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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6 (Read 71610 times)
HgMan
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #20 - 06/29/06 at 15:30:30
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It might be worth testing 6 h4 h5 7 Be2 here, but not on my watch!   Grin

What does White have after 6 h4 h5 7 Be2 g6 ?  I could be wrong, but I don't like the looks of 8 g4, and now White needs to find a home for his kingside knight (which needs to come to e2).  It seems to me that 7 Nge2 is likely better, as the knight will jump to g3 and challenge bishop and pawn.  7 Nge2 e6 8 Ng3 and now Dreev won with 8 ... Bg6 and lost with 8 ... g6, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss 8 ... g6.  After 9 Nxf5 exf5, Black gives up the bishop pair, but all his pawns are on light squares, and I don't see White making progress on the kingside.  I'd be worried about a White knight coming to f4 (Nc3-e2-f4), but I think Black should be able to parry that.  It also seems to me as though Black should advance c6-c5 and get the thematic central break sooner rather than later.  I expect this should be fully viable for Black, but I'd need to look at the position a little more carefully, and would welcome further conversation on this point.

Instead, I prefer the more staid plan after ... h6, which is more to my liking.

1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 a6 5 Be3 Qc7 6 h4 h6

I don't think that 6 g4 really challenges Black, but rather plays into his hands a little.  There's something to the rule that White should postpone advancing g2-g4 if the bishop can return to d7.  Looking at the database, Black's plan is a simple one after retreating the bishop: play e7-e6 and strike out with c6-c5, undermining White's center, but maybe 7 g4 has a little more sting...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #19 - 06/29/06 at 15:06:01
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Here's the Smirnov-Riantsev game I alluded to.

[Event "RUS-ch U20"]
[Site "Vladimir"]
[Date "2002.03.09"]
[Round "8"]
[White "Smirnov, Pavel"]
[Black "Riazantsev, Alexander"]
[Result "1/2-1/2"]
[ECO "B12"]
[WhiteElo "2510"]
[BlackElo "2511"]
[PlyCount "40"]
[EventDate "2002.03.01"]

1. e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 Bf5 4. Nc3 a6 5. Be3 Qc7 6. h4 h6 7. g4 Bd7 8. h5 e6 9. f4 c5 10. Nf3 cxd4 11. Nxd4 Nc6 12. Bg2 Bb4 13. Qd3 Nge7 14. O-O Nxd4 15. Bxd4 Nc6 16. Bf2 Ne7 17. Bd4 Nc6 18. Ne2 Nxd4 19. Nxd4 Bc5 20. Qe3 Bxd4 1/2-1/2

Black held a draw, but I think White had a bit of an edge out of the opening.

6...h5 is more popular and perhaps better, but the 7.Be2 idea is untested as far as I know. (let's test it here!)
  

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Willempie
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #18 - 06/29/06 at 14:42:37
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I have looked at 6.g4 in some detail, but I find it too similar to the 4..Qb6 line I play myself as black and I think a timely h5 by black kills all my fun. Plus I dont want to scare away my opponent Wink

So:
1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 a6 5 Be3 Qc7 6 h4

The idea remains 6 h4 h5 7 Be2. I tried to find anything on it, but couldnt so I think I have to think for myself for a change Undecided

@Ostapbender, thanks for the suggestions (the line you give follows my idea quite closely). Though I am fairly disappointed that some guy named Riazantsev came up with the same idea, there goes my opportunity for eternal glory with a variation named after me Grin
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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OstapBender
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #17 - 06/29/06 at 14:04:55
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Willempie wrote on 06/29/06 at 08:17:20:
Quote:
6.h4 (6...h5 7.Bd3)

I am looking into that one, though I prefer 7. Be2, this would maybe force 7.. g6


In the game Smirnov-Riazantsev, Russia 2002 (inf 84/65), Riazantsev answered 6.h4 with 6...h6 and gave the variation 6...h5? 7.Be2+.  I looked at this position and couldn't believe that + could possibly be a correct assessment.  One thing that could be said about 7.Be2, compared to the immediate 6.Be2, is that it develops a piece with gain of tempo since Black must now protect the h5-pawn (as you mentioned).

