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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) French setup against the GPA (Read 20888 times)
OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #18 - 06/24/06 at 18:46:47
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1150894032/15#16 date=1151152557] Will post more when the subject turns to 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. f4 e6 ; 4. Ktf3 Ktge7[/quote]

[u]The [b]4…Nge7[/b] line:[/u]

[b]1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 e6 4.Nf3 Nge7[/b]

[color=#3366ff]I still think [b]4...a6!?[/b] is worth considering here, intending to answer [b]5.g3[/b] with [b]5...d5[/b][/color]

[b]5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Nc6[/b]

[color=#3366ff]Another idea is [b]7...a6[/b] intending [b]...Ng6 [/b]rather than [b]...Nc6[/b]. For example: [b]8.Qf2 b5 9.Bd3 Ng6 10.Be3 Bb7 11.Bd4 Qc7 12.0–0 f6[/b] Lein-Ivanovic, Lone Pine 1980/0–1 (72).  On g6 the knight aids the defense of the king and does not block the Bb7 or Qc7.  (this possibility mentioned in Hodgson and Day's [i]Grand Prix Attack[/i] book)[/color]

[b]8.Qf2[/b] (other queen moves are possible; is [b]Qf2[/b] clearly best?)

[b]8...d5[/b]

[color=#3366ff][b]8...Bb4[/b] (also suggested by Uberdeker) was played in Sigurjonsson-Ciocaltea, Caracas 1970 - a game which is not encouraging from Black's perspective, but perhaps there are improvements.  Maybe something to consider later.[/color]

[b]9.Bd3[/b]

[color=#3366ff][b]9.exd5 exd5 10.Bd3[/b] doesn't seem to accomplish anything for White.

[b]9.e5[/b] might be worth considering.[/color]

[b]9...d4[/b]

[color=#3366ff][b]9...Be7[/b] followed by [b]10...0–0[/b] can be considered.[/color]

[b]10.Nb1[/b]

[color=#3366ff][b]10.Ne2 Bb4+ 11.Kf1[/b] doesn't look like much of an alternative, but it worked out well in the game Ye Jiangchuan-Li Zunian, Jakarta 1987.  Maybe something to consider later.[/color]

[b]10...Bb4+[/b]

[color=#3366ff][b]10...Be7[/b] and [b]10...Bc5[/b] also look reasonable.

[b]10...Nb4[/b] (played in Hebden-Meulders, Marbella 1982), intending [b]11...Nxd3[/b], is too slow. [/color]

[b]11.Nd2 e5 12.0–0 exf4 13.Qxf4 Qe7 14.Qg3 0–0 15.Nf3 Bd6 16.Bf4 Bxf4 17.Qxf4 Be6[/b] was played in Berg- Dzevlan, SWE-chT  1999, which concluded:

[b]18.a3 f6 19.Rad1 Rad8 20.Qh4 g6 21.Rf2 a6 22.h3 Qc7 23.Rfd2 Ne5 24.Qf2 Nxf3+ 25.Qxf3 Qe5 26.Bf1 Rd7 27.c3 Rfd8 28.cxd4 Rxd4 29.Rxd4 Rxd4 30.Rxd4 Qxd4+ 31.Qf2 Qe5 32.Bd3 Kg7 33.Qb6 Bd7 34.Qb4 Bc6 35.Qc3 Qd6 36.b4 h5 37.Kh1 h4 38.Kg1 g5 39.Bc2 Qg3 40.Qxg3 hxg3 41.Kf1 Bb5+ 42.Ke1 Kf7 43.a4 Bc4 44.Bd1 Ke6 45.Kd2 Bf1 46.Bf3 Ke5 47.a5 Bb5 48.Ke3 Bc6 49.Kd3 f5 0–1[/b]

Based on this, the line [b]8…d5 9.Bd3 d4 10.Nb1 Bb4+[/b] looks OK for Black.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #17 - 06/24/06 at 13:45:44
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MarinFan wrote on 06/22/06 at 14:10:11:
Hello,

Sorry I have forgotten something simple here, is

1.e4 c5 2.f4 Nc6 3 Nf3 g6 4Bb5 good for white, because can answer 4... Nd4 with a later c3?

