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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6 (Read 128511 times)
OstapBender
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #185 - 07/18/06 at 05:48:43
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Here's a specific line illustrating the bishop exchange idea I alluded to above:
22.Rdf1 Nc6 23.Nxc6+ (I don't think 23.Kd2 Nxd4 24.cxd4 looks any better, but maybe White might has other options here?) 23...Rxc6 24.Kd2 (24.f5 25.d4) and now 24...Bb5 leads to the desired exchange 25.Bxb5 axb5

After something like 26.f5 Rc4 27.a3 (to prevent 27...b4) 27...Re4 I guess White is still better, but I don't see an obvious winning plan (maybe someone else does?).  I think Black should have good chances to draw here.

There may be improvements for White in this line, and I'm not entirely sure of my assessment of the final position, but I thought I'd put this forward for discussion regarding positions where White has a rook on f1.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #184 - 07/18/06 at 04:04:42
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MNb wrote on 07/18/06 at 02:47:06:
22.Rdf1 is an option.
I have tried to make b7-b5 work, but because of the weakness on a6 Black cannot continue with b5-b4.

After 22.Rdf1, Black might have a plan of exchanging the second pair of knights (via ...Nc6) then playing ...Bb5 (skewering Bd3 and Rf1).  Exchanging light-squared bishops, even at the cost of doubled b-pawns, should lead to a pretty drawish position (a-file will be open for ...Ra8, and a2-a3 could be answered by ...Ra4 and ...b4).  I haven't worked out specific lines, but I think this plan could be a general concern for White with a rook on f1.
  

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MNb
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #183 - 07/18/06 at 02:47:06
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22.Rdf1 is an option.
I have tried to make b7-b5 work, but because of the weakness on a6 Black cannot continue with b5-b4.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #182 - 07/17/06 at 21:52:46
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Smyslov_Fan: Thank you for the encouragement; I will keep plugging away, though you're right about Willempie still having the better chances.

I'm currently looking at 19 c3 Nxd4 20 Nxd4 Ke7 21 Rhg1 Ba4 22 Rd2 Nc6 23 Bb1 Nxd4 24 Rxd4 Bb5 25 a4 and now there's a speculative piece sacrifice: 25 ... Bc4 26 b3 Bxb3 27 Rb4 Bxa4 28 Rxa4 Rxc3+.  I don't know if any big, bad engines (or chessplayers(!)) care to weigh in on that.  I presume that if I can take the rooks off the board then I should be alright--after all this does rid me of my maligned bishop. 29 Kd2 Rhc8 30 Bd3 Rb3 and Hiarcs doesn't put me any worse off than I am right now.  In fact, if I can take off a pair of rooks (31 Raa1 Rcc3 32 Bc2 Ra3 33 Rxa3 Rxa3--pure fantasy, I know), the position starts to look pretty palatable.  Surely, though, this line in general can't be good for Black.  I must have better resources elsewhere.

Nevertheless, I think even this line shows it might be difficult for White to advance either the f- or the g-pawn...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #181 - 07/17/06 at 15:27:54
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/17/06 at 14:28:03:
You're not out of the woods yet and Willempie is a good, resourceful player.

And beware being lulled into a false sense of security by that cute, little, Dutch smurf persona.  That 'innocent' trip to the zoo was probably to study the predators!  Wink

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3

current position


Be afraid...

...be VERY afraid!
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #180 - 07/17/06 at 15:16:06
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OstapBender wrote on 07/17/06 at 15:07:26:
We've focused on the f5 push so far, but the alternative g5 (as Willempie mentioned a couple of times now) also looks like it could be very dangerous for Black.

Plus a combinitation of the two like this is not inconceivable either (not necessarily in this order): Rhg1, f5, g5, f6
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #179 - 07/17/06 at 15:07:26
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We've focused on the f5 push so far, but the alternative g5 (as Willempie mentioned a couple of times now) also looks like it could be very dangerous for Black.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #178 - 07/17/06 at 14:47:50
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/17/06 at 14:28:03:
If White knew he was going to play 19.c3, I wonder if he still would have played 14.0-0-0 instead of Rd1.  Still, 19.c3 guarantees keeping the B on the b1-h7 diagonal.

HgMan,

You're not out of the woods yet and Willempie is a good, resourceful player.  But, I am beginning to find hope for you since f4-f5 doesn't seem to work.  It aint pretty, but your Nec6 may be effective!  (You haven't won me over just yet, but keep plugging away!)

Thanks for the compliment Cool

Well I dont think f5 is off the table just yet. With the bishop guarantueed on the b1-h7 diagonal, f5 is back on (also g5 but for that I'd prolly need Rhg1 first).

I also feel that Nc4 by black at some point is not particularly dangerous. It looks to me like an "active" move which only helps white, because if need be it can always be exchanged for the bishop leaving black with the bad bishop against a fairly decent knight. On the other hand the knight on c4 may invite all kinds of pawn breaks starting with f5 or g5.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #177 - 07/17/06 at 14:28:03
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If White knew he was going to play 19.c3, I wonder if he still would have played 14.0-0-0 instead of Rd1.  Still, 19.c3 guarantees keeping the B on the b1-h7 diagonal.

