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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) French setup against the GPA (Read 20886 times)
MNb
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #33 - 01/09/07 at 00:35:29
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There is nothing wrong with Bladez' lines, except that he does not give White's best continuation. It does not make sense to me to prepare an attack (11.Qg3) which is doomed to fail.
Though I am not sure about the best move order, I will follow Bladez' : 5.Bb5 Nf6 6.Bxc6+ (6.d3 or 6.e5 first) bxc6 7.d3 (7.e5) Be7 8.e5 (8.0-0 c4!?) Nd7 9.0-0 (maybe 9.Ne2 0-0 10.c4, but Black has 9...Ba6 of course) 0-0 10.Qe1 (might be more precise than 10.b3 at once) Ba6 11.b3
Lately I stumbled into a very nice game Vinken-Stumpers, NED 1942, which went 11.Ne2 c4 12.d4 c5 13.c3 Rb8 14.Rb1 and with the queenside safe White went on to prepare a crushing kingside attack. But 11...f6 looks like a big improvement.

11...c4
11...f6 12.Ba3 evt followed by 13.Na4 and I think White is somewhat better.

12.bxc4 dxc4 13.d4
Thus far only three games have been played with this line. I think White has an edge. An important idea is to play x.a4 and y.Ba3. Black's c-pawns look like a long term weakness to me.

But then again, 4...a6 keeps on depressing me. White surely does not want to play 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 b5. Black even can use this move order to enter the Scheveningen. That's not what I would play the GPA for.
So I have looked at 5.d3 d5 6.Qe2, but Nd4 is very annoying.
  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #32 - 07/14/06 at 13:51:46
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Hello,

   Was browsing Rogozenko's book, but looks pretty good in lines have looked at, and has generally good reviews, so going to buy it soon.
                      Could see nothing wrong in the lines BladeII presented, were Bb5 was allowed. From a general airy fairy point of view, thought white's idea of damaging black's pawn structure would be quite promising. The concrete lines were quite the opposite though were the doubled c-pawn's were even useful in  creating dynamic play for black. So don't think 4..a6 is necessary, just another valid way for black to play.

Bye John S
  
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OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #31 - 07/12/06 at 14:33:48
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Thanks for this info.  When I recommended 4...a6 initially it was just an off-the-cuff remark - a way of suggesting that White's position was not threatening and Black even has time to play a non-developing move (with the useful feature, of course, of stopping Bb5 which proved to be a real headache in the lines we focused on first in this thread).  It's gratifying to hear that it has some theoretical endorsement elsewhere.

What do you think of Rogozenko's Anti-Sicilian guide, BTW?  I've been thinking of getting it because I feel more comfortable with the idea of playing ...e6 based lines against the Closed Sicilian than the the ...g6 lines offered in Gallagher's Anti-Sicilian book.


  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #30 - 07/12/06 at 13:43:01
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Hello,

Just some small points. The position, after 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.Nc3 a6  is the recommended
defence in Anti-Sicilians: A Guide for Black by Dorian Rogozenko, for players with early e6 as their open defence, i.e. Taimanov or Paulsen.
             If  5.d4 then 5... pxp 6. Nxp Qc7 tranposes directly to the open variation of Taimanov recommend in chapter 6 of Delchev/Semkov's book. Delchev prefer's this line to 6...NxN  7.QxN mentioned earlier in this thread.

Bye John S
  
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #29 - 07/01/06 at 20:06:07
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I still feel that 1... c5 is as good as any other reply to 1.f4.  Frankly, I do not see many GPA devotees try to reach it via this move order since the Sicilian is so popular of a reply to 1.e4.  But I know there are 1.f4 players prepared to meet 1.... c5. 
I think that White has absolutely nothing in 1.f4  c5  unless he ends up playing for e4 which is likely to transpose into a Sicilian defense.  If and when it transposes, I am very much at home and comfortable.  Black has good chances to play for the win and/or equalize vs the Bird move order and in the Grand Prix Attack in the Sicilian.

Wink
  

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OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #28 - 06/30/06 at 21:15:56
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MNb wrote on 06/30/06 at 20:11:33:
Point for Ostapbender.