Bye John S


This is one of the drawbacks of the 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 move order (used to avoid the gambit 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5): with the white knight on c3 a later Bb5 is effectively answered by ...Nd4.  Gallagher discusses this point in his Beating the Anti-Sicilians book.
  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #16 - 06/24/06 at 12:35:57
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1150894032/0#5 date=1150963853]
If indeed White's best after 1. e4 c5 ; 2. f4?! Ktc6 (2. ...d5!) ; 3. Ktf3 e6 is 4. Ktc3, then there is no particular point to the Bird move-order, since the 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. f4 e6 is in no way inferior to 3. ...g6 [/quote]

This is not altogether correct. With the Bird, White avoids the line 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 e6 (3. f4 is incorrect) since 1. f4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 can be answered by 3. b3 and White can reasonably play for an edge.
Also, whether 3. ...e6 is better than 3. ...g6 or not, White is of course avoiding some of Black's possibilities, which means that some Sicilian players have to find independant answers to the Bird.
But, once again, unless MNb comes up with a good alternative to 4. Ktc3, the line 1. e4 c5 ; 2. f4?! is irrelevant to our discussion.

Will post more when the subject turns to 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. f4 e6 ; 4. Ktf3 Ktge7

                        Regards,
                           Hubert

P.S. MarinFan, you have answered your own question
  
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #15 - 06/23/06 at 23:03:19
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The plan 10.b3 , Ne2, c4 sounds logical but it is slow.

after 10.b3  Black could, among other ideas, use the plan ...Ba6 ...f6 and ...c4  ...c5 (thanks to the double pawn) and it is Black who immediately puts the pressure on White, and after Black starts making pawns breaks and pawn attacks on the center from left side and right, his bishops draw more power.  I still do not see where Black has to worry about equalizing.

Ostap,

I fixed the issue.  It was a typo.  I like ...Nf6 since it immediately puts pressure on the center.  I do not know if its better than Nge7, but it is enough to give White a good fight.

Angry
« Last Edit: 06/24/06 at 00:43:53 by BladezII »  

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MNb
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #14 - 06/23/06 at 20:25:55
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A very quick and short reaction to Bladez' post: the plan 10.b3, 11.Ne2 and 12.c4 is better than the stereotypical 10.Qe1. White must play on two wings to get somewhere. I will return at that one after I have done some serious analysis of the game Minasian-Alterman.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #13 - 06/23/06 at 06:31:50
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BladezII wrote on 06/23/06 at 04:03:37:
12...  Nb6 13. Na4 Nb6 14. Nxb6 axb6


12...Nb6 looks like a typo.  Did you mean 12...Rb8 instead?

I hadn't really given much thought to 5...Nf6.  Do you think it's better that 5...Nge7 or just a different way to go?
  

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OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #12 - 06/23/06 at 06:24:47
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[quote author=MNb link=1150894032/0#10 date=1151027323]15.Kh1?!
-15.Rf2 Qh4 16.Qe2+
a)16...Ne5 17.Nxd5 Bd6 18.g3 Qc4 19.Nxf6+ Ke7 20.Qh5 and I do not envy Black.
b)16...Kf7 17.Nxd5 18.Rf4 Qg5 18.Re4 +- [/quote]

You're missing a move for Black in line b) after [b]15.Rf2 Qh4 16.Qe2+[/b].  [b]17...Ne5[/b] I guess.

I still think that [b]6...exd5[/b] doesn't look like Black's best try ([b]6...Nxd5[/b] is better), but I wonder if there might be a better move than [b]7...Qd6[/b] after [b]7.Qe2[/b].  Avoiding the doubled pawns doesn't seem to be worth the loss of time, and White has other strong moves such as [b]8.d4[/b].  [b]7...Bg4[/b] has been played here and is probably better, but not likely good enough to save the line for Black.

