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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) French setup against the GPA (Read 21044 times)
OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #3 - 06/22/06 at 05:57:13
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MNb wrote on 06/22/06 at 04:17:34:
Most enterprising though is 6.exd5 Nxd5 (exd5 7.Qe2 and Black has problems finishing his development) 7.o-o (again 7.Ne5 is met with Bd7, but 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.o-o might be more precise) Nxf4 (Bd7!?) and this has only occurred in a game I hardly understand. 8.d3 Ng6 9.Ng5 f6 10.Bxc6+ Bxc6 11.Qf3 Ne5
a)12.Qg3 Qd4+ 13.Be3 Qg4 14.Qf2 fxg5 15.d4 cxd4 16.Bxd4 and White won in Korolev-Obuchovsky, URS 1973. Lane's suggestion Qf4 looks like a refutation.
b)So when I played the GPA I intended 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Qe2 fxg5 14.Qxe5 Qd4+ 15.Qe3. This is about equal, but all the weak pawns ensure an interesting game.
This is it - the next few days I will not have time analyzing this stuff. I know this is not a full answer to Ostapbender's post; I must save the rest for now.


After 6.exd5 Nxd5 then 7.0-0 looks like a good try to demonstrate an advantage, but I'm not so sure about grabbing the pawn with 7...Nxf4.  I haven't analyzed it, but I don't like the prospect of the black king getting stuck in the center.  (I don't understand what you mean by "Lane's suggestion Qf4 looks like a refutation."  Probably I'm missing something, but I don't see a place in the Korolev-Obuchovsky where Qf4 makes sense.)

You mention 7...Bd7 (to avoid doubled pawns) but this also seems kind of dodgy after 8.Nxd5 exd5 9.Re1+ Be7 10.Qe2 - the e-file pressure looks uncomfortable.

I think that Black's best move here is probably simply 7...Be7, getting ready to castle.

After Bxc6 and ...bxc6 Black has to hope that his pawn weaknesses will be compensated by his bishop pair.  I think the position should be open enough for the bishops to have pretty good scope.

Regarding the statement "White does better with Open Sicilian lines than just about any version of the Grand Prix Attack," perhaps this is too harsh and certainly it's just a nonconstructive, dumb thing to say - totally beside the point.  Such blustery, opinionated commentary doesn't belong here - in a non-gambit thread!  Grin

Thanks for the reply.  I'll take a look at the rest - particularly 4...Nge7 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Nc6 8.Qf2 where we seem to have a major difference of opinion.

I'm interested to hear what you have to say about 4...a6 which looks, perhaps naively, like it might just lead into a Taimanov Sicilian.
  

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MNb
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #2 - 06/22/06 at 04:17:34
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This is a harsh comment, especially if we realize, that both the Najdorf and the Svesjnikov are considered satisfactory for Black these days. In this form I certainly cannot agree.
Unlike Ostapbender I think 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 e6 4.Nf3 Nge7 5.d4 (5.Be2 again might be a reasonable idea) cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 (d5 7.Be3!?) 7.Qxd4 Nc6 8.Qf2 somewhat better for White.
The hardest nut to crack imo is 4...d5 5.Bb5 Nge7. Black's setup is derived from Rubinstein's idea to meet the Nimzo-Indian and the Dutch-Bb4 with 4.e3 and 5.Nge2. The big difference is White (in the GPA) already having a pawn on e4. The good news for Black is, that in the NID it is not a good idea to meet 4.e3 and 5.Nge2 with the e6-e5 plan. The bad news is, that his pieces are still in each others way. The big question is, how White can take maximal benefit.
I don't believe in 6.Ne5 as Bd7 leads to exchanges. But I might have been too early to dismiss 6.Qe2 as dxe4 7.Nxe4 a6 8.Bxc6+ Nxc6 9.b3 Be7 10.Bb2 o-o 11.o-o is not so easy for Black: b5 12.Neg5 Qd5 13.c4 bxc4 14.bxc4 Qf5 15.Ne4 Bb7 16.d3 +=Day-Boyd, Toronto 1982. The natural Rfd8?! is met with 17.Bxg7! This does not win a pawn due to the weakling on d3, but leaves White with the better position. So I must also have a closer look at 6.o-o dxe4 7.Nxe4 a6 8.Bxc6+ Nxc6 9.b3.
Most enterprising though is 6.exd5 Nxd5 (exd5 7.Qe2 and Black has problems finishing his development) 7.o-o (again 7.Ne5 is met with Bd7, but 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.o-o might be more precise) Nxf4 (Bd7!?) and this has only occurred in a game I hardly understand. 8.d3 Ng6 9.Ng5 f6 10.Bxc6+ Bxc6 11.Qf3 Ne5
a)12.Qg3 Qd4+ 13.Be3 Qg4 14.Qf2 fxg5 15.d4 cxd4 16.Bxd4 and White won in Korolev-Obuchovsky, URS 1973. Lane's suggestion Qf4 looks like a refutation.
b)So when I played the GPA I intended 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Qe2 fxg5 14.Qxe5 Qd4+ 15.Qe3. This is about equal, but all the weak pawns ensure an interesting game.
This is it - the next few days I will not have time analyzing this stuff. I know this is not a full answer to Ostapbender's post; I must save the rest for now.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #1 - 06/21/06 at 14:35:22
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Do I think 1.e4 c5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 gives Black equality?  Wow!  I didn't know that; thanks for clarifiying.  Not many opening lines where Black equalizes after just three moves, are there? Wink