Thanks, but completely undeserved.  All I did was pose a couple of questions - partly out of interest since I face the Bird now and then and sometimes play 1...c5, but probably mostly to support BladezII whose suggestions seemed too valid to be dismissed out of hand (which is where I thought the original thread might be heading).

You did all the hard work, and provided the serious supporting analysis.

MNb, I will always enjoy getting into a theoretical discusion with you - even (perhaps especially) when we don't agree.  I will try to do more to pull my own weight in the future!

BTW:
If there is a line we are both interested in exploring that you might want to start up a game on (similar to the Willempie-HgMan game going on in the 1.e4 ... section), let me know (by post in Discussion section or PM).

Cheers,
Ostap
  

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MNb
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #27 - 06/30/06 at 20:11:33
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Sometimes my thinking is a bit slow. When writing my previous post, I did not realise that 1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.Nc3
a)4...a6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Ne7 and
b)4...Nge7 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 a6 lead to the same position.
What's more, this is in fact an Open Sicilian:
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.d4 cxd4 4.Nxd4 Nc6 5.Nc3 a6 6.f4 (somewhat off-beat) Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Ne7.
It's the same, if Black does not play 6...Nxd4, but 6...Nge7 or 6...a6.

Überdeker already stated, that Black should avoid this transposition in line b with either 7...d5 or 7...Bb4.
A logical question is, can Black improve on line a? I am afraid, yes. 4...a6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 and besides 6...Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Ne7 and 6...Nge7 Black has the normal moves 6...d6 and 6...Qc7, which are regular Open Sicilians. That's a lot of work to meet a relatively rare move like 4...a6. White may expect, that Black is experienced and/or prepared for this highly respectable stuff.
So what should White do? 5.g3 d5 6.d3 Nf6 7.Qe2 Nd4 for example looks good for Black. 5.d3 d5 6.Be2 is probably not much either: 6...dxe4 7.dxe4 Qxd1+ 8.Nxd1 Nf6 Diaz-Colon Romero, Havana 1966 or 6...d4 7.Nb1 Bd6 8.o-o Nge7 9.a4 o-o 10.Na3 Ng6. In these cases White rather would have his knight on b1 yet. So must White turn to other 4th move options? At the moment I am demotivated to look at the 4.Nc3 main lines.
Point for Ostapbender.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #26 - 06/30/06 at 04:41:08
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MNb:

Just now saw your post, but won't have time to digest it all tonight.  I will try to take a look, and comment as appropriate, in the next couple of days.  In particular, I need to take a closer look at accepting the gambit in your main line with 7...Nxf4 which I might have dismissed too quickly.

Thanks for the reply.  You provided much food for thought.
  

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MNb
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #25 - 06/30/06 at 04:31:38
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Minasian-Alterman
Olympiade Manila 1992
1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.f4 e6 4.Nf3
1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.Nc3
-4.Qe2 followed by 5.g3 is an interesting option. Also 4.d3/5.Be2 is an option: White wants to play a Dutch IZ with colours reversed and two extra tempi.

4...d5
-4...a6 imo casts doubts on White's 4th move. My first impression also was, that White can transpose to a Closed Sicilian, with Black having spoiled a tempo. But Black has done very well after 5.d3 d5 and 5.g3 d5. One reason is, that there is not a Black knight to attack with e4-e5. Another reason is, that White only can avoid the early exchange of queens with 6.Qe2, which provokes a later ...Nd4. The third reason one can find by comparing with 1.e4 c5 2.Nc3 Nc6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 and ...d5 is less easy to achieve.
Black will not mind a transposition to the Open Sicilian either: 4...a6 5.d4 cxd4 6.Nxd4 Nxd4 7.Qxd4 Ne7.
The best I could find until now is 5.d3 d5 6.Be2. All in all I begin to feel, that the moves Nc3 and Qe2 do not combine very well; he would rather have the move c2-c3 still available. This is also the case, if White plays the bishop to e2.

5.Bb5 Nge7 6.exd5 Nxd5
-In a previous post I have shown the dangers of 6...exd5 7.Qe2 Qd6. Black has other 7th moves, but they do not look good enough for equality. The usual idea is 8.Bxc6+ bxc6 followed by b3 and Ba3.

7.o-o
-7.Bxc6+ bxc6 8.o-o Nxc3 9.bxc3 Bd6! Stjazjkina-Slavina, St Petersburg 2000, is an improved version of the main game.