I think the next line to consider is [b]6...Nxd5 7.0-0 Be7 8.Bxc6 bxc6[/b] (or equivalently [b]7.Bxc6 bxc6 8.0-0 Be7[/b]) followed by [b]9.Ne5[/b] as played in Minasian-Alterman, Manila 1992.  At an initial glance this game is not encouraging from Black's point of view.  For one thing, Black has a lot of trouble activating his light-squared bishop (eventually giving up a pawn to accomplish this).

Maybe [b]4...d5[/b] is too optimistic after all (or premature).  Certainly Black still has problems to solve after [b]5.Bb5 Nge7[/b].
  

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BladezII
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #11 - 06/23/06 at 04:03:37
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1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. Bb5 Nf6 6. Bxc6+ bxc6 7. e5 Nd7 8. d3
Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Qe1 Ba6 11. Qg3

11... f5 this is a thematic move in these types of positions

12. Bd2

A.12. Ng5 Bxg5 13. Qxg5

(13. fxg5 Qb6) 13... Qxg5 14. fxg5 d4 15. Ne2 Nxe5)

B.12. exf6 Rxf6 13. Qg4 Bd6
14. Re1 Qe7
15. Bd2 Re8
16. Ne5   How else to stop Black from playing  ...e5 ?

16....     h5
17. Qg3 Bxe5
18. fxe5 Rf5
19. h4 Ref8

C. 12.Re1  
and Black has ideas of ...Nb6, ...d5, ...Nd5, ....Rb8


Main Line-- (Continued)

12...  Rb8 13. Na4 Nb6 14. Nxb6 axb6

Black has a nice phalanx on the Q-side and
White's K-side play is not easy to to make it stronger or make it progress.
Black can also start to open lines in the center and make his bishops a
stronger force to reckon with.

This is a little bit of what I have in my personal info/research.  Let me know what you propose for White and which I have not mentioned.  I am looking forward to it.

As far as I know, Black has nothing to worry about.

Angry
« Last Edit: 06/23/06 at 22:23:53 by BladezII »  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #10 - 06/23/06 at 01:48:43
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1150894032/0#7 date=1150973703]Dear MNb,

 1. e4 c5 ; 2. f4 has nothing to do with our discussion.
The comparison we are drawing here is between 1. f4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 Ktc6 ; 3. e4 e6 ; 4. Ktc3 and 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. f4 e6 ; 4. Ktf3.
From what I gather, you are arguing that with the Bird m.o. , White avoids Black's best lines against the 2. Ktc3 Grand Prix on the basis that 3. ...g6 is superior to 3. ...e6. Several of us beg to differ...

                                    Regards,
                                          Hubert[/quote]

Dear Überdeker,

you might (re?)read the thread on 1.f4 c5 in the Flank Section. There the question was, if White should transpose to the GPA. Then an important question is, if White can avoid strong Black defences. One of them was of course 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5. Another one imo is 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4.
This also is avoided after 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 (but Black might consider e6 at once, I have not figured out that one yet) 3.e4 e6 4.Nc3 d5 5.Bb5 because of dxe4?! 6.Bxc6+. So Willempie's examples might be irrelevant for the Bird-player (but see 2...e6).
That leads to two questions. Has White other options but 4.Nc3 ? Only 4.Be2 comes into consideration. The other one is how to evaluate 4.Nc3. If this is good for Black, then of course 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 e6 is at least as good as 3...g6. If White can play for an advantage, then 3...e6 of course is inferior to 3...g6.
I tend to the latter, but preserve the right to change my opinion. All I can say now, is that on top level (2500+) 3...g6 is more popular, but that should urge nobody to change his view.

