Rxa3) It also seems likely that White may achieve something against 8...Na7 (Knaak's choice) and 9...Ne4. However, both 8...e6 (?! I suppose the author meant 8...Bf5 9.Nh4 Bd7 10.Nf3 e6) and 8...Ra5 (my main recommendation) have proved fully satisfactory in practice play. Play often becomes complicated with White trying to create confusion in the black camp with his minor pieces. However, even if White should succeed in picking up the b6-pawn, his knight and bishop often end up in danger of being trapped or shut out of play. We therefore will not go into any detail on this."
7...Bf5(!) 8.Qc1 e6 9.Nbd2 Qd8 10.b3 b5 11.a4 a6 12.Be2 Be7
"White has not been able to prove anything here" based on Kharlov-Sadler Bern 96.

For me this is typically a dangerous equality for White, an easily obtained equality from where White can be outplayed by the opponent.
I prefer to be on that side of equality when I play the Prie for instance, or the Lemberger as Black against the BDG, for I completely agree with what you say, Arkhein, about its accepted version.

That is why the book advocates 5.Nd2 instead of 5.Nf3.
As for me, I see the radical Novelty 5.Qb3!? preventing Black's Queen's bishop to move out of the pawn chain as the only solution. Unfortunately the complications resulting from 1.d4 d5 2.Nf4 c5!? ( instead of 2...Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nd2) 3.e4! Nc6! are not much of my taste, so much to have dissuaded me from playing the London against 1...d5. But of course, if my opponent goes 2.Nf3 e6, I willingly play 3.Bf4 and not 3.a3!  

To loop the loop with that order of move, 3...c5 4.c3 Nc6 5.e3 transposing in your 5...e6 instead 5...Qb6(!) only aims at neutralizing the London bishop at the price of shuting in the queen bishop.
Then 6.Nbd2 Bd6 7.Bxd6 Qxd6, transposing into well known positions with the reversed colours, is just fine for White because it shall not be so easy for Black to liberate his play with a further e6-e5. Either after 8.Bb5 or 8.a3 ( exactly Bacrot-Svildler Linares 2006 with the reversed colour and an extra-tempo for White) intending b2-b4 or a combination of both; to finish on an ironical touch about the most innocent movement of the White's a-pawn Smiley    
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #62 - 10/04/06 at 07:05:23
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And just as I was being so conciliatory... If I may be so bold ,I suggest you read the posts in this thread, Scholar, and then decide who, in this particular instance, was insulting and who was insulted. I had asked the GM a question relating to nothing but chess and until his last post I had received nothing but off-topic abuse in reply.
I accept your definition of myself as "mullish" (although Eric's etymological source was probably "mule") and have nothing to retort.
Still outraged by my behavior??

                                                    Regards,
                                                        UD
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #61 - 10/04/06 at 05:02:45
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1150663394/45#59 date=1159911168]
P.S. I'd be grateful if you would share the meaning of your term "mullish"[/quote]

I assume that he's invented an adjective based on the intransitive verb "to mull" as in, say, mulled wine.  The word was originally used to describe wine that had gone bad and then was revived in order to be made drinkable by adding spices and sugar and then serving heated.  I imagine that some contributors imagine that you have soured and consequently become over-spiced and heated in an effort to compensate...

Seriously, Uberdeker, I would prefer if you would refrain from endless gratuitous attacks.  Actually, I'd prefer you didn't insult other forum members altogether, but if you must, at least clothe your [i]ad hominems[/i] with some chess.  Otherwise, it grows tiresome for the rest of us.

As for me, I shall now fade away...if you really feel the need to respond to this post, please start a new thread in the [b]Chit Chat[/b] section entitled "Flame Wars Involving Uberdeker."
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #60 - 10/03/06 at 23:09:45
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Interesting to see English used occasionally on this thread, and some discussion of chess openings, too! Smiley
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #59 - 10/03/06 at 21:32:48
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Dear Eric,

  I was looking forward to another demented lecture on "Prié chess" written in the Prié-language.
  Instead, I must commend you on your newly-found honesty. Not only that, but your prose has almost become intelligeable! I completely agree with everything you wrote in your last post. I am a bit perplexed that it took you so long to admit these things, but better late than never...
Thank you for "putting me in my place".

                                                          Regards,
                                                                UD

P.S. I'd be grateful if you would share the meaning of your term "mullish"
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #58 - 10/03/06 at 18:26:57
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Thanks!

Both 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.a3 c6 4.Bf4 intending 4...Bf5 (4...Qb6?! 5.Qc1) 5.e3 e6 6.c4
and 1.d4 e6 2.a3 Nf6 3.Nf3 ( 3.c4 is playable but I prefer to play 3.Nf3 Now imagine you are Black and somebody plays 1.Nf3 d5 2.e3 against you casually replying 2...Nf6 wouldn't you smile ? Like the way I do at our mullish friend ?  Smiley  3...b6 4.Bg5 fully comply with my views.

As well as 3...c5 4.c3 b6 5.Bg5 although I tend to privilege the London approach with Bf4 these days like 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.a3 e6 4.Bf4.
Black equalizes because of the tempo lost ?! It is not clear because I almost always play a3 later in the Nimzo London 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.Bf4 to avoid the manoeuvre Nf6-d5-b4 with my bishop on d3.
May it be so, no problem I am fond of that equality and I know can grind out an edge from there !

Contrarily to part one selected as a free sampler of NIC 78, you have to get the book NIC 79 to access part 2 dealing with 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.a3 c6...

Such millstones round your neck like our dear contradictor pullulates on Chess forums and that is why GMs show reluctance to attend these places.
They give you "regards" "respect" but because they are educated they just want to pit themselves against you, as a symbol of mind quintessence, to make them shine. Since they obviously cannot cope on the ground of chess, they try to shift the battlefield to other areas like language in our case.
I have a gift to spot those hypocrits...on the spot and put them in their place without further ado.
I also have to confess I virtually love to fight  Smiley  

   
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #57 - 10/03/06 at 16:55:57
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Eric Prié je profite de te poser une question ici, légèrement hors sujet mais dont tu as déjà parlé dans ce topic. Dans un de tes articles sur le système de Londres, tu proposes 1.d4 d5 2.Ff4 Cf6 3.e3 c5 4.c3 Cc6 5.Cd2 Ff5, et la tu dis:

"and on 6.Qb3 Qd7 which "might be the toughest nut to crack" according to the book, and which should therefore have been worth more than a quarter of a page of sometimes curious analysis."

ou ceci sur ce topic:

"I now play the London 3.Bf4 on the KID 2...g6 and the Nimzo 2...e6 and I am very happy with it.
I would like to play it on 1.d4 d5 as well but it is alas impossible : 
2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5! 4.e3 Nc6 5.c3 Qb6 6.Qb3 c4 7.Qc2 Bf5!
or 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5! 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nd2 Bf5 6.Qb3 Qd7! 7.Nf3 c4 and so on"

Mais 6.Cgf3 est une alternative courante et logique, et la je me demande quel est le plus précis pour les Noirs: 6..Db6!? ou 6..e6? Comment comparerais-tu ces 2 alternatives et lequel tu préconiserais pour les Noirs? Merci pour ta future réponse.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #56 - 10/03/06 at 15:34:22
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It is usually best to let maniacal ravings go unanswered, but since our GM friend has insisted in an other thread on being confronted once again with his own incoherence, here are just a couple of points :

[quote author=GMEricPrie link=1150663394/15#23 date=1151054478]In the structure d4-d5, if you find me a way to play a London or Torre when Black's queen bishop is alive ie when Black has not played the suiting my purpose e7-e6 in his first two moves, I shamelessly drop the Prié on the spot![/quote]

If we transcribe this into proper English, we can assume that Eric plays 1. d4 d5 ; 2. a3 and 1. d4 e6 ; 2. a3 in the hope of reaching positions akin to the following Torre line : 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. Bg5 d5 and he is willing to sacrifice a tempo to this end.
But 1. d4 d5 ; 2. a3 Ktf6 ; 3. Ktf3 c6 and 1. d4 e6 ; 2. a3 Ktf6 (or 2. ...c5 ; 3. c3 Ktf6 ; 4. Ktf3 b6) ; 3. Ktf3 b6 do not comply to Eric's wishes either.
Only the lines 1. d4 d5 ; 2. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 3. Bg5 Kte4 ; 4. Bf4 c5 ; 5. c3 Qb6 and 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. Bg5 c5 ; 4. c3 Qb6 are avoided. Is this worth the tempo sac? A subjective question OTB, I suppose, but not very relevant in a theoretical sense. White plays theory a tempo down. Hardly the "inauguration of a new concept of the opening" as the exponent has so pompously claimed.