7...Be7
-I agree with Ostapbender, that 7...Bd7 8.Nxd5 exd5 9.Re1+ Be7 10.Qe2 looks good for White.
Note, that 7...Nxc3 8.bxc3 Bd6 can be answered with 9.Ne5 Bd7 10.Bxc6 Bxc6 11.Nxc6 bxc6 12.Qf3 with some advantage.
But I maintain that 7...Nxf4 is critical. 8.d3 Ng6 9.Ng5 f6 10.Bxc6+ bxc6 11.Qf3 Ne5 (Qb6 12.Na4 Qb5 13.b3 fxg5 14.Qf7+ Kd8 15.Bxg5+ with a dangerous attack) 12.Qg3 (12.Qh5+ g6 13.Qe2 fxg5 14.Qxe5 Qd4+ 15.Qe3 Bg7 16.Kh1 Qxe3 17.Bxe3 c4 18.Bxg5 cxd3 19.cxd3 and in this endgame Black's weak pawns are compensated by the two bishops and the weakling on d3) Qd4+ (Be7 13.Be3 o-o 14.Nge4 c4 15.d4 and maybe White is a little better) 13.Be3 Qg4 14.Qf2 fxg5 15.d4 cxd4 (Nd7 16.Qf7+ Kd8 17.Rad1 Kc7 18.dxc5 again with a dangerous attack) 16.Bxd4 Korolev-Obuchovsky, Moscow 1973, and I would be glad to learn how to meet Qf4!
a)17.Bxe5 Qxf2+ (Qxe5 18.Qf7+ Kd8 19.Rad1 Bd6 20.Rxd6+ Qxd6 21.Qxg7 Re8 22.Rd1 Qxd1+ 23.Nxd1 +=) 18.Kxf2 Kf7 19.Rad1 Be7 with some compensation. But White can get an improved version of this endgame with 12.Qh5+.
b)17.Qxf4 gxf4 18.Bxe5 Bc5+ 19.Kh1 o-o 20.Rxf4 Rxf4 21.Bxf4 Bd4 and Black is at least equal.

8.Bxc6+ bxc6 9.Ne5 Qc7
-9...Nxc3 10.bxc3 Qd5 11.d3 o-o 12.Qe1 Rb8 13.c4 Qd6 14.Qe4 or 14.Qf2 +=.

10.d3 o-o
-10...Nxc3 11.bxc3 o-o 12.Qf3 Bb7 13.Rb1 Rab8 14.c4 Ba8 15.Rb3 +=.

11.Ne4 f6
-Here Lane suggests 11...f5, but as far as I can see this only loses a tempo. 12.Ng3 Bf6 13.Qe2 g6 14.Re1 with full control of square e5.

12.Nc4 f5 13.Ng3 Bf6 14.Qe2 Nb6
-Lane's other suggestion 14...g6 makes sense, as 15.Ne5 Bxe5 16.fxe5 f4 17.Qf2 c4 18.dxc4 Ba6 is not definitely better for White. I propose 15.Rb1 a5 16.Bd2 (16.a4 Ba6 17.Qxe6+ is unclear) a4 17.a3 Bd4+ 18.Kh1 Rb8 19.Ba5 Qe7 20.Ne5 +=.

15.Ne5 Bxe5 16.fxe5
Black already felt, he needed to give up a pawn to create some counterplay.
  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #24 - 06/29/06 at 14:25:56
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BladezII wrote on 06/29/06 at 05:45:17:
MnB,

If you grow tired of people reacting (reacting is key word) to the things you tell people or say about them, then don't say anything to them or about them.  If you do, make sure they are nice.  At least, with me, you will never receive anything negative if you are kind and polite with me.  I will always treat you with respect if you are always nice and very polite with me.

Let's put it behind.  Let's start with a clean sheet.  Forget the past.  I extend a diplomatic/friendly handshake to you.


After this, almost anything seems possible.
Sniff.  Not a dry eye in the house...  

Smiley
  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #23 - 06/29/06 at 05:45:17
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1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. Bb5 Nf6 6. Bxc6+ bxc6 7. d3 Be7

I doubt White has anything here since if he ever plays e5, Black will have a ready made plan
of ...Nd7 ...Ba6 ...c4 ....f6 or ...f5.    If White does nothing active then
he is just turning over the initiative or he admitted that Black has already
equalized.

