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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6 (Read 129079 times)
HgMan
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #200 - 07/18/06 at 20:30:47
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It's easy to dislike 14 0-0-0 in retrospect, but I think White was right to want to get out from behind the pin.  Remember, too, that the simple 14 Rd1 leaves the c-pawn unprotected, which means White has to address that even if there is no pin involved along the c-file. 

I remember at the time spending a bit of time looking at 14 Bd3 Nge7, but even then I felt that 15 0-0-0 was probably White's best.  All in all, White's position may have looked easier to play, but I think Black set White enough problems to worry about all the same...
  

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OstapBender
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #199 - 07/18/06 at 19:23:02
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/18/06 at 19:14:37:
I know I'm beginning to sound like a one-note piano on this, but if White was really going to centralise his king so soon after going through all this, why on earth did he castle instead of just playing 0-0-0?  Oh well.

Clearly you must be right here unless somehow Rd1 (instead of 0-0-0) gave Black extra options that would have allowed him to avoid the Ke1-instead-of-Kc1 version of the current position.  

To state the obvious (sometimes I think I should change my name to Gilligan  Roll Eyes) I guess we start analysis of this by taking the game line with 14.Rd1 substituted for 14.0-0-0 and look for improvements for Black that take advantage of the different king position.

Edit:  After 14.Rd1 Nge7 the game immediately has to follow a different path since the c3-knight is pinned ruling out 15.Ne2 played in the game after 14.0-0-0 Nge7.  So it doesn't look like it's nearly as simple a comparison as I suggested above.

Cheers,
'Gilligan'   Embarrassed
  

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Smyslov_Fan
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #198 - 07/18/06 at 19:14:37
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I know I'm beginning to sound like a one-note piano on this, but if White was really going to centralise his king so soon after going through all this, why on earth did he castle instead of just playing 0-0-0?  Oh well.
  
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OstapBender
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #197 - 07/18/06 at 17:24:15
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1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20.Nxd4 Nc6

current position

Threatening 21...Nxd4.  HgMan has pointed out that 21 Nxc6 is not possible on account of 21 ... Bxc6, which threatens 22...d4 (with discovery hitting h1) and at least an equal game for Black.
(http://www.chesspub.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1151070318/180#187)

Moves under consideration are 21.Kd2, 21.Bc2, 21.Bb1, 21.Nc2.  Anything else (21.Nf3)?

I starting thinking about 21.Ne2 (with the idea of avoiding the knight exchange, then supporting the f5 push with Ng3) but I think that 21...d4 could be a good reponse: e.g., 22.c4 Nb4 and if 23.Nxd4 (what else?) 23...Nxd3+ 24.Rxd3 Rxc4+.  If this is undesirable for White, then the same variation would rule out 21.Nf3.  After 21.Nc2 d4 22.c4 Black doesn't have 22...Nb4 so it looks like ...d4 is not a problem here.  Still, I'm not sure I like 21.Nc2 because the knight needs to get to e3 to support the kingside play, and after something like 21...Ke7 22.Kd2 (I don't like 22.Ne3 because of 22...d4) it is now White's pieces that look tangled up and Black might have time to generate counterplay (22...f6 looks plausible) before White can get any kingside activity underway.  

I also don't like the look of 21.Kd2 Nxd4 22.cxd4.

So, in my mind the only candidates are the two bishop moves.  Knight moves other than 21.Nc2 could came back into consideration if 21...d4 proves, upon closer inspection, to be less threatening than it appears at first glance.
« Last Edit: 07/18/06 at 19:16:25 by OstapBender »  

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HgMan
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #196 - 07/18/06 at 15:13:15
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/18/06 at 14:33:26:
If the whole point of c3 was to be able to retreat the B, then perhaps now is the time to do it with Bc2.  What am I missing that it's not even a candidate move?  It seems to me that White still has a pull as long as he controls d4.


Only my myopia.  Roll Eyes  I don't know why I left out 21 Bc2 earlier.  Mind you, after 21 ... Nxd4 22 Rxd4 (22 cxd4 looks terrible) Ke7, I don't know what kind of pull White is claiming.

At the same time, the king wants to start to migrate toward the center of the board, so 21 Kd2 isn't so bad.  I may have been unduly influenced by Willempie's recommendation of the move earlier.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #195 - 07/18/06 at 15:05:25
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I will check both this evening, plus Bc2 though I dislike it for esthetical reasons.

PS Smyslov_Fan, I was a bit disappointed about your french game. I saw a nice quote from Henry V in one of the other games. So I was kinda hoping for some French taunts against Ostap in Monty Python style (yes I watched the holy grail again this weekend).... Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #194 - 07/18/06 at 15:04:19
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 07/18/06 at 14:33:26:
If the whole point of c3 was to be able to retreat the B, then perhaps now is the time to do it with Bc2.  What am I missing that it's not even a candidate move?  It seems to me that White still has a pull as long as he controls d4.

Bc2 serves the duel purpose of bringing the rook into contact with d4 and breaking the latent pin on the c3-pawn, both of these strengthen d4.  This makes a lot of sense to me.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #193 - 07/18/06 at 14:33:26
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If the whole point of c3 was to be able to retreat the B, then perhaps now is the time to do it with Bc2.  What am I missing that it's not even a candidate move?  It seems to me that White still has a pull as long as he controls d4.
  
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #192 - 07/18/06 at 13:43:01
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I don't think I want to take off another pair of knights, but it may come to that.  I'm a little bothered by 21 Kd2 Ke7 22 Rhg1 (22 Rhe1 is no picnic, either). 