[quote author=GMEricPrie link=1150663394/30#33 date=1151332291]
1.d4 e6 2.a3 Nf6 3.c4 is OK for White.[/quote]

After 3. ...c5 ; 4. Ktf3 cd ; 5. Ktxd4 in addition to transposing to the 5. c4 Kan sideline I mentionned in reply #28, Black can implement the pawn-grab theme with 5. ...Ktc6 ; 6. Ktc3 Qc7 ; 7. e4 Ktxe4. This is analogous to a sideline of the "Accelerated Paulsen" [1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 Ktc6 ; 3. d4 cd ; 4. Ktxd4 Qc7 5. c4 (4. ...Ktdb5 is a much better path to the Maroczy) ; 5. ...Ktxe4] with a3 and ..e6 thrown in. The difference favours Black of course.

  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #55 - 08/24/06 at 19:06:44
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For Black, the best is for White to play 2.e4!? and Black to play 2...e6... Cheesy

For White, the best is 2.d4-d2 and 3.e2-e4.   Sure, White will have lost a couple of moves, but it's just the opening...

<BIG cheesy grin>
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #54 - 08/16/06 at 23:35:57
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All these Grandmasters reach the Colle-Zukertort by transposition from the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 (My opponent shuts in his queen bishop so I can do the same) 3...d5.

Aha!  That makes sense.  Which explains why - as I just discovered a moment ago - Richard Palliser advocates exactly that treatment of the Slav in his book "Play 1d4!"

Thanks for the explanation GM Prei.  NOw, where can I find a discussion of your famous "Prei Variation" here on the site?  I'm a subscriber, so just point me in the right direction .....
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #53 - 08/14/06 at 13:09:19
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Viceroy wrote on 08/11/06 at 14:07:15:
"Veni, vidi, vici" is properly pronounced not "vainy, veedy, veechy" as by the bishops, but "wainy, weedy, weeky" as Caesar would actually have said it.

How can you possibly know that? Is there any proof that the letter v was pronounced [w] in Roman times?

Sorry, really, really off topic I know.

Smyslov, I could post in Chinese but words like Sveshnikov and Kalashnikov are a real pain to translate Roll Eyes


A lot of writing has survived from classical times and some of it has to do with the pronunciation, and mis-pronunciation, of words.  The following is quoted from askOxford.com:

"Well, pronunciation and history come together in a story told by Cicero which demonstrates that Latin v was pronounced like u in the first century BC. When the Roman politician and general Crassus was setting out on the ill-fated expedition against the Parthians in which he and his army were to be annihilated at Carrhae (53 BC), a seller of Caunean figs was crying out 'Cauneas!' Cicero observes that it would have been a good thing for Crassus if he had heeded the omen, i.e. 'Cave ne eas!' (= beware of going). This story makes no sense unless we presume that the v of cave was similar in sound to the u of Cauneas."

See also this source, which is very ample on this subject:

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext05/8rlat10.txt
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #52 - 08/11/06 at 14:07:15
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"Veni, vidi, vici" is properly pronounced not "vainy, veedy, veechy" as by the bishops, but "wainy, weedy, weeky" as Caesar would actually have said it.

How can you possibly know that? Is there any proof that the letter v was pronounced [w] in Roman times?

Sorry, really, really off topic I know.

Smyslov, I could post in Chinese but words like Sveshnikov and Kalashnikov are a real pain to translate Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: 08/11/06 at 15:19:35 by Viceroy »  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #51 - 08/11/06 at 11:58:11
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Markovich wrote on 08/10/06 at 13:49:28:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/26/06 at 05:01:14:
Personally, I would love to see posts in languages other than English, at least occasionally.


Idem in me, amice in ludo scaccorum!  Sed optimum in hoc sito sit semper latine loqui, quod haec est lingua proxissima universalis, atque quod nemo nativam hanc linguam habet.   

Igitur latine dico: miror quod plurimi suffragii pro ratione 'Veressov' lati fuerunt.  Illam rationem pro impotente habeo, et opinor, negri post 3...c5 praestant.      



"The same goes for me, chessfriend.  But it might be best always to speak Latin on this site, since it's the most universal language and one that no one speaks natively."

"So in Latin I say: I marvel that so many votes were cast for the Veressov system.  I consider that system weak, and I think the black pieces are outstanding after 3...c5."

There was a grammatical error in my post as quoted by Smyslov Fan, which I've since corrected.  Contrary to his supposition, my interest in Latin stems from no connection to the Catholic Church (credo in nullum deum, et sperno pontifices episcopesque), but from a longstanding interest in classical history and literature.  "Veni, vidi, vici" is properly pronounced not "vainy, veedy, veechy" as by the bishops, but "wainy, weedy, weeky" as Caesar would actually have said it.

All marvelously offtopic and rather obnoxiously self-indulgent, I know.  Sorry.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #50 - 08/11/06 at 05:15:24
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    Il n'ya pas de sport plus violent que les échecs!
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #49 - 08/11/06 at 04:52:20
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Markovich wrote on 08/10/06 at 13:49:28:
Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/26/06 at 05:01:14:
Personally, I would love to see posts in languages other than English, at least occasionally.


Idem in me, amice in ludo scaccorum!  Sed optimum in hoc sito sit semper latine loqui, quod haec est lingua proxissima universalis, atque quod nemo nativam hanc linguam habet.  

Igitur latine dico: miror quod plurimos suffragios pro ratione 'Veressov' lati fuerunt.  Illam rationem pro impotente habeo, et opinor, negri post 3...c5 praestant.      



Well, I was thinking of "living" languages, Markovich, but thanks for the reminder that there are still people around who lived through Vatican II!
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #48 - 08/11/06 at 01:57:39
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Sa en skrifi?
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #47 - 08/10/06 at 13:49:28
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 06/26/06 at 05:01:14:
Personally, I would love to see posts in languages other than English, at least occasionally.


Idem in me, amice in ludo scaccorum!  Sed optimum in hoc sito sit semper latine loqui, quod haec est lingua proxissima universalis, atque quod nemo nativam hanc linguam habet.   

Igitur latine dico: miror quod plurimi suffragii pro ratione 'Veressov' lati fuerunt.  Illam rationem pro impotente habeo, et opinor, negri post 3...c5 praestant.      
« Last Edit: 08/11/06 at 10:37:38 by Markovich »  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #46 - 08/10/06 at 09:38:12
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All these Grandmasters reach the Colle-Zukertort by transposition from the move order 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3 e6 3.e3 (My opponent shuts in his queen bishop so I can do the same) 3...d5.

I have nothing against the Colle 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.e3 ( I even voted for it! ) except that it transposes by force in the QG complex in the form of reaching conveniently ( ie having avoided the QGA) a Slow Slav after 3...c6 (3...Bf5 4.Bd3!? Bxd3 5.cxd3; 3...Bg4 4.h3!? forcing Bxf3) 4.c4 and in my case 4...Bg4 rather than 4...Bf5.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #45 - 08/09/06 at 20:30:46
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Hello GM Prei:

OK, let me confess right off the bat I'm a patzer.  But regardless, I'm a chess obsessive (and subscriber to your site here) and play every day.  Earlier on in this thread, you wrote that there is no alternative to the QGD - at least, if one wants to play for a maximum advantage out of the opening.  What, then, do you make of the fact that GMs Yusopov (Jussupow in Russian I think), Polgar, and Yermolinsky are quite happy to play the Colle-Zuckertort (probably better tagged the Rubinstein Attack since neither Colle or Zuckertort ever really played that line but Rubinstein did)?  One might of course respond that Polgar and Yermolinsky play it only every once in a while, but it's Yusupov's standard weapon, is it not?

Just curious ....
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #44 - 06/29/06 at 17:18:54
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Denigrating what you do not understand, "do a GrandMaster" is a national sport for the thinking in french people, it must be due to the language Smiley

Just above, I did warn you about trolling, didn't I?! Do not pay attention.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #43 - 06/29/06 at 11:18:46
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Strange. I come to tell you that Uberdeker does not need anyone to explain the painfully obvious (how d4 d5 a3 is directed against c5) to him, because he surely sees that in the blink of an eye. It certainly does not take 20 years of experience, and these c5-c4 with a free Bf5 against Qb3 are well-known. Still you repeat once again all your "findings" to me. Strange.

