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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6 (Read 71611 times)
HgMan
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #275 - 08/14/06 at 21:29:55
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28 Kc3 Kc7 29 Kb4 Kb6 30 f5 looks horrible.  I don't know how or why I overlooked 30 f5, but it certainly looks like I should avoid it.  One of the most obvious ways to do that is 28 ... f6, though I'm still looking at Smyslov_Fan's 28 ... Ra8 as well...
  

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HgMan
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #274 - 08/14/06 at 21:22:15
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Well, if the position is correct, I'd better resign--or hope that Willempie gives up in confusion.  I'm two rooks down, but I have two kings on the board...   Grin

I will probably accept the conditional, but need to reflect a little and try to regain the thread.  Welcome back...
  

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OstapBender
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #273 - 08/14/06 at 14:54:33
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1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20.Nxd4 Nc6 21.Kd2 Nxd4 22.cxd4 Bb5 23.Bxb5 axb5 24.Rc1 Rc4 25.Kd3 Kd7 26.b3 Rc6 27.Rxc6


current position


with conditional moves: 27...bxc6 28.Kc3

[Edit: deleted a couple of extraneous letters in the FEN notation (due to a careless cut and paste, 7r was preceeded by 4k which dropped a black rook and gave and extra black king!).  This should fix the diagram. Sorry!  Embarrassed]

« Last Edit: 08/14/06 at 21:40:45 by OstapBender »  

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Willempie
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #272 - 08/14/06 at 10:35:36
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I checked 27... Kxc6 but that looks really bad after 28. f5 so if HgMan accepts the recapture with the pawn then we'll get:

1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20.Nxd4 Nc6 21.Kd2 Nxd4 22.cxd4 Bb5 23.Bxb5 axb5 24.Rc1 Rc4 25. Kd3 Kd7 26. b3 Rc6 27.Rxc6 bxc6 28.Kc3
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #271 - 08/14/06 at 10:18:30
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Also checked 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20.Nxd4 Nc6 21.Kd2 Nxd4 22.cxd4 Bb5 23.Bxb5 axb5 24.Rc1 Rc4 25. Kd3 Kd7 26. b3 Rc6 27.Rxc6 bxc6 28.Kc3 Kc7 29. Kb4 Kb6
This looks even stronger to me for white as 30. f5 looks like an improved version of 29. f5 which is also very good. eg 30. f5 Ra8 31. a3 Ra7 32. Rf1

Therefore I am tempted to think 28... Ra8 may be best.

So after these considerations without further ado I will accept HgMan's conditional moves and move into the single rook ending:
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20.Nxd4 Nc6 21.Kd2 Nxd4 22.cxd4 Bb5 23.Bxb5 axb5 24.Rc1 Rc4 25. Kd3 Kd7 26. b3 Rc6 27. Rxc6

  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #270 - 08/14/06 at 09:08:32
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OK I have looked at a couple of the variations (quite some good analysis abound) and thought I saw a minor improvements.
After
1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5 4.Nc3 a6 5.Be3 Qc7 6.h4 h6 7.g4 Bd7 8.h5 e6 9.f4 c5 10.Nf3 cxd4 11.Qxd4 Nc6 12.Qb6 Qxb6 13.Bxb6 Bb4 14.0-0-0 Nge7 15.Ne2 Ba5 16.Bxa5 Nxa5 17.Ned4 Rc8 18.Bd3 Nec6 19.c3 Nxd4 20.Nxd4 Nc6 21.Kd2 Nxd4 22.cxd4 Bb5 23.Bxb5 axb5 24.Rc1 Rc4 25. Kd3 Kd7 26. b3 Rc6 27.Rxc6 bxc6 28.Kc3 Kc7 (HgMan's preferred option)
29.f5 (Sacapawn) Kb6
I feel that
30. Rf1 may be an improvement:
30... Ra8 31. Kb2 and now I think:
-31... c5 32. fxe6 fxe6 33. Rf7 cxd4 34. Rxg7 d3 (to capture the a-pawn) 35. Kc3 Rxa2 36. Kxd3 and I think black is busted after a later Rg6 as now the e6-pawn falls with a check not present in the other variations. Eg 36... Rg2 37. Rg6 Rg3+ 38. Kd4 Rxb3 39. Rxe6+
-31... Ra7 32. f6 gxf6 33. Rxf6 and now I dont see anything to stop Rxh6 eg 33... c5 34. dxc5 Kxc5 35. Rxh6