In other places where 6.h4 is mentioned 6...h5 is given as the correct response while 6...h6 (as played by Riazantsev) is considered too passive but these other sources do not consider Riazantsev's suggestion of 7.Be2 (only 7.Bd3 and 7.Nge2 are mentioned).

From the perspective of trying to learn something about the theory of this line, I like the idea of giving 6.h4 h5 7.Be2 a test.  A sample line is 7...g6 8.Nf3 Bg7 9.Qd2 where White has a lead in development and is ready to castle on either side.  I'm not sure this is a good plan for White and there is plenty of variation possible for either side, but it looks like it could lead to an interesting game...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #16 - 06/29/06 at 08:58:29
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OstapBender wrote on 06/29/06 at 04:49:30:
Oh, and one other thing...

Willempie wrote on 06/28/06 at 16:04:48:
A move a day seems like a nice tempo to try to reach, though during weekends I may be forced to spend my attention to non-chess related things, like girlfriends and the likes Wink


Willempie, how many girfriends do you have?  Cool


You know what these crazy Dutch are like with their free love and all that ...  Wink
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #15 - 06/29/06 at 08:17:20
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OstapBender wrote on 06/29/06 at 04:49:30:
Some preliminary thoughts:

6.Bd3 (6...Bxd3 with 7.cxd3 followed by 8.Rc1)

Looked at that and didnt like it, I dont like missing that bishop, though in these advance structures it often doesnt end up doing much.
Quote:
6.h4 (6...h5 7.Bd3)

I am looking into that one, though I prefer 7. Be2, this would maybe force 7.. g6
Quote:
Simple development: 6.Be2 followed by 7.Nf3 and 8.0-0 (a variant might be 7.f4 followed by Nf3 and 0-0).  The reasoning here is that White has a space advantage so why offer the light square bishop exchange?

I like this idea, but am unsure what to do with the other knight.
Quote:
Other moves like 6.Nge2 (intending Ng3) and 6.g4 have been played and have some logic to them, but practical results seem to favor Black.  I haven't looked through the games to see if these moves were really the culprit, though.

Currently checking 6.g4, I kinda like the idea that black has wasted 1.5 moves, to get a position I dislike from the french advance (g4 and f4 on your kingside)
Quote:
Oh, and one other thing...

Willempie, how many girfriends do you have?  Cool

I refuse to answer that question on the ground that it may incriminate me.

No just one Wink
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #14 - 06/29/06 at 04:49:30
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Some preliminary thoughts:

6.Bd3 (6...Bxd3 with 7.cxd3 followed by 8.Rc1)

6.h4 (6...h5 7.Bd3)

Simple development: 6.Be2 followed by 7.Nf3 and 8.0-0 (a variant might be 7.f4 followed by Nf3 and 0-0).  The reasoning here is that White has a space advantage so why offer the light square bishop exchange?

Other moves like 6.Nge2 (intending Ng3) and 6.g4 have been played and have some logic to them, but practical results seem to favor Black.  I haven't looked through the games to see if these moves were really the culprit, though.

Oh, and one other thing...

Willempie wrote on 06/28/06 at 16:04:48:
A move a day seems like a nice tempo to try to reach, though during weekends I may be forced to spend my attention to non-chess related things, like girlfriends and the likes Wink


Willempie, how many girfriends do you have?  Cool
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #13 - 06/28/06 at 20:41:11
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1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 a6 5 Be3 Qc7

5 Be3 seems to be theory's favorite at the moment.  5 g4 Bd7 6 f4 looks interesting; 5 b4!? looks ugly, but aggressively so.  I have a correspondence game that went 5 h4 h5 6 Nge2, though 6 Bd3 might be more common here.