The only obscure phrase of yours, in this "Prie-chess" re-inventing the prophylactic wheel, was "if you find me a way to play a London or Torre when Black's queen bishop is alive ie when Black has not played the suiting my purpose e7-e6 in his first two moves, I shamelessly drop the Prié on the spot!" ; but if you had instead written "if you find me a way to play a London or Torre when Black's queen bishop is NOT alive ie when Black HAS PLAYED the suiting my purpose e7-e6 in his first two moves, I shamelessly drop the Prié on the spot!", everyone would have gotten it. Uberdeker didn't correct by himself, probably because he thought you'd meant something really original.

"I don’t care about “playing beautiful”, any so-called "Morphy's spirit" bullshit, but I am proud to have the most compact chess repertoire amongst the grandmasters."

Well, we all have something which make us proud...

« Last Edit: 06/29/06 at 13:05:00 by Sugartort »  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #42 - 06/29/06 at 08:17:45
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I regret I cannot tell you what happens on 2…c5 3.dxc5 e6 It is a secret because if I expect someone to play 2…c5 I will play 2.a3 when on the neo-version of the Prie 2.Nf3 Nf3 3.a3 c5 I can only transpose into an exchange Slav after 4.c3 cxd4 5.cxd4 which also suits me by the way.
Alternatively, QGA fans connoisseurs can take on c5 and play c2-c4 or play a reverse Chigorin 2…c5 3.Nc3!? with the extra-move a2-a3 I imagine useful.

1.d4 d5 2.a3 g6 makes imperceptible difference compared to 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.a3 g6 White continues 3.Bf4 Bg7 4.e3 c5 5.c3 .
a3 may prove useful if Black wants to attack on the queenside with c5-c4, b7-b5 or exchange on d4 but the most important is that “Black’s dark squared bishop hits the granite of the d4 pawn".

At the day of today, now counting only the FIDE games, I have 16 wins 9 draws on a total of 25 games against a 2314 average with the Prié for a 2577 performance I could never have dreamt of, except with Black Smiley with the material presented in the poll!
At my age, it is too late to correct my most severe defects. So, to stay competitive and as efficient as possible I do as everyone should do : optimize the output of my strengths and minimize the handicap of my weaknesses.
I don’t care about “playing beautiful”, any so-called "Morphy's spirit" bullshit, but I am proud to have the most compact chess repertoire amongst the grandmasters.
That is why only players with a good knowledge of the a6 Slav can make an enhanced use of my opening I make publicity about only when kindly asked to.

And yes! As keano pertinently points out I always take back towards the centre in the Torre-London Nimzo to keep the vital f4 under control.
And always play a2-a3 to avoid the manoeuvre Nf6-d5-b4 hitting my Bd3...
Some examples straight from the horse’s file  Smiley
 
Prie,E (2429) - Taylor,P (2289)
4NCL Telford (3), 17.01.2004
1.d4 Cf6 2.Fg5 e6 3.Cd2 h6 4.Fh4 c5 5.e3 Cc6 6.c3 b6 7.Cgf3 Fe7 8.a3 Fb7 9.Fd3 0–0 10.De2 cxd4 11.cxd4 Ch5 12.Fg3 d6 13.Tc1 Dd7 14.0–0 Cxg3 15.hxg3 Tfc8 16.g4 Tc7 17.Ce4 Tac8 18.Tcd1 Cb8 19.Cc3 a6 20.d5 De8 21.Fb1 e5 22.g3 Cd7 23.Rg2 Cf6 24.Th1 Fd8 25.g5 hxg5 26.Cxg5 Cxd5 27.Fh7+ Rf8 28.Fe4 Cf6 29.Fxb7 Txb7 30.Th8+ Cg8 31.Ch7+ Re7 32.Dg4 Txc3 33.bxc3 Dc6+ 34.Rg1 Ch6 35.Dg5+ f6 36.Dxg7+ Cf7 37.Dxf6+ Rd7 38.Dxf7+ Rc8 39.De6+ Td7 40.Cf8 1–0

Prie,E (2467) - Braun,P (2223) [A47]
RPF liga1 Bad Kreuznach (8.1), 12.03.2005
[Prié,Eric]
1.d4 Cf6 2261 FIDE 2.Cf3 e6 3.Ff4 b6 4.e3 Fb7 5.h3 c5 6.c3 cxd4 7.cxd4 Fe7 8.a3 0–0 9.Cc3 d6 10.Fd3 Cbd7 11.0–0 Te8 12.e4 Cf8 13.Te1 a6 14.Dd2 b5 15.Tad1 Tc8 16.Fh2 Db6 17.e5 Cd5 18.Ce4 dxe5 19.dxe5 b4 [19...Cg6 20.b4 (20.Cd6 Cxe5 21.Cxe8 Cxf3+ 22.gxf3 Txe8 23.Fe5) 20...Ted8 21.Cd6 Cxe5 22.Cxc8] 20.Cd6 Fxd6 21.exd6 Ted8 22.Ce5 Cd7 23.Cxd7 [23.Fxh7+ Rxh7 24.Cxf7 Tf8 25.Cg5+ Rg8 26.Cxe6 Tf6÷] 23...Txd7 24.Tc1 Tdd8 25.Fc4 a5 26.Fe5 h6 27.Dd3 f6 [27...Ce7 28.Fxe6 fxe6 29.dxe7 Txd3 30.Txc8+ Fxc8 31.e8D+ Rh7 32.Dxc8] 28.Fxf6 Cxf6 [28...Txc4 29.Fxd8 Txc1 30.Fxb6 Txe1+ 31.Rh2 Cxb6 32.Db5] 29.Fxe6+ Rh8 30.Fxc8 Fxc8 31.Te7 Cg8 32.Dg6 Dd4 33.Te8! [33.Tcc7 Ff5 34.Dxf5 Dd1+ 35.Rh2 Dxd6+ 36.De5 Cxe7 37.Txe7 Dxe5+ 38.Txe5 Td2=] 33...Txe8 34.Dxe8 Fb7 [34...Ff5 35.g4! (35.axb4 axb4 (35...Dxd6 36.bxa5 Dd2 37.Tc5 Dxb2 38.De5) 36.Df8 (36.Tc6 Dd1+ 37.Rh2 Dd5 38.Tb6 Fe6 39.Db5 Dd4 40.Dxb4 Fc4 41.d7 Df4+ 42.Rg1 Dc1+ 43.Rh2 Df4+) 36...Dxb2 37.Te1 (37.Tc7 Dd4 38.g4 Fe6 39.Te7 Fd5 40.d7 Dd1+ 41.Rh2 Dh1+ 42.Rg3 Dg2+ 43.Rh4 g5+ 44.Rh5 Dxh3+ 45.Rg6 Dd3+ 46.Rh5 Dh3+ 47.Rg6) 37...Dd2 38.Te8 Dd5) 35...Dxb2 (35...Dxd6 36.gxf5 bxa3 37.bxa3 Dxa3 38.Tc8 Db3 39.De6 Dxe6 40.fxe6 Rh7 41.Ta8) 36.Te1 Fd3 (36...bxa3 37.gxf5 a2 38.d7 a1D 39.Txa1 Dxa1+ 40.Rg2) 37.d7 Fb5 38.d8D Fxe8 39.Txe8 Dc1+ 40.Rh2 Df4+ 41.Rg2 Dc4 42.axb4 axb4 43.Da8 b3 44.Tb8 Rh7 45.Df3] 35.d7 Dd5 36.f3 Dd4+ 37.Rh1 Dd2 38.Tg1 Fc6 39.d8D Fxe8 40.Dxd2 Brettmeister de Rheinland-Pfalz au 2ème échiquier avec 5,5 sur 6 contre une moyenne à 2199 = Perf DWZ à 2610. Cette compétition de 4ème division, sans arbitre obligatoire, ne compte malheureusement pas pour le Elo FIDE.  1–0