[late addition]
31... exf5 32. gxf5 c5 runs into 33. f6 which was actually my original plan
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #269 - 08/14/06 at 06:15:13
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Hi All,

I am just back at work after a 2 week holiday, which was one week more than I had thought originally Cool
So my apologies to all and especially my opponent for the delay.

I will check the position and comments of all (some 3 pages on a quick glance) and deliver my move as quickly as possible.

PS thanks for the diagrams that will come in very handy.
  

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OstapBender
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #268 - 08/11/06 at 00:37:46
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Smyslov_Fan wrote on 08/11/06 at 00:36:06:
I'm not sure, isn't it White's move now?    Huh

Iirc, Willempie is on vacation at the moment.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #267 - 08/11/06 at 00:36:06
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I'm not sure, isn't it White's move now?    Huh
  
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #266 - 08/07/06 at 22:17:26
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Once again,

Thank You Ostap!

Your diagrams and cleaning up my text was really wonderful.  It made discussing my analysis and its flaws much easier.

I wish I had had more time when posting the original notes to clarify that even though they were lengthy, they weren't comprehensive. 

This is a very complicated position, and White's advantage may be real enough to win.  I am beginning to doubt it, but the comments so far haven't persuaded me one way or the other.

I love endgames!
  
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #265 - 08/04/06 at 01:40:53
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Sacapawn wrote on 08/04/06 at 01:08:39:
[29.f5 after which

29.-,Kb6 30.fxe6 fxe6 31.Rf1 c5 32.Rf7 b4+ 33.Kd3 Rg8 34.Re7

winning for White

In this line 31...c5 looks kind of dubious.  I think Black can improve with 31...Ra8 then after 32.Rf7 Rxa2 33.Rxg7 Rg2 34.Rg6 Rg3+ 35.Kd2

[35.Kc2 b4 36.Rxe6 (36.Rxh6 Rxg4=) 36...Rg2+ 37.Kd3 Rg3+ 38.Ke2 Rxg4=]

35...b4 36.Ke2 Rxb3 37.Rxh6 Kb5 I see Black holding this final position.
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #264 - 08/04/06 at 01:08:39
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Quote:
Thanks for this, though, as I said earlier, I think Black should prefer 28 ... Kc7, which avoids all of this..


Sorry, I didn't notice that post. I think White has good winning chances anyway.

29.f5 after which both

29.-,Kb6 30.fxe6 fxe6 31.Rf1 c5 32.Rf7 b4+ 33.Kd3 Rg8 34.Re7

and

29.-,Ra8 30.fxe6 fxe6 31.Rf1 c5 32.Rf7+ Kc6 33.dxc5 Rxa2 34.Re7 d4+ 35.Kxd4 Rd2+ 36.Ke3 Rb2 37.Rxe6+ Kxc5 38.Ke4 Rxb3 39.Re7

are winning for White
  
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #263 - 08/03/06 at 23:41:15
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HgMan wrote on 08/03/06 at 21:14:00:
Thanks for this, though, as I said earlier, I think Black should prefer 28...Kc7, which avoids all of this...

HgMan,

I'm still not convinced by 28...Kc7 because I don't like allowing White the passed a-pawn in your main line (as it diverts defensive resources away from the impending kingside pawn storm).  If a draw can be demonstrated in Smyslov_Fan's 28...Ra8 line, I think it could be a better way to go.  