After 5 Be3, Black seems to have two main choices: 5 ... Qc7 and 5 ... e6.  Dreev got clobbered in a match with Sutovsky in the former, while Karpov won with the latter.  Normally, I would be inclined to follow Karpov, but I think that 5 ... Qc7 might be the more principled response.  First, Black maintains the option of retreating his bishop to d7.  Second, 4 ... a6 prevented White from harassing the Black queen on c7 with Nc3-b5.  Third, Black's plan is to weaken White's center.  While 4 ... Qb6 seeks to apply pressure to d4, 5 ... Qc7 looks to put pressure on e5, thereby holding up White's kingside advance.  Most importantly, however, play seems to become chaotic after 5 ... e6 (or indeed 4 ... e6), and Black's kingside pawn structure frequently gets shattered.  Since I play the Caro in order to enjoy its solid pawn structure, 5 ... Qc7 strikes me as the more sensible choice.  With that in mind, my job is to hold off Willempie's onslaught, and if I can't do that in the less chaotic line, then maybe 4 ... a6 doesn't have anything going for it...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #12 - 06/28/06 at 20:00:41
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My one and only game with this went 5.g4 Bd7 6. f4. This is supposed to be falling in with black's plan, but very difficult to play against.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #11 - 06/28/06 at 19:10:57
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So we've gotten underway.  This is great!  It may be difficult to draw in the kind of participation of the BDG challenge games (few opening lines are able to generate such strong opinions on both sides of the board!), but hopefully there'll be enough to generate some good analysis.

5.Be3 seems like the most important move theoretically and a good, solid choice.

I'm still strangely attracted to 5.g4 though [5...Bd7 (5...Bg6 6.e6!?) 6.Bd3]  Smiley

  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #10 - 06/28/06 at 18:39:14
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b4 still looks tempting, but I think a5 can become nasty (5 b4 e6 6 a3 a5).
So I will stick with what the majority seems to play:
1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 a6 5 Be3

Those queen moves suggested by Ostap dont look that good to me, though Dreev seems to have played 5..Qc7
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #9 - 06/28/06 at 16:04:48
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Currentlyb looking at the position. 5.b4 seems nice to me so far eg, 5.b4 e6 6.a3 followed by Na4-c5, still checking tough.

I prolly have the move with some analysis this evening Smiley

A move a day seems like a nice tempo to try to reach, though during weekends I may be forced to spend my attention to non-chess related things, like girlfriends and the likes Wink
  

If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through.
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #8 - 06/28/06 at 15:21:27
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MNb may well be right.  As in many of these sharp, Advance lines, White plays for a strong attack on the kingside, while Black looks to undermine White's center.  4 ... a6 does little to defend Black's kingside, but it should be a rather useful move in keeping White out of the center and inhibiting my work there and on the queenside.  That said, it's unclear as to whether Black can afford to waste a move like this.

I must admit, I'm less interested in the result of the game than in the process (how's that for hedging one's bets!  Wink).  I look forward to learning about this line and determining whether I want to play it again...
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #7 - 06/28/06 at 02:13:31
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My fully inexperted opinion, as I don't know anything of this variation: White will win. Moves like 4...a6 should not remain unpunished. The thought, that my predictions hardly ever come true, can serve as a consolation.
I wish you both a lot of pleasure and excitement and will follow the game closely.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #6 - 06/27/06 at 22:08:58
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1 e4 c6 2 d4 d5 3 e5 Bf5 4 Nc3 a6

Willempie (and others!):

Here is the starting position.  Do we need to set any ground rules?  All suggestions are welcome, and discussion of this line is the whole point.  I guess I am at rather a disadvantage as compared to Patrik in his BDG games insofar as I do not know this line particularly well, but I'm looking forward to learning.  I will try to manage at least a move a day on my part, but I am quite busy at work...

Good luck, though, and I look forward to an interesting game!
  

"Luck favours the prepared mind."  --Louis Pasteur
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