Prie,E (2475) - Rayner,F (2205)
XXIX Open Donostia San Sebastian (2.7), 09.04.2006
[Prié,Eric]
1.d4 Cf6 2.Cf3 e6 3.Ff4 b6 4.e3 Fb7 5.h3 Fe7 6.Cbd2 0–0 7.Fd3 c5 8.c3 Cc6 9.a3 d6 10.De2 Dd7 [10...cxd4 11.cxd4 e5 12.dxe5 dxe5 13.Cxe5 Fd6 14.Cxc6 Fxc6 15.Fg5 h6 16.Fe4 Fxe4 17.Fxf6 De8 18.Fc3 Fc6 19.Dg4] 11.Td1 Tad8 12.Fb5 Dc8 [12...Cd5 13.Fh2 Cc7 14.Fd3 e5 15.dxc5 dxc5 16.Cc4 De6 17.e4 Txd3 18.Dxd3 Td8 19.De2 Txd1+ 20.Rxd1 Fa6 21.b3 b5 22.Ccxe5 b4 23.c4 bxa3 24.Cxc6 Dxc6 25.Rc1] 13.0–0 Cd7 14.Fh2 a6 15.Fd3 b5 16.e4 Tfe8 17.Tfe1 Ff8 18.e5 g6 [18...dxe5 19.Fxh7+ Rxh7 20.Cg5+ Rg6] 19.exd6 cxd4 20.cxd4 Cf6 21.Fe5 Cd5 22.Ce4 f5 23.Cf6+ Cxf6 24.Fxf6 Txd6 25.Fb1 Dd7 26.d5 [26.Fa2! Fg7 27.Fxg7 Dxg7 (27...Rxg7 28.d5) 28.d5 Ce7 29.dxe6 Fxf3 30.gxf3 Tc6 31.Fb3 (31.f4 Dh6 32.De3 Tc2 33.b4 Tec8 (33...Txa2 34.Db3) 34.Fb3 T2c3 35.Td8+ Txd8 36.Dxc3 Dxf4 37.Df6 Dc7 38.Df7+ Rh8) 31...Dh6 32.De5 Dxh3 33.Df6 Tcc8 34.Td7 Dxf3 35.Fd1 Df4 36.Te3] 26...Txd5 [26...Ca5! 27.Fc3 Cc4 28.Ce5 De7 (28...Cxe5 29.Dxe5 Fg7 30.dxe6 Texe6 31.Txd6 Txd6 32.Fa2+ Fd5) ] 27.Fa2 Txd1 28.Txd1 Df7 29.Fc3 h6 [29...Fc8!] 30.Ce5 Cxe5 31.Dxe5 Fg7 32.Dxg7+ Dxg7 33.Fxg7 Rxg7 34.Td7+ Rf6 35.Txb7 Td8 36.Tb6 Td2 37.Fxe6 Txb2 38.Fc8+ Rg5 39.Fxa6 Ta2 40.Fxb5 Txa3 41.Fe8 Ta1+ 42.Rh2 Ta2 43.Txg6+ [43.g3 f4 44.Rg2 fxg3 45.Rxg3 Ta3+ 46.f3 h5 47.h4+ Rh6 48.Fxg6 Tc3 49.Fe8+ Rg7 50.Fxh5] 43...Rf4 44.f3 h5 45.Th6 1–0
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #41 - 06/28/06 at 19:10:15
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My personal feeling about 1.d4 d5 2.a3 is that it's unlikely to be White's best, but that it deserves to exist. Having said that there are a couple of things I'm not clear on.
The first is the possibility of 2...g6. If 1.d4 Nf6 2.a3 doesn't work because of 2...g6 then it seems that it at least deserves consideration after 1...d5 as well. I can only see it mentioned after 2...Nf6 and 3...g6 which seems to remove a couple of possibilities for Black, the first being ...c5 when dxc5 is impossible because of Xb2, and second being the plan of f6,Nc6,e5 against Bf4.

The other thing is that I don't entirely understand is why is 2...c5 so bad. The only line I've found given is 2...c5 3.dxc5 e5 4.b4 a5 5.Bb2 axb4 6.axb4 Rxa1 7.Bxa1 b6 8.e3 bxc5 9.Bxe5 with an advantage for White, however what happens after 3...e6? If White plays the same way then e5 is not en prise which must help Black.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #40 - 06/28/06 at 17:20:05
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The Belgian connection Cool

"Dear Eric I respect you a lot but I am sorry to tell that you are incoherent and that your move a2-a3 serves nothing in the majority of cases"!!!

I do not give a damn about your respect for me as a person on this forum but I demand respect for my chess.
You do not understand what is the fruit of a more than 20 years experience at a + 2400 Level ?
Then humbly say it, ask for explainations or leave this section for a more appropriated territory ( 1.e4...) to your Morphy's spirit nostalgy.
Personally, the old games never interested me because, in those times, I always found the level of understanding of the opening phase absolutely disgracious.

I now play the London 3.Bf4 on the KID 2...g6 and the Nimzo 2...e6 and I am very happy with it.
I would like to play it on 1.d4 d5 as well but it is alas impossible :
2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bf4 c5! 4.e3 Nc6 5.c3 Qb6 6.Qb3 c4 7.Qc2 Bf5!
or 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5! 4.c3 Nc6 5.Nd2 Bf5 6.Qb3 Qd7! 7.Nf3 c4 and so on
Impossible only because "Black's queen bishop is alive" as examined from every angle for the "d pawn specials" subscribers.
If Black plays e6 with his bishop on c8 things are immediately more simple.
That is why I play the Prié 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 (hoping then for 3...e6, 3...Nc6, 3...c6, 3...g6, 3...Bf5...) Nf6 Sad 3.a3 c6 4.Bf4 Qb6?! 5.Qc1 Bf5 6.e3 followed by c2-c4-c5 probably against the badly placed black queen.
Got it now ?   

I have a big nose to detect trolls, French speaking people non subscribers of this section, and shoot them down in flames without waiting.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #39 - 06/28/06 at 01:33:37
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Uberdecker wrote on 06/23/06 at 10:11:08:
Cher Eric,
(...) Soyez assuré du respect que je vous porte en tant que joueur et ancien champion de Paris.


I dare say, respect is a pretty volatile substance.
GMEricPrie, you may have a magnificent chess understanding, is it a reason to answer Uberdeker's precise points with a copious blah-blah interspersed with heavy & repetitive advertising of your products, I think not.

"Need a drawing or you are just not a chesspublishing subscriber? buy some good books like (...)"
"I have no time to explain what your visibly quite limited chess understanding is not in measure to apprehend.
I good first step though would be to subscribe to this section!"
"and then come back to me with something more constructive than your hollow incredulity I do not give a weary regard about"

Ok, not a very elegant way to discuss, but at least you put your message through. Still I think the couplet on opening flexibility was unnecessary. Prophylactic moves in the opening are common since Paulsens time (you did yourself a parallel between e4 c5 and d4 d5 a3), and Uberdeker certainly does not need a schooling in the subject.

He also doesn't need a whole page of text to understand that d4 d5 a3 is aimed against c5. He has just said that he doesn't understand the following sentence :

GMEricPrie wrote on 06/23/06 at 09:21:18:
In the structure d4-d5, if you find me a way to play a London or Torre when Black's queen bishop is alive ie when Black has not played the suiting my purpose e7-e6 in his first two moves, I shamelessly drop the Prié on the spot!


and neither do I, unless some words are shuffled. Secondly, he doesn't see Black under pressure should he diabolically move his c-pawn only one square. Indeed, with d4 d5 a3 White prevents the attack on his proud centre but delays his own attack on the Black centre... only logical that Black has time to get bishop out safely.

It seems that openings like d4 d5 a3 or e4 c5 Na3 are en vogue, straying away from the principled Raw-Energy Approach that Morphy uncovered. I'd like to able to show d4 d5 a3 to Morphy or Capablanca : "that's what the 21st century players come up with..." I'd expect at least a large smile.

No, Uberdeker, the real reason why GMEricPrie plays that, the frank answer to your question was acknowledged by GMEP himself :

GMEricPrie wrote on 06/22/06 at 10:59:13:
Markovich is right : There is no alternative to the QG against 1...d5!
But it is like playing the Lemberger against the BDG : you may get more by risking more and accepting the pawn on f3 but it necessits a lot more work and energy. Also, I cannot stand the QG accepted because I hate to play positions with a defective structure like having an isolated pawn : either I lose it when I have it or get mated when I play against it!
 


Whereas some guys mate with the isolated pawn and win it when against it. That's the difference. In my opinion, taking f3 in B.D.G, playing Open Sicilian or Queen's Gambit does not necessit "a lot more work and energy", but, for sure, a little Morphy spirit.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #38 - 06/27/06 at 08:04:35
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a3 is not a bad move in the Torre - provided White always meets ...cxd4 with cxd4 (not exd4). The plan is simple solid play with b4 to come and aiming to prove his very slightly more active position is enough to grind out an edge.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #37 - 06/26/06 at 16:00:47
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I understand your thinking now TalJechin.  Do the points brought up for White in GM Prie's article in variation B (if I remember correctly) not make any case for you?  It seemed against one of Black's most logical options, White was playing a Torre with the move a3 which doesn't seem terribly ambitious.  I suppose I don't really know enough about the Torre to give an educated opinion, however.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #36 - 06/26/06 at 16:00:30
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TalJechin wrote on 06/26/06 at 15:24:45:
Quote:
"Ugly", really?  I can understand fairly nonconstructive, but I don't get the ugly tag since it doesn't seem antipositional.  If I were playing Black after 1.e3 d5 and I had the option of inserting ...a6, I would opt for it.  Of course what looks ugly and unnatural to one player may not to another.  GM Rowson once said something similiar.