HgMan,

You're not out of the woods yet and Willempie is a good, resourceful player.  But, I am beginning to find hope for you since f4-f5 doesn't seem to work.  It aint pretty, but your Nec6 may be effective!  (You haven't won me over just yet, but keep plugging away!)
  
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #176 - 07/17/06 at 13:13:24
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woofwoof wrote on 07/17/06 at 05:25:11:
The overall posn isnt so unpleasant as it looks for black despite the  "-ve" feeback so far from some. It isnt so comfortable I must admit, then again I'm always one for more freedom & activity. Anyway I did subjct the current posn to deep positional analysis on my ol' EXTREME, & the best it could come up with was a 0.28 advantage to white (how does one put a "+" over an "= "?)  That's still  minor difference, so it is approximately equal for all practical purposes, so black still has lots to play for, tho not so easy either.

White still needs some regrouping to really get the pawn push underway, so not so serious yet, I think. Schematically anyway, I feel the best plan now is to try to double the rooks on the C-file. 1 can advance up & down, while the other exrts more pressure on it or patrols the 8th rank whenever needed.

My apologies to Hgman If I had come up with some dubious ideas/moves along the way. Embarrassed

btw I did not let EXTREME finish the analysis as it was taking a LONG time. but the figure I gave above was abt there.


Wow!  0.28 is a lot more optimistic than what Hiarcs is giving me, but I'll take it!  Grin  I would imagine that a number of players would prefer more dynamic play for Black, but I don't mind defending so long as I don't get overrun.  I'm not sure there are too many solid, counter-attacking methods available to Black in the Advance Caro that don't shred Black's pawn structure.  What I'm enjoying about this game and our collective exploration of this line is the prospect of using this line in correspondence games in the future.  Win or lose here, I can't help feeling that I will be especially well-prepared to face the Advance Caro-Kann in the future.

woofwoof: thank you for your suggestions.  I don't recall any dubious ideas along the way.  You were absolutely right about the c-file earlier, and I think you're right about getting the second rook there as soon as possible.  I just need to determine whether I should play 19 c3 Ke7, or whether 19 ... Nxd4 should come first. 

I posted 19 ... Nxd4 20 Nxd4 Ke7 21 Rhe1 b5 22 Kb1 Nc4 last night, and that may still be best.  Willempie's bishop is the best minor piece on the board, and he's right to think it belongs on the b1-h7 diagonal, but I don't think he needs to drop it back to b1 without it being provoked first.  In fact, it could be necessary to give it up in exchange for a knight on c4 if that knight starts to look dangerous.  My instinct is that slow maneuvering helps Black more than it helps White, but I could be wrong.

On 19 Nxc6, I was looking at 19 ... Rxc6 as a method of freeing c8 for the other rook.  I'll post a little analysis this evening...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #175 - 07/17/06 at 09:00:02
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1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3

I checked the others out and found them lacking and in almost all cases would wish I had the move c3 in somewhere.
Eg 19.f5 Nb4 20.fxe6 Nxd3+ 21. Rxd3 fxe6 looked good enough for black to me. The way I see it is that the b1-h7 diagonal is key so I have to keep the bishop on.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #174 - 07/17/06 at 08:08:57
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HgMan wrote on 07/17/06 at 02:57:13:
I had a really cunning plan for 19 c3, but I don't remember what it was!

As cunning as a fox who's just been appointed Professor of Cunning at Oxford University?
Wink


Currently mainly lloking at 19.c3. After all, never change a winning plan Grin

19. f5 seems a bit premature, but very much looking into it and into 19.Nxc6 Nxc6 20.f5. But for the moment I tend to agree with the earlier assessments.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #173 - 07/17/06 at 05:25:11
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The overall posn isnt so unpleasant as it looks for black despite the  "-ve" feeback so far from some. It isnt so comfortable I must admit, then again I'm always one for more freedom & activity. Anyway I did subjct the current posn to deep positional analysis on my ol' EXTREME, & the best it could come up with was a 0.28 advantage to white (how does one put a "+" over an "= "?)  That's still  minor difference, so it is approximately equal for all practical purposes, so black still has lots to play for, tho not so easy either.

White still needs some regrouping to really get the pawn push underway, so not so serious yet, I think. Schematically anyway, I feel the best plan now is to try to double the rooks on the C-file. 1 can advance up & down, while the other exrts more pressure on it or patrols the 8th rank whenever needed.

My apologies to Hgman If I had come up with some dubious ideas/moves along the way. Embarrassed

btw I did not let EXTREME finish the analysis as it was taking a LONG time. but the figure I gave above was abt there.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #172 - 07/17/06 at 03:24:25
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/17/06 at 03:13:33:
Quote:
I had a really cunning plan for 19 c3, but I don't remember what it was!  As a correspondence player, my not taking good notes is a cardinal sin....


Thanks for the advice, Hgman!  I haven't played correspondence chess, but now I'm beginning to see the need for a good notebook (virtual or paper)!

If you have any other advice for correspondence novices, please share them!


Double-check everything--twice!  Then check it again.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #171 - 07/17/06 at 03:13:33
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Quote:
I had a really cunning plan for 19 c3, but I don't remember what it was!  As a correspondence player, my not taking good notes is a cardinal sin....


Thanks for the advice, Hgman!  I haven't played correspondence chess, but now I'm beginning to see the need for a good notebook (virtual or paper)!

If you have any other advice for correspondence novices, please share them!
  
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