In know, here we go again... Roll Eyes

Having learned my lesson earlier(?) ... Undecided

... I will withhold any further comments on the relative merits of the two lines until I have looked at your line more carefully (and have a better idea of the impact of the white passed a-pawn).  Lips Sealed
  

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HgMan
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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #262 - 08/03/06 at 21:14:00
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Sacapawn wrote on 08/03/06 at 16:58:08:
This looks promising for White

27.Rxc6 bxc6 28.Kc3 Ra8 29.Rh2 c5 30.dxc5 Kc6 31.Kb4 was analysed to draw by OstapBender in an earlier post. But 31.Kd4 blocking Black's d-pawn seems better. One variation is 31.-,b4 32.f5 Ra5 33.fxe6 fxe6 34.Rf2 Rxc5 35.Rf8 Ra5 36.Re8 Rxa2 37.Rxe6+ Kb5 38.Kxd5 Rd2+ 39.Ke4 Rb2 40.Rg6 Rxb3 41.Rxg7 and White wins.


Thanks for this, though, as I said earlier, I think Black should prefer 28 ... Kc7, which avoids all of this...
  

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Re: Caro Advance: 4 Nc3 a6
Reply #261 - 08/03/06 at 18:12:16
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Sacapawn wrote on 08/03/06 at 16:58:08:
This looks promising for White

27.Rxc6 bxc6 28.Kc3 Ra8 29.Rh2 c5 30.dxc5 Kc6 31.Kb4 was analysed to draw by OstapBender in an earlier post. But 31.Kd4 blocking Black's d-pawn seems better. One variation is 31.-,b4 32.f5 Ra5 33.fxe6 fxe6 34.Rf2 Rxc5 35.Rf8 Ra5 36.Re8 Rxa2 37.Rxe6+ Kb5 38.Kxd5 Rd2+ 39.Ke4 Rb2 40.Rg6 Rxb3 41.Rxg7 and White wins.

I should clarify that this was Smyslov_Fan's analysis.  I just tidied up his previous post and added a few diagrams (BTW, he owes me - BIG TIME! Wink).

I think your 31.Kd4 is a nice idea and I will try to look at variations in a bit more detail when I have more time - as will SF, no doubt. when he returns from his vacation.  I imagine HgMan will be analyzing this even sooner!

Here's the position after 36.Re8 in your line:

after 36.Re8


After a quick glance, I think White is already winning at this point.  If so, then the improvement for Black must come earlier.

Incidentally, my first thought was that 36...Rxa2 looked like an obvious blunder (after which Black is indeed slaughtered quickly), and  surely defending the e6-pawn with 36...Kd7 is better. However, after 37.Rg8 Rxa2 38.Rxg7+ Kc6 then 39.Rg6 looks absolutely crushing.

Maybe Black can improve on the ...b4/...Ra5/...Rxc5 plan (or look for improvements earlier in Smyslov_Fan's line). Undecided

Excellent contribution, Sacapawn!  If earlier improvements are found, you heads up may end up saving HgMan's life.  Otherwise, you may have just forecast his death... Shocked
(metaphorically speaking, of course)


[Edit: Taking another look, I think 34...Rxc5 is a blunder.  Black can improve with 34...Ra7 (since the white c5-pawn is not going anywhere it can be scooped up at a more opportune moment).  I don't know if this is enough to hold the position in the long run, but it's certainly a big improvement.  From here, my main line runs 35.Rf8 Rxa2 36.Rc8+ Kd7 37.Rg8 Rd2+ 38.Ke3 Rb2 39.Rxg7+ Kc6 40.Rg6 Kxc5 41.Rxh6 Rxb3+ 42.Kd2 Rg3 and I see Black holding this final position.  I doubt if this line represents best play, however.
One fiinal observation: if Black is not going to play 34...Rxc5 after all, then there's not much point to 32...Ra5.  Maybe another place for Black to look for an improvement.]
  

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