Many years I remember some guy in my club at the time, commenting in the club paper on a game where black played both a6 and h6, that 'dogears' belong in books and not on the chess board. (i.e. 'hundöron' is when you fold the top corner of a page to know where you are in the book.)

As I'm a bit more open minded tha him, I can enjoy a dogear now and then - if I think there's a point to it. If I don't see the point it becomes ugly to me...

Btw, sometimes there's a clear point but it just doesn't work. E.g many years ago Martens had an idea called the Pawn Indian, i.e. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 a6 with one point being to avoid a Volga/Benko declined with ...b6 by having a6xb5. But, iirc, it didn't work due to 3.Nc3 c5 4.dxc5!


I recall Pal Benko (annotating a game Browne-Benko from the 1970s) commenting after 1. e4 g6 2. d4 Bg7 3. Nc3 d6 4. Nf3 a6 that in some countries such a move is called a "donkey's ear."  He remarked that White sometimes plays the slightly odd-looking 5. Bg5 (Browne played 5. Be2, I think), with the idea of meeting ...h6 with Be3 and later Qd2, "pulling" the other "donkey's ear."
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #35 - 06/26/06 at 15:24:45
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Quote:
"Ugly", really?  I can understand fairly nonconstructive, but I don't get the ugly tag since it doesn't seem antipositional.  If I were playing Black after 1.e3 d5 and I had the option of inserting ...a6, I would opt for it.  Of course what looks ugly and unnatural to one player may not to another.  GM Rowson once said something similiar.



Many years I remember some guy in my club at the time, commenting in the club paper on a game where black played both a6 and h6, that 'dogears' belong in books and not on the chess board. (i.e. 'hundöron' is when you fold the top corner of a page to know where you are in the book.)

As I'm a bit more open minded tha him, I can enjoy a dogear now and then - if I think there's a point to it. If I don't see the point it becomes ugly to me...

Btw, sometimes there's a clear point but it just doesn't work. E.g many years ago Martens had an idea called the Pawn Indian, i.e. 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 a6 with one point being to avoid a Volga/Benko declined with ...b6 by having a6xb5. But, iirc, it didn't work due to 3.Nc3 c5 4.dxc5!
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #34 - 06/26/06 at 14:42:03
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???
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #33 - 06/26/06 at 14:31:31
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Artificial anger puts me in the appropriate state of mind to win tournaments and that is what I did yesterday in the Pézenas rapid…thanks to the Prie attack against GM Bricard not hesitating to play a3-a4 at the right moment.  Cheesy

Everyone will understand I cannot develop here what happens against 1.d4 d5 2.a3 c6 or the neo-Prie attack 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.a3 (for it is not because I have to find something independent on 2…c5 that I have to prevent myself from meeting joys like 2…e6 3.Bf4, 2…c6 3.Bf4 2…Bf5 3.c4 and so on. Could somebody more patient then me indicate uberdeker why it is dubious to play a London system 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 (3.c3) c5! or 2.Nf3 (2.c3) Nf6 3.Bf4 (3.c3) c5! on the base of what I have written for the section ?) when NIC 79 which deals with the matter is just out.  

Some hints though :1.d4 d5 2.a3 inaugurates a new concept about the opening.
It is not trying to a adapt a defence to the first move like the King’s Indian attack, Bird opening but actually a systematic adaptation to what Black has done with his also excellent first move.

To try to grasp some of its spirit let’s invent a new rule where White starts from the ranks 7 and 8. So he plays 1.d5! a very good move putting a strong pawn in the centre! I bet everyone reading this thread shares this opinion otherwise they would not be here…
Then Black has the right to play two moves in a row provided that they are no captures.
And he plays 1…d4…a3. Who is better and why? Maybe it is just equal but let us check some of the suggestions of this poll. :

-.”the bishop attack” 2.Bg4 then 2…f3! Refutates it.  This is planned for the July update in normal chess where I recently crushed Mr Trompopoulos with it. OK I was Black and played a7-a6 a few moves later. Smiley

-“The Veresov” 2.Nc6 Nf3 3.Bg4 Nbd2 but I prefer to warn you that a2-a3 is very useful against any White 4th move now.

-“The Nf3 Torre” This variation should not appear on the poll because it is only a consequence of Black compromising himself with e7-e6 too early. In our case of “Prie chess” 2.Nf6 Nf3 3.Bg4? Ne5 and c2-c4 next

-“The Nf3 Colle3 2.Nf6 Nf3 3.e6 Put that way doesn’it look a bit ridiculous Wink 3…Bf4 or Bg5 4.c5 c3.

-“The Nf3 London” 2.Nf6 Nf3 3.Bf5? c4! 4.c6 (4.e6 Qb3) cxd5 5.cxd5 Qb3 6.Qb6 only move Qxb6 7.axb6 Nc3 with a pleasant edge for…the camp that has already moved his a pawn.

-"the neo-London" 2.Bf5 c4! the move a2-a3 renders the dangerous reaction 3.e5 dxe5 impossible here.

-“e3 the Stonewall attack” 2.e6 Nf3 3.f5 Bf4 or 2.f5 Bf4 no comment…

-You can add “the BDG” 2.e5? dxe5 3.Nc6 e4! a2-a3 is extremely useful in the Lemberger.

-The fianchetto 2.g6 Nf3 3.Bg7 c3 4.Nf6 Bf4 The move a3 is useless ... just like White's bishop on g7 hitting the granite of the Black's d4 pawn.

-2.c6 what a lame move! Think of 1.d4 d5 2.c3 In the d pawn specials sphere, White need his c pawn to unbalance the position! So Black replies 2…Nf3 3.Nf6 (or 3.Bf4) 3…Bf4 ( the bishop to f4 taljechin not g5) then 4.Qb6 is dubious like in Prie-Van Wely in “normal chess” where the dutch played his a pawn two moves later because of 4…Qc1 followed by c2-c4.

1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 What a ridiculous move! Somehow, being a specialist of this Chameleon-Chebanenko Slav, I know how to use it, in "Prie chess", however. Smiley  


1.d4 Nf6 2.a3 does not work because of 2…g6 with a2-a3 serving nothing and not because of 2…e6.
1.d4 e6 2.a3 Nf6 3.c4 is OK for White but I prefer 3.Nf3 first and if 3…c5 4.c3.

I am sorry I did not reply to you in French, dear Hubert, but I did not understand it. It looks so thrown together  Smiley it cannot be your mother tongue!
Possiblmy you should have written in a third language so that we could make the effort to understand each other ?        
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #32 - 06/26/06 at 13:27:22
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"Ugly", really?  I can understand fairly nonconstructive, but I don't get the ugly tag since it doesn't seem antipositional.  If I were playing Black after 1.e3 d5 and I had the option of inserting ...a6, I would opt for it.  Of course what looks ugly and unnatural to one player may not to another.  GM Rowson once said something similiar.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #31 - 06/26/06 at 13:03:12
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Quote:
I understand GM Prie's point about 2.a3.  It may take two weeks or more to convince myself that 2.a3 is actually better than 2.Nf3 or 2.Nc3, but apparently it's playable.   


I'm not convinced that it's better than the usual solids either, but it tends to provoke black a whole lot more!  Smiley

As for the objective merits of 1.d4 d5  2.a2-a3, I see the following

i) it makes a reversed QG a real gambit as 2...c5 3.dxc5 Qa5+ can be met by 4.b4

ii) control of b4 is useful, especially in lines where white can react with c2-c4, or if black tries to open the centre with e7-e5.

iii) the option of a reversed Chebanenko is a further discouragement of a black reversed QG set-up.


Compared with the Petrosian line in the QI - a2-a3 there doesn't seem to accomplish anything more than avoiding Bb4 and generally fit in with a c4+d4 set-up.


Black might have some set-ups that avoid the strong points of 2.a3 but presumably those would involve some other drawback. So it's hard to say anything without a concrete line...



As for 1.d4 e6 2.a3 - Here I don't see the light either. It just looks ugly to me.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #30 - 06/26/06 at 05:01:14
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...I for one haven't had any trouble understanding Mr.Pries'  English.  Unless of course I just think I'm understanding it, when in fact I'm not, after all I'm not an Englishman or Smyslov_Fan.   Cheesy


Hey, I resemble that remark!