Kudo's,
MNb


@Ostapbender

1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.Nc3 d5 5.Bb5 Nge7 6.exd5 exd5
I think this inferior to Nxd5.

7.Qe2 Qd6 8.Bxc6+ Qxc6
-8...bxc6 9.o-o g6 10.b3 Bg7 11.Ba3 and White is better.

9.Ne5 Qd6
9...Qb6? 10.Qb5+!

10.o-o f6
10...a6 11.d3 f6 12.Qh5+ g6 13.Nxg6 Nxg6 14.f5 Qe5 Kosten-Rovid-Budapest 1984, 15.Bg5 Qd4+ 16.Kh1 fxg5 17.fxg6 Kd8 18.gxh7 with great compensation. White won with the slower 15.Bd2.

11.Qh5+ g6 12.Nxg6 Nxg6 13.f5 Qe5 14.d4 Qxd4
-14...cxd4 15.Bg5! Bxf5 16.Bxf6 Qxf6 17.Rae1+ with great compensation.

15.Kh1?!
-15.Rf2 Qh4 16.Qe2+
a)16...Ne5 17.Nxd5 Bd6 18.g3 Qc4 19.Nxf6+ Ke7 20.Qh5 and I do not envy Black.
b)16...Kf7 17.Nxd5 18.Rf4 Qg5 18.Re4 +-.

15...Qh4 16.Qe2+ Kf7?
-Black should have played 16...Ne5 17.Nxd5 Bd6 and the best I could find is 18.g3 Qc4 19.Nxf6+ Ke7 20.Qd1 Bd7. This line makes clear, why 15.Rf2 is better.

17.Nxd5 Ne5e 18.Bf4
-18.Rf4 Qg5 19.Re4 +-. Also after the textmove White won quickly.

This was the easy stuff. I still have to look at Minasian-Alterman, Olympiad 1992. I just want to state, that 6.exd5 Nxd5 7.o-o Bd7 is only relevant for the correct move order. If it is good, White will play 7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.o-o. If 7...Bd7 is bad, Black will not play it.
« Last Edit: 06/23/06 at 04:00:06 by MNb »  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #9 - 06/22/06 at 15:16:55
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[quote author=Uberdeker link=1150894032/0#5 date=1150963853]
Well, White can steer the game into a regular Closed Sicilian with 5. g3 and either Black's ...a6 or ...Ktc6 is out of place.

Also, after 8. Qf2 a6 in the line subject to disagreement, there is no direct transposition, since 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. d4 cd ; 4. Ktxd4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktc3 a6 ; 6. f4 Ktge7 is met by 7. Ktf3.
But Black's idea in this independant Open Sic. position is that he can do without the usual ...a6.
Both 8. ...Bb4 and 8. ...d5 are fully satisfactory and give Black no problems IMO. [/quote]

Thanks for your input on the [b]4...Nge7 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Nc6 8.Qf2[/b] line.  It's encouraging to know I 'might' have made a valid point here, although I have no doubt MNb will present ideas to which may put the issue back in doubt.

Regarding [b]4...a6[/b] I had assumed (without really thinking it through I admit) that White would be inclined to play [b]5.d4[/b] since otherwise Black just can play [b]5...d5[/b].  After [b]5.g3 d5[/b] is Black really that bad off?  I can see that I would rather have played a developing move than [b]...a6[/b], but it's not obvious to me that White can punish Black for this 'wasted' move.
  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #8 - 06/22/06 at 14:10:11
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Hello,

Sorry I have forgotten something simple here, is

1.e4 c5 2.f4 Nc6 3 Nf3 g6 4Bb5 good for white, because can answer 4... Nd4 with a later c3?

Bye John S
  
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #7 - 06/22/06 at 10:55:03
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Dear MNb,

  1. e4 c5 ; 2. f4 has nothing to do with our discussion.
The comparison we are drawing here is between 1. f4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 Ktc6 ; 3. e4 e6 ; 4. Ktc3 and 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. f4 e6 ; 4. Ktf3.
From what I gather, you are arguing that with the Bird m.o. , White avoids Black's best lines against the 2. Ktc3 Grand Prix on the basis that 3. ...g6 is superior to 3. ...e6. Several of us beg to differ...