Following 4.Nc3 I said that I thought Black should be OK after 4...d5

[4...Nge7 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Nc6 doesn't look very troubling for Black either]

5.Bb5 Nge7

Now 6.exd5 (the immediate 6.Ne5 should also be considered here, I think) looks challenging when Black should probably reply 6...Nxd5

[I'm not so sure about 6...exd5 7.Qe2 Qd6 8.d4! cxd4 9.Nxd4]

then 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.Ne5 Bd6 is an interesting line which occurred in Minasian-Becerra, Lucerne 1997.

The game continuation was:
9.d3 Bxe5 10.fxe5 Qh4+ 11.g3 Qd4

Other possibilities are:
9.0–0 Nxf4

9.Nxc6 Nxc3 10.dxc3 Qc7 (here Black is even a bit better)

After 4.Nc3 Black can even consider 4...a6.

The point is that I don't think that White has anything special here.  I'll agree that White has gotten to play a Grand Prix Attack avoiding some of Black's more seriously challenging lines - big deal.  White does better with Open Sicilian lines than just about any version of the Grand Prix Attack.
  

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MNb
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French setup against the GPA
06/21/06 at 12:47:11
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In the Flank Openings Section, 1.f5 c5 thread, it has become clear, that after 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 White's best is 3.e4. Then Bladez and Ostapbender seem to think, that e6 gives Black equality.
As this is a GPA, this line should be debated here.

I think 1.e4 c5 2.f4 Nc6 inferior to 2...d5; 2...e6 and even 2...g6. I am not sure yet, what White's best is after 1.e4 c5 2.f4 Nc6 3.Nf3 e6 as 4.Be2 idea d5 5.d3 might be worth a try. 4.c3 goes back to the famous McDonnell - De la Bourdonnais match of 1834. It has been dismissed since then because of d5. This also looks strong after 4.c4 d5.
White's main move (I will have another look at 4.Be2) seems to be 4.Nc3 then, which is another transposition: 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 e6 (g6 is the most important system) 4.Nf3.
a)4...Nge7 5.d4.
b)4...d5 5.Bb5 Nge7 and now 6.exd5 might be best, as 6.Qe2 and 6.o-o can be answered with dxe4.
c)4...d5 5.Bb5 Nf6 6.Bxc6 bxc6 7.e5 and I think White can hope for an advantage, if he plays in Nimzo-Indian style (basically b3, d3, Ba3, Na4 and c4 in some move order).

I would welcome any contribution of those, who (dis)agree.
  

The book had the effect good books usually have: it made the stupids more stupid, the intelligent more intelligent and the other thousands of readers remained unchanged.
GC Lichtenberg
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