Uberdecker is probably a better chess player than myself, and yet I undersand GM Prie's point about 2.a3.  It may take two weeks or more to convince myself that 2.a3 is actually better than 2.Nf3 or 2.Nc3, but apparently it's playable. 

Personally, I would love to see posts in languages other than English, at least occasionally.  I am constantly amazed at how well so many non-native speakers write in English.  I have difficulty composing even a few meager sentences in any language other than English and American. Embarrassed
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #29 - 06/25/06 at 13:37:33
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Unless I'm mistaken, 1.d4 d5 2.a3 Nf6 3.Nf3 c6, or 1.d4 d5 2.a3 c6, has yet to be covered in GM Pries' section.  I for one would like that to happen!  I don't want to add fuel to the fire, but I for one haven't had any trouble understanding Mr.Pries'  English.  Unless of course I just think I'm understanding it, when in fact I'm not, after all I'm not an Englishman or Smyslov_Fan.   Cheesy
« Last Edit: 06/26/06 at 06:03:19 by Glenn Snow »  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #28 - 06/25/06 at 13:04:58
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Dear Eric,

 After 1. e4 c5 I am in fact in a hurry to move my Queen with 2. Ktf3 Qc7 and 2. c3 Qa5 which are strong and underexplored continuations.
But this is neither here nor there. There is nothing wrong with non-developping, prophylactic moves in the opening, as long as they not only cut out the opponents' options, but [b]also[/b] play a significant role in the resulting positions. In the game given by TalJechin, for example, unless Black plays the ambitious 7. ...c5, "my limited chess understanding" does not allow me to see the use of a3...

In my last post, I suggested, in the most polite manner possible, that you answer in French, as your responses in English are incomprehensible.

The "incoherence" I mentionned earlier refers to the NIC article you wrote.
There you give two completely different suggestions for White in answer to 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. a3 e6 and 1. d4 e6 ; 2. a3 Ktf6. Neither are particularly convincing. For example, you say that 1. d4 e6 ; 2; a3 Ktf6 ; 3.c4 c5  is "pleasant for White", because of 4. Ktf3 followed by Ktc3 and e4. Now apart from 4. ...d5 with a Tarrasch or 3. ...d5 with options of other QGD defences with a3 thrown in, Black has 4. ...cd ; 5. Ktxd4 a6 ; 6. Ktc3 Qc7 ; 7. e4 which is an impeccable treatment by him of the 5. c4 Kan (which is not nearly as critical as 5. Bd3). One interesting and ambitious possiblity is 7. ...Ktxe4, which avoids the usual hedgehog positions.  

Of course, unless I subsribe to your section or you are generous enough to share your views on 1. d4 d5 ; 2. a3 c6 or 2. ...Ktf6 ; 3. Ktf3 c6 with us here, any further discussions of the desired London/Torre positions are impossible. Furthremore, this little debate is taking on a nasty personal and confrontational character. I suggest that you stop "wasting your time on me" and that we leave it at that.

                                                            Best regards,
                                                                   Hubert
« Last Edit: 06/25/06 at 15:12:10 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #27 - 06/25/06 at 07:04:57
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Cher ( en temps perdu!) hubert

1.e4 c5
This black move serves no real purpose ( Are in a rush to move your queen ? ) but avoids White taking a full centre.
I have no time to explain what your visibly quite limited chess understanding, confusing prophilaxy, rythm with incoherence for instance, is not in measure to apprehend.
I good first step though would be to subscribe to this section!

Cordially
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #26 - 06/24/06 at 22:53:16
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I've tried it for a couple days on the net, and I've scored miserably so far 1/4 - but it's hardly the openings fault, in blitz you tend to get in time trouble when you're not used to the positions in an opening. (I don't play 1...d5 and when I played 1.d4 I stuck with the QG so except for a brief period of C-Z games 5-6 years ago, I have little practical experience of these middlegames.)

So far my only win came after the 'critical' c6 set-up, which wasnt dealt with in the first article so I had to improvise. When the minors come off (moves 13-15) white suddenly gets an edge?!  Smiley

(TJ) (2301) - NN (2415) [D00]
Rated game, 3m + 0s Main Playing Hall, 24.06.2006

1.d4 d5 2.a3 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Ne4 5.Bf4 Bf5 6.e3 e6 7.Bd3 c5 8.c3 Nc6 9.b4 c4 10.Bc2 Be7 11.0-0 0-0 12.h3 h6 13.Nfd2 Nxd2 14.Nxd2 Bxc2 15.Qxc2 a5?! 16.b5 Nb8 17.a4 Bd6 18.Bxd6 Qxd6 19.e4 += Nd7 20.e5 Qe7 21.f4 Qh4 22.f5 Rae8 23.Rf3 f6 24.fxe6 Rxe6 25.Qf5 Rfe8 26.exf6 Nxf6 27.Raf1 Re2 28.Qg6 R8e6 29.Rg3 Nh5? [ 29...Ne8 30.Qf7+ Kh7] 30.Qf7+ Kh7 31.Rg4 Qe7 32.Qxh5 Rxd2 33.Qxd5 Ree2 34.Rf7 Qe3+ 35.Kh1? [ 35.Kh2+-] 35...Re1+? [ 35...Rd1+ 36.Kh2 Qg1+ 37.Kg3 Qe1+ 38.Kh2] 36.Kh2 Qg1+ 37.Kg3 Re3+ 38.Kh4 Qe1+ 39.g3 1-0
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #25 - 06/24/06 at 04:53:16
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In the interesting free arcticle written by GM Prie he often points out how the move a2-a3 was beneficial.  Things like allowing a b2-b4 push, simply guarding the b4-square, and in at least one example White got an edge because there wasn't a pawn hanging on a2.  Perhaps the move isn't always relevant, but it does seem have some merit.  If you already play similiar structures as Black you might want to give it a try.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #24 - 06/23/06 at 10:11:08
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Cher Eric,

 You needn't mount any high horses. I fully understand the value of preventing ...c5 in the London/Torre context. All I said was that in the resulting positions, the move a3 serves no useful purpose "[highlight]regardless of what you have managed to avoid[/highlight]". No need for a drawing here...

I happen to play London/Torre structures as Black against various Flank Openings, for example : 1. b3 Ktf6 ; 2. Bb2 d5 ; 3. e3 Bf5 ; 4. c4 e6 and White does not have Qb3.
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to play some of the same positions with Black as you with White, if one discounts the meaningless placement of the a-pawn.

[quote author=GMEricPrie link=1150663394/15#23 date=1151054478]
In the structure d4-d5, if you find me a way to play a London or Torre when Black's queen bishop is alive ie when Black has not played the suiting my purpose e7-e6 in his first two moves, I shamelessly drop the Prié on the spot![/quote]

Je n'ai pas bien compris ce que vous vouliez dire. Renvoyez-moi la question en français et je tenterai d'y répondre.
Evidemment, je n'ai pas la prétention de comprendre les échecs comme vous. Mais il me semble avoir relevé quelques incohérences dans l'exposé de votre conception.
Soyez assuré du respect que je vous porte en tant que joueur et ancien champion de Paris.

                                                                   Cordialement,
                                                                            Hubert
« Last Edit: 06/23/06 at 13:50:03 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #23 - 06/23/06 at 09:21:18
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Dear Hubert

"I believe 2.a3 is a necessary move to prevent the free shot c7-c5! when the Bc1 comes out the pawn chain."
Need a drawing or you are just not a chesspublishing subscriber?

In the structure d4-d5, if you find me a way to play a London or Torre when Black's queen bishop is alive ie when Black has not played the suiting my purpose e7-e6 in his first two moves, I shamelessly drop the Prié on the spot!

But I would rather suggest you start to investigate and figure out yourself the mecanisms of adaptation in the openings and reversed play, buy some good books like the a6 Slav (Everyman 2003) the latest NIC 79, since the first part of the article on the Prié published an announced on the NIC 78 frontpage is already on line and observe how many times this useful little a pawn move is employed nowadays at the highest level ( 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 a6!? Anand) and then come back to me (in a couple of weeks maybe ?) with something more constructive than your hollow incredulity I do not give a weary regard about

Eric  
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #22 - 06/22/06 at 19:52:02
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1.d4 d5 2.a3 is a subtle and quite interesting idea in my opinion, though I guess I'll need to try it in blitz a lot of times before I'd venture it in a longer game. It looks easy though!


To my surprise there were 125 games with 2.a3 (the similarly motivated 1.d4 d5 2.c3 has been tried over 800 times.), the first already in 1872 (via 1.a3) - but most non-Prie games seem to feature c2-c4 sooner or later against everything or a Stonewall Attack with the extra a3 move as in for example Kindermann-Fritz5 rapid in 1998.