                                    Regards,
                                          Hubert
  
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #6 - 06/22/06 at 10:39:11
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The point of the Bird move order is exactly to avoid 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5!
I will get back at that Pseudo Open Sicilian 4...Nge7 5.d4 later.
  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #5 - 06/22/06 at 08:10:53
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[quote author=OstapBender link=1150894032/0#3 date=1150955833][quote author=MNb link=1150894032/0#2 date=1150949854]

Thanks for the reply.  I'll take a look at the rest - particularly [b]4...Nge7 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Nc6 8.Qf2[/b] where we seem to have a major difference of opinion.

I'm interested to hear what you have to say about [b]4...a6[/b] which looks, perhaps naively, like it might just lead into a Taimanov Sicilian.[/quote]

Well, White can steer the game into a regular Closed Sicilian with 5. g3 and either Black's ...a6 or ...Ktc6 is out of place.

Also, after 8. Qf2 a6 in the line subject to disagreement, there is no direct transposition, since 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktf3 e6 ; 3. d4 cd ; 4. Ktxd4 Ktc6 ; 5. Ktc3 a6 ; 6. f4 Ktge7 is met by 7. Ktf3.
But Black's idea in this independant Open Sic. position is that he can do without the usual ...a6.
Both 8. ...Bb4 and 8. ...d5 are fully satisfactory and give Black no problems IMO.

If indeed White's best after 1. e4 c5 ; 2. f4?! Ktc6 (2. ...d5!) ; 3. Ktf3 e6 is 4. Ktc3, then there is no particular point to the Bird move-order, since the 1. e4 c5 ; 2. Ktc3 Ktc6 ; 3. f4 e6 is in no way inferior to 3. ...g6
« Last Edit: 06/22/06 at 09:48:06 by Uberdecker »  
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #4 - 06/22/06 at 07:33:04
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To add some spice with some black alternatives:

[Event "Warsaw AIG Life rapid"]
[Site "Warsaw"]
[Date "2004.12.18"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Roszkowski,Rafal"]
[Black "Bologan,Viktor"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "B21"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.0-0 a6 8.Bxc6 Bxc6 9.d3 Nf6 10.Nxf6+ gxf6 11.Be3 Rg8 12.d4 c4 13.f5 Qd5 14.fxe6 fxe6 15.Qe2 Bd6 16.Rf2 0-0-0 17.c3 Qh5 18.Qxc4 Kb8 19.Kf1 Bb5 0-1

And to show white's best:
[Event "Amber-blind 7th"]
[Site "Monte Carlo"]
[Date "1998.03.13"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Sadler,Matthew"]
[Black "Lautier,Joel"]
[Result "1/2"]
[Eco "B21"]
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 e6 3.f4 d5 4.Nf3 dxe4 5.Nxe4 Nc6 6.Bb5 Bd7 7.0-0 Nf6 8.Nxf6+ Qxf6
9.Ne5 Rc8 10.Nxd7 Kxd7 11.c3 Bd6 12.d3 Rhd8 13.Be3 a6 14.Ba4 Ke7 15.Bc2 Kf8 16.Qh5 Qg6
17.Qf3 Nd4 18.Bxd4 cxd4 19.c4 Rc7 20.Rae1 Kg8 21.Re4 b6 22.Kh1 Be7 23.f5 exf5 24.Qxf5 Qxf5
25.Rxf5 Bc5 26.g4 g6 27.Rf1 Be7 28.Rfe1 Bg5 29.Re8+ Rxe8 30.Rxe8+ Kg7 31.Kg2 Rc6 32.Bd1 a5
33.Bf3 Re6 34.Rxe6  1/2
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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