It might, however, be worth revisiting the doubled b-pawn ending.  22 ... Bb5 23 Bxb5 axb5 with Rc8-c4 to follow looks as though Black could hold...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #191 - 07/18/06 at 13:34:17
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HgMan wrote on 07/18/06 at 13:28:31:
Loath as I am to help an opponent, your N on d4 is en prise at the moment, ruling out 21 Rhg1 and 21 f5.

Oops, now you all know why I lose games Grin
Quote:
It seems to me that the candidates are 21 Kd2 and 21 Nc2 (which I don't think works...).

21 Nxc6 is no good (see above).  21 Kb1 can't be better than 21 Kd2 (the king seems to be going the wrong way)...

I'll have to check on the knight exchange indeed. I didnt think it was a major worry, but I could be wrong.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #190 - 07/18/06 at 13:28:31
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Willempie wrote on 07/18/06 at 12:51:55:
Hmm, time to recheck my analysis from a few days back.
21. Kd2, Rhg1 or maybe f5 are under consideration.


Loath as I am to help an opponent, your N on d4 is en prise at the moment, ruling out 21 Rhg1 and 21 f5.

It seems to me that the candidates are 21 Kd2 and 21 Nc2 (which I don't think works...).

21 Nxc6 is no good (see above).  21 Kb1 can't be better than 21 Kd2 (the king seems to be going the wrong way)...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #189 - 07/18/06 at 13:26:34
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HgMan wrote on 07/18/06 at 12:27:49:
So I guess I should play the simple:
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20 Nxd4 Nc6

And we've transposed to 18...Nac6 19.c3 Nxd4 20 Nxd4 Nc6 considered earlier.  18...Nec6 created new possibilities to think about, but ultimately wound up in the same place as the more straightforward 18...Nac6.

For White now: I know that moving the N from d4 is very unappealing, but I worry about allowing the second pair of knights to be exchanged (but I may be the only one with this worry).  I think good bishop vs. bad bishop is often more difficult to win than knight vs. bad bishop (I may also be the only one who thinks this is true; I still have a lot to learn about endings!)
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #188 - 07/18/06 at 12:51:55
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Hmm, time to recheck my analysis from a few days back.
21. Kd2, Rhg1 or maybe f5 are under consideration.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #187 - 07/18/06 at 12:27:49
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I don't think I'd want to go near that endgame.   Lips Sealed  22 Rdf1 is enough to put me off.

Perhaps 20 ... Ke7 is the culprit.  Maybe the boring 19 c3 Nxd4 20 Nxd4 Nc6 is better.  21 Bb1 (I haven't looked at 21 Kd2 or Kb1 carefully yet, though challenging on open the c-file might be enough to dissuade me from exchanging the second pair of knights) Nxd4 22 Rxd4 Bb5 looks okay for Black.  With the King still on e8, the piece sacrifice I mentioned last night is also ruled out.  So maybe I was tilting at windmills: this takes us back to where Ostap had us before I insisted that 18 ... Nec6 was a better move rather than just a mere transpositional one.  Undecided  I suppose it showed White some different patterns along the way.  None of them dangerous, apparently.

I've been looking for some time to put a knight on e4, but I can't see how it would work.  The immediate 19 ... b5 20 Kb1 Nb7 21 f5 doesn't really appeal and neither does 19 ... Ke7 20 Nc2 (why not transfer the knight to e3 and prevent the exchange?) b5 21 Kb1 Nb7 22 Ne3 Nc5, which appears to favor White after 23 Bc2.  There is 23 ... Na5 24 Nd4 Nc6 25 Rhe1 Nxd4 26 Nxd4 a5, but White is being far too accommodating (25 Rhg1 is much better).

So I guess I should play the simple:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20 Nxd4 Nc6

(Again, assuming Willempie will choose to recapture, though you're most welcome not to  Wink)

21 Nxc6 is not possible due to the peculiar 21 ... Bxc6, which threatens d5-d4 and at least an equal game for Black.  Black's game is fairly straightforward (not easy, but straightforward).  The king will come to e7, and the rooks will look for counterplay along the c-file while White tries to get his kingside going.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #186 - 07/18/06 at 10:59:17
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OstapBender wrote on 07/18/06 at 05:48:43:
Here's a specific line illustrating the bishop exchange idea I alluded to above:
22.Rdf1 Nc6 23.Nxc6+ (I don't think 23.Kd2 Nxd4 24.cxd4 looks any better, but maybe White might has other options here?) 23...Rxc6 24.Kd2 (24.f5 25.d4) and now 24...Bb5 leads to the desired exchange 25.Bxb5 axb5

After something like 26.f5 Rc4 27.a3 (to prevent 27...b4) 27...Re4 I guess White is still better, but I don't see an obvious winning plan (maybe someone else does?).  I think Black should have good chances to draw here.

There may be improvements for White in this line, and I'm not entirely sure of my assessment of the final position, but I thought I'd put this forward for discussion regarding positions where White has a rook on f1.

I looked a lot at the "double b-pawn endgame" and I think that in most cases it is an easy win for white. I cant really give specific variations, but some general ideas.
-With rooks on I have the opportunity to hammer on with the kingside pawns, without allowing any counter play. This would tie the black pieces to the kingside thus leaving open the queenside for the king or rook.
-The pawn ending itself I think is dead lost for black as the white king can eat its way up the b-file.
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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