Here's one for Diemer fans:

Diemer,E - Bartsch [D00]
Ried Ried, 1948

1.d4 d5 2.a3 a6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 c5 5.dxc5 Bxc5 6.b4 Be7 7.Bb2 Bf6 8.Nf3 b5 9.e4 Qc7 10.e5 Bxe5 11.Nxb5 1-0


A game I enjoyed looking thru was:

Aleksandrov,A (2510) - Raetsky,A (2510) [D00]
Krasnodar Krasnodar (2), 1995

1.d4 d5 2.a3 Nc6 3.Nf3 Bg4 4.Nbd2 e6 5.b4 Nf6 6.b5 Na5 7.Ne5 Bd6 8.Nxg4 Nxg4 9.e4 Nxf2 10.Kxf2 Qf6+ 11.Ke1 Qh4+ 12.g3 Bxg3+ 13.hxg3 Qxh1 14.exd5 0-0 15.Kf2 exd5 16.Nf3 Nc4 17.Bf4 Nd6 18.Bxd6 cxd6 19.Qd2 Rfe8 20.Rc1 Qh5 21.Bd3 h6 22.Kg2 Qg4 23.Rh1 Qe6 24.Qf4 Rad8 25.a4 b6 26.g4 Qe3 27.Qf5 Re6 28.Qh7+ Kf8 29.Re1 Qf4 30.Qh8+ Ke7 31.Rxe6+ fxe6 32.Qxg7+ Qf7 33.Qxh6 Rf8 34.Qh4+ Kd7 35.Qh7 Qxh7 36.Bxh7 Rc8 37.g5 Ke7 38.Bd3 Kf7 39.Kg3 Rc3 40.g6+ Kf6 41.Kg4 Ra3 42.Kh5 Rxa4 43.Kh6 Ra1 44.Kh7 Rh1+ 45.Kg8 Rh3 46.Ng5 Kxg5 47.g7 Kf4 48.Kf7 Rg3 49.Bg6 1-0


Btw, I hope there will be some space over in the next update both for that Hebden game I mentioned in the 'Tromp crush' thread, and any future developments of 2.a3!?  Smiley
« Last Edit: 06/23/06 at 07:53:45 by TalJechin »  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #21 - 06/22/06 at 18:43:44
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Dear Eric,

 Are we then to assume that you like to give your opponents pleasure?!

Surely you will admit that the move a3 serves no purpose in the positions that you wish to obtain (Torre, London...), regardless of what you have managed to avoid.

Once again, I can understand that such a variation as 1. d4 d5 "!" ; 2. a3 "!" is useful for you in practice, but extolling its theoretical merits is a bit odd, no?
                                           
                                 Regards,
                                    Hubert
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #20 - 06/22/06 at 13:34:51
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I believe 2.a3 is a necessary move to prevent the free shot c7-c5! when the Bc1 comes out the pawn chain.

1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3?! (3.c3 Bf5=) c5! and Black seizes the initiative. Look at my updates
1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5?! is the same after Ne4 of course followed by c7-c5 wherever the bishop retreats on f4 or h4.
1.d4 d5 2.Bg5?! f6 is just bad for White especially after 3.Bh4 See my game against Miladinovic a couple of weeks ago on the better 3.Bf4 and forthcoming July's update!

The natural set-up build around a strong d pawn with the queen bishop out of the pawn chain, Nf3, Nbd2, e3, c3 perfectly fits against any Colle approach where the opponent's locks his queen bishop inside his pawn chain, with any colour, in contact with an opposing d pawn or not (ie against an English move order  for instance 1.Nf3 d5 2.c4 c6 3.e3 Nf6 4.Nc3 a6 is the main move here intending Bf5 or Bg4) and generally with or without a3 or a6.

If, dubitatively, you are not yourself a 1.d4 d5! player as Black it is difficult to imagine the pleasure it is when your opponent does not enter the critical Slav lines!


  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #19 - 06/22/06 at 12:01:09
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Quote:
That is why I play the position with reverse colour and a useful extra tempo 2.a3!? in the pocket!


Quote:
(p211: [1.d4 d5 2.a3 e6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.Bg5] White now plays against a black Colle set-up which is always pleasant with or without a3!)


But e.g. in the game Prie-David Adams, didn't you just play a London set-up or a Torre Attack (Bg5 h6 Bf4) with a3 in  vs a Colle-Zukertort?

So, if this set-up is so potent even with a3, why would it be so toothless without a3? Sure, black can always play c6 - but he can do that against the QG too.

And if a3 is so necessary a waiting move could it not be delayed after e.g. 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.Bg5 e6 and now 4.a3,? Or 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 c5 3.e3 Nc6 and now 4.a3 - or am I missing something simple?
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #18 - 06/22/06 at 11:47:15
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Dear Eric,

 I actually did browse through your article and noticed that after 1. d4 e6 ; 2. a3("!" is a bit exagerated maybe?) Ktf6, you advocated 3. Bg5 or 3. Ktf3 followed by Bg5. As a former Tromp player, I find it very difficult to get enthusiastic about White's position here.
Of course, I don't doubt that you have plenty of scope to just play chess and defeat your opponent with your understanding and "manoeuvering excellence", but the intrinsic value of the move a3 is open to question...
You have also suggested (strangely enough only through the move-order 1. d4 Ktf6 ; 2. a3 e6) the continuation 3. c4 c5 ; 4. Ktf3 with Ktc3 and e4 to follow as being "pleasant for White". Here I admit that the move a3 is utterly justified if you can reach such hedgehog positions. But among others 4. ...d5 (with an "a3-Tarrasch") looks safe and equal for Black, although I understand that this is not a problem for you.

Here I have mentionned only 2. a3 in response to 2. ...e6, which is my main choice, but no doubt others will have questions and comments to submit on other forms of Prié Attack.

Naturally, I agree that 2. e3 is just as meek against 1. ...d5 and 1. ...Ktf6 as it is against  1. ...e6, but I consider the symmetrical bird line I gave to be just as strong for Black as the Reversed London or "Reversed Trashcan Stonewall". Also, I gather that you appreciate the use of unknown systems.

                                                     Regards,
                                                            Hubert
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #17 - 06/22/06 at 10:59:13
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Markovich is right : There is no alternative to the QG against 1...d5!
But it is like playing the Lemberger against the BDG : you may get more by risking more and accepting the pawn on f3 but it necessits a lot more work and energy. Also, I cannot stand the QG accepted because I am useles in endings ( dxc5 leading to an exchange of queens) and I hate to play positions with a defective structure like having an isolated pawn : either I lose it when I have it or get mated when I play against it!
That is why I play the position with reverse colour and a useful extra tempo 2.a3!? in the pocket!

Personally, when Black, I lick my laughing lips in anticipation when I see 1.d4 d5 2.e3?! but uberdeker, who did not read the article ( pursued in NIC 79, by the way, with heavy text explaination and planned next-year for chesspublishing) has probably something clever to oppose to that ?

Then the Colle move order is the only opening in the nice choice (...for Black Smiley) given above but only when the opponent transposes into a slow Slav by 2...Nf6 3.Nf3 c6 ( 3...Bg4 is more dynamic and corresponds to my december 2003 update but 4.h3! takes the bishop ) 4.c4.

My (only?) strength in chess is my understanding of the position that obviously comprises the crucial opening phase allied with manoeuvering excellence.
Neither do I need or desire to pass through dubious positions, with those complications I try to avoid like the plague, to get what I want. As White I systematically play on homeground and I feel good.  
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #16 - 06/21/06 at 18:32:49
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IM CW, I don't have a problem with Summerscale's suggestion. My point was more that the plan with Ne5/f4 and a king-side attack is difficult unless black plays d5.  Mainly because black can kick the knight on e5 away with d6. But also because the bishop on b7 may be strong if white pushes to hard on the king-side, and also if white has to play g3 to avoid Nd5-f4 after an exchange on d4. 
By all means, the CZ-set up with Bd3, b3 and Bb2 etc is also OK here, but IMHO (warning, I'm only 1900!) it is perhaps better followed by c4 and play in the centre and on the queen-side, rather than the standard Pillsbury attack.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #15 - 06/21/06 at 13:39:50
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Thanks Inn2, I had missed the box on the right!


Quote:
Anyway, what do you dislike about his suggestions against the QI-setup? Do you think there is a flaw in the lines given? Or is it that you just don't like the resulting positions?