Any opening of the center will likely favor Black slightly because of the two bishops.

MnB,

If you grow tired of people reacting (reacting is key word) to the things you tell people or say about them, then don't say anything to them or about them.  If you do, make sure they are nice.  At least, with me, you will never receive anything negative if you are kind and polite with me.  I will always treat you with respect if you are always nice and very polite with me.

Let's put it behind.  Let's start with a clean sheet.  Forget the past.  I extend a diplomatic/friendly handshake to you.
  

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BladezII
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #22 - 06/27/06 at 02:31:32
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MnB,

What about our discussion in our specific line?  Do you agree now that Black has no problems in the line we were discussing ?  (I was discussing the lines with ...Nf6)  If not, why? 

Angry
  

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MNb
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #21 - 06/27/06 at 02:15:53
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1.f4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.e4 e6 4.d3 d5 (has Black better?) 5.Qe2 followed by 6.g3 is certainly interesting. This often arises after 1.e4 e6 2.Qe2 c5/Ne7/Nf6/Be7 3.f4.
But I have strong doubts on 4.Bb5 Nge7 5.o-o as Black can postpone d5 and play 5...g6 instead. Then why not 4.Be2 at once? Lines with ...Nf6 are not that fearsome. At the other hand provoking ...a6 only helps Black.
But your main point is clear: White does not need to transpose to the Nc3 GPA.
  

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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #20 - 06/26/06 at 16:30:56
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Coming from the Bird, this is how I would play it:
1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. e4 e6 4. d3 d5 5. Qe2 !? Nge7 6. g3 g6 7. Bg2 Bg7 8. O-O
O-O 9. c3, going for a middle game struggle with a space advantage for white.

Alternatively I am looking into:
1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. e4 e6 4. Bb5 d5 5. Qe2 !? and
1. f4 c5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. e4 e6 4. Bb5 Nge7 5. O-O a6 6. Be2 d5 7. d3 g6 8. c3
trying to avoid simplifications, and to give black also something to think about.

The analysis already given above, I am following with much interest. Black seems to have several interesting alternatives for obtaining equality.




  
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Re: French setup against the GPA
Reply #19 - 06/25/06 at 22:26:17
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To summarize and make for easier reading, I organize what I wrote earlier into this post.  I hope we have more discussion here if there are still serious ideas from those who champion the cause for White here or from those who just have an interest in this line of the Grand Prix Attack.


1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 d5 5. Bb5 Nf6 6. Bxc6+ bxc6 7. e5 Nd7 8. d3
Be7 9. O-O O-O 10. Qe1

[The plan 10.b3 , Ne2, c4 sounds logical but it is slow.

After 10.b3  Black could, among other ideas, use the plan ...Ba6 ...c4  ...f6  and ...c5   (thanks to the double pawn)  and it is Black who immediately puts the pressure on White, and after Black starts making pawns breaks and pawn attacks on the center from left side and right, his bishops draw more power.  I still do not see where Black has to worry about equalizing.  Angry ]

10...  Ba6
11. Qg3   f5

this is a thematic move in these types of positions

12. Bd2  

A.12. Ng5 Bxg5 13. Qxg5

(13. fxg5 Qb6) 13... Qxg5 14. fxg5 d4 15. Ne2 Nxe5)  

B.12. exf6 Rxf6 13. Qg4 Bd6
14. Re1 Qe7  
15. Bd2 Re8  
16. Ne5   How else to stop Black from playing  ...e5 ?

16....     h5  
17. Qg3 Bxe5  
18. fxe5 Rf5  
19. h4 Ref8

C. 12.Re1    
and Black has ideas of ...Nb6, ...d5, ...Nd5, ....Rb8


Main Line-- (Continued)

12...  Rb8 13. Na4 Nb6 14. Nxb6 axb6  

Black has a nice phalanx on the Q-side and
White's K-side play is not easy to to make it stronger or make it progress.  
Black can also start to open lines in the center and make his bishops a
stronger force to reckon with.

This is a little bit of what I have in my personal info/research.  Let me know what you propose for White and which I have not mentioned.  I am looking forward to it.

As far as I know, Black has nothing to worry about.
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