Well, his suggestion of a classical QI set-up for white is probably the best idea. When the book was new to me I also liked it, but in some blitz games against strong opposition I remember that I didn't get anywhere as white back then.
And when recently revisiting the systems, I'd forgotten about his recommendation, I've been playing a pure C / C-Z set-up which is quite toothless vs QI imo. Guess I'll need to reread it...
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #14 - 06/21/06 at 06:22:49
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Quote:
Well, it's not a specific line but rather that the typical play (e.g. Ne5 + f4) isn't on.


Quote:
Interesting topic. I voted for CZ after 1. d4 d5. After 1. d4 Nf6, I agree with TalJechin that QI can be a problem in a standard CZ where black delays/doesn't play d5 (so he can play d6 if I play Ne5).


Coming back to this discussion, I would like to know what exactly gives you a headache Smiley

I read Summerscale's book as well, and find his suggestions against the QI very useful; I love to play against it! The only thing is that I find the Barry Attack a bit tame at times as people tend to play ...c5 when you do not get your usual attacking positions; by no means do I think that the occuring positions are not good to play, but it is simply not my taste to shuffle pieces around...

Anyway, what do you dislike about his suggestions against the QI-setup? Do you think there is a flaw in the lines given? Or is it that you just don't like the resulting positions?
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #13 - 06/20/06 at 17:24:52
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If d-pawn Special enthusisats are reduced to 2.a3, it must mean that they are rather desperate when faced 2. ...e6 !
Indeed, Trompowsky is avoided and 2. Ktf3 can be answered -among other things- by the immediate 2. ...c5 as can 2. Bf4.
Black also gets good prospects against the Stonewall Attack with an unusual form of symmetrical Bird :
1. d4 e6 ; 2. e3 b6 ; 3. f4 f5 ; 4. Ktf3 Ktf6 ; 5. Bd3 Bb7 ; 6. 0-0 Be7 ; 7. c3 0-0 ; 8. Ktbd2 d6 ; 9. Qe2 Kte4
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #12 - 06/20/06 at 13:03:44
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http://www.newinchess.com/Archives/SurveysList.aspx?&OpeningID=22

--> link on the right "A White Chameleon"

I thought his idea of 1. d4 e6 2. a3 was actually quite useful!
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #11 - 06/20/06 at 11:02:26
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@ Inn2

I couldn't find any sample article but the games of that YB had some Prie adventures with 1.d4 d5 2.a3 - though I can't say that I understand it. My first impression was that black should have something more critical than 2...e6 or 2...Nf6 - though I don't see what...  Huh

In a way the idea seems reminiscent of the Tromp, but instead of jumping around with the bishop he plays a3 and is ready to employ any of the D-special systems... Confusing but interesting! Maybe 2.a3!? is the best way to use the idea of combining the plethora of d-pawn systems!?  Shocked


So far I've leaned towards C-Z or Veresov, with the option of a Barry (seems I forgot this one in the vote, sorry.) if black for example plays an early c6, b6 or similar. So 2.Nf3 may be the optimal move if one's not ready to give a tempo...

Anyway, black's choice of moves may be more restricted than some people here seems to think.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #10 - 06/20/06 at 10:02:55
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@taljechin:

you will be interested to know that Prie's article on 1. d4/2. a3 is available for free download at newinchess.com web site as a sample article.
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #9 - 06/20/06 at 07:35:22
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Interesting topic. I voted for CZ after 1. d4 d5. After 1. d4 Nf6, I agree with TalJechin that QI can be a problem in a standard CZ where black delays/doesn't play d5 (so he can play d6 if I play Ne5). But I would still play 2. Nf3. At least, after 2...e6 there won't be an annoying bishop on f5 or g4!

And I still have several decent options, f.ex.
a) Bf4, e3, Bd3, Nbd2, c3, 0-0, and play for the e4 advance (perhaps prepared by Re1/Qe2 - and h3 to save the bishop with Bh2)
b) a set-up with c4 and Nc3 - perhaps e3, Bd3, 0-0, c4, Nc3 and then b3/Bb2 or Bd2, Rc1 etc.

With b3/Bb2, one can either go for Ne5/f4/Rf3 etc if black plays d5, or play more positionally with c4. Sometimes one can do both. I like the similarities with one of my black openings, the Stonewall dutch, with a b6/Bb7/c5-plan and often Ne4.  

Ok, no variations here and black may obviously cause some problems. But in general these are solid systems with an aggressive potential (which hopefully may surprise black after a placid start to the game).

  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #8 - 06/19/06 at 21:43:08
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2 e4!! 

Nex
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #7 - 06/19/06 at 16:03:02
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[quote author=Markovich link=1150663394/0#5 date=1150732093]After 1. d4 d5, there is no good alternative to the Queen's Gambit.  [/quote]

It may come as bad news for Trompovskites who tend to view their opening as being completely independant from 1.d4/2.c4 but this statement is entirely correct. It is however possible to delay the QG for one move with 2. Ktf3, though this has its own drawbacks...
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #6 - 06/19/06 at 15:54:06
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What no BDG??

*Runs away Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #5 - 06/19/06 at 15:48:13
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After 1. d4 d5, there is no good alternative to the Queen's Gambit.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - white's best nonQG alternative?
Reply #4 - 06/19/06 at 10:59:02
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Quote:
I am occasionally playing the Colle-Zukertort myself, and with good results.

I wonder, why are you fearing the QI-setup? Maybe you could provide one or two lines you are especially uncomfortable with.



Well, it's not a specific line but rather that the typical play (e.g. Ne5 + f4) isn't on. In blitz I've tried some different plans, mostly advancing pawns on the q-side, but nothing much happens until the time troubles...
After reading Summerscale's book some years back I had a fling with the C-Z and scored quite well in the handful of games I tried it. Actually, I think I gave it up after beating an IM wth the Barry - though that involved turning a lost position into a win in his time trouble. -Must've figured I wouldnt be that lucky twice...


Quote:
Against 1. d4 d5 there is the Prie Attack 2. a3!?, which Eric himself did an article in recent NIC yearbook.


Shocked  And the point is to hope for 2...Nf6 3.Bg5 or?
  
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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #3 - 06/19/06 at 06:25:56
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I am occasionally playing the Colle-Zukertort myself, and with good results.

I wonder, why are you fearing the QI-setup? Maybe you could provide one or two lines you are especially uncomfortable with.
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #2 - 06/19/06 at 04:22:36
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TalJechin probably will not object facing variations with ...dxc4, as these allow White to play in KG spirit!  Smiley
  

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Re: 1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a
Reply #1 - 06/19/06 at 03:32:02
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Against 1. d4 d5 there is the Prie Attack 2. a3!?, which Eric himself did an article in recent NIC yearbook. (though I'm still trying to treat that move seriously!)  The Psuedo Tromp 2. Bg5 is worth a try, but also not convinced its very good. The Catalan works against 1. d4 d5 2. c4 e6, but then you have to prepare against the Slav. Being in a similar situation as you some years ago, I decided that best was to bite the bullet and learn 1. d4 d5 2. c4. I also think 1. d4 e6 is a problem if you are bent on "d-pawn specials" and if you don't like QI vs. Torre/London, White should then probably learn 2. e4 (French) or the Catalan.
  
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1.d4 d5 - what's white's best alternative to a QG?
06/18/06 at 20:43:14
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After 1.d4 Nf6 I can see myself trying the Trompowski or even the Veresov, but after 1.d4 d5 has there been any discussion of which non-QG set that is most promising and why?

I wouldn't be too keen on always playing a Colle or Zukertort Colle, due to the QI-set up. Which also seem fine against the London, but if I knew black wants to play the KID then a London may not be too bad a weapon.

So, assuming that one is not limited to always playing the same D-pawn Special against everthing, has anyone here thought about how to combine white's different systems for optimal performance?

For example:

After:

1,d4 f5 the Veresov set-up seems the best chance to me (i.e. 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 d5)

1.d4 c5 the 'boring' 2.e3 may be the most frustrating for black as it avoids the Benoni he was angling for, and he may not feel at home in a QG reversed with a tempo down.

1.d4 e6 2.Nf3 with a Colle/Torre or Iljin Dutch main line

1.d4 c6 2.c3/2.Nf3/2.Nc3 lots of white options here

And finally 1.d4 d5 and what's best in your opinions and why? And is there any black option at move two that would make you change from one intended system to another after for example 1.d4 d5 2.Nf3 xxx 3.Bg5/3.e3/3.Bf4 - ?

2.Bg5 Hodgson Attack
2.Nc3 Veresov
2.Nf3 Torre
2.Nf3 Colle
2.Nf3 Colle Zukertort
2.Nf3 London
2.Bf4 London
2.e3 Stonewall